Current playerbase can't handle Timewalking dungeons level of difficulty?

[Surfd]

Given you managed to get to 30% with 50% armor, absorb shields, bone shield, & defile it likely ignores armor - a lot of physical abilities do that.

Now let's cover something with that in mind. It hits pretty much 100% of a tanks health before mitigation (your numbers, not mine). This never happened in wrath, so once again it's silly to expect ANYONE who hasn't done TW but did the original dungeon to be ready for that. All I hear about it from people is it smashing pug tanks into the ground.

You epeening because you managed to survive it (gratz, not hard as a DK regardless) is irrelevant because of the very numbers you bring forward. It's even more irrelevant because you went in KNOWING it's potential damage and making sure you had at least some light defensives up.

I never ment to imply that it was taking me down that much through ALL of my defensives at the same time, and I guarantee you it doesnt ignore armor. And no, a lot of physical abilities dont do that. Physical abilities that ignore armor are very few and far between.......

As a dk, you rotate through your defensives, so you dont have gaps where you are relying purely on base mitigation to survive stuff. You might have Bone shield up, or you might have defile up, or moderate self shield, but you generally dont have ALL of those up at the same time. And other tanks have more different mitigation mechanics besides. I know I lose out on a lot of extra armor that Paladin / Warrior tanks get for having a shield, and I cant block, so there is different mitigation right there.

As for how much damage he hit for in Wrath, when it was live, and you didnt out gear it: He still hit like a fucking truck with smash. He may not have hit for 100% of a tanks hp (in raw, unmitigated damage), but it was probably pretty damn close. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE MECHANIC: You ate a big hit, then kited him around while he enraged.

Seriously, I dont know how many times I need to explain this, but unless your tank is in absolutely crap gear, Tyrannus should never 1 shot a tank with Smash, unless your tank simply isnt actively mitigating at all, and is constantly sitting at half health or something............

[Arrashi]

TW isn't as much "hard" as it suffers from blanket adjustments, resulting in some abilities/damage sources being absurdly imbalanced, while others are too weak. Its clear that what they did is mostly put % change on things, rather than revisiting every mob/ability one by one.

[Raiju]

As for how much damage he hit for in Wrath, when it was live, and you didnt out gear it: He still hit like a fucking truck with smash. He may not have hit for 100% of a tanks hp (in raw, unmitigated damage), but it was probably pretty damn close. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE MECHANIC: You ate a big hit, then kited him around while he enraged.

And yet everyone else seems to echo this idea, couple this with your consistent ignoring of various points such as gear not scaling, the discrepancy between, and the fact you ONLY EVER TALK ABOUT DK WHEN MY POINT IS EXPLICITLY NOT (see I can caps spam too).

On top of this you used the wrong smash number. You are looking for heroic/ legacy which is 61262 to 68738 Physical damage.

If a tank is sitting there with 35k (I have 33k in Pit, assume it's just gear discrepancies between us) that means I need 50% mitigation to survive from 100%. My armor is going to be guaranteed less than 50% as I'm scaled down to ilvl 200. In other words, you need an absorb or some defensive (AM works) to survive that. Arguably with my passive bloood presence DR there's enough to just survive but we're talking sub 5% levels.

Dk's aren't a problem - artificial health increase and guarantee to have bone armor up for it, that's before our million cd's.
Paladins? RNG.
Warriors? Their better passive mitigation means they guarantee not dying... barely.
Monks? Not entirely sure on their current armor. Stagger should hold them
Druids? Given the amount of bugs in TW for them im surprised they didnt die walking into the instance.

Regardless it comes back to 80%+ smash that certainly didnt happen in wrath. We had stacked stam natively and passive mit such as block (or obscene hp for druids) back then. You were more afraid of the empower generally, although honestly when i levelled my paladin back then i just facetanked it. It was a nonissue in 215~ ilvl.

[Mercane]

I don't dislike it, but the health pools on bosses are nearly double what people see other bosses in the other WotLK time walking dungeons have.
The mechanics are far more unforgiving as well. I'm assuming it is like us being in basic heroic 5 man gear, entering the higher end ICC dungeon.
It feels kind of like being geared for a heroic dungeon and instead doing the next difficulty up.
Not the perfect comparison, but it feels like:
Scaled for Heroic > Running Mythic
Or
Scaled or Normal > Running Heroic

It seems to put people on edge, as when I get in there I'm usually a fill in for someone who either quit or was kicked.

Difficulty feels about right to me, sadly it seems the playerbase is used to out-gearing things and forgets the relative difficulty of dungeons during the first week of an expansion.

[Krom2040]

Difficulty feels about right to me, sadly it seems the playerbase is used to out-gearing things and forgets the relative difficulty of dungeons during the first week of an expansion.

I would also say the difficulty feels right for Pit of Saron and wrong for most of the other dungeons. At least in the sense that bosses take long enough to die that you at least see the mechanics; some of the bosses in other dungeons are down in 15 seconds and it doesn't even feel like a boss fight.

That said, I think the incoming tank damage is fairly punishing if you're not a level 100 tank with appropriate gear and enchants. I attempted to go into Pit in particular on my monk around level 87 or so in heirloom gear, and it wasn't pretty at all. I'm not sure why they even allow sub-100's to queue if they're going to seriously underperform due to gearing issues.

[Granyala]

Seriously, I dont know how many times I need to explain this, but unless your tank is in absolutely crap gear, Tyrannus should never 1 shot a tank with Smash, unless your tank simply isnt actively mitigating at all, and is constantly sitting at half health or something............

As someone who has both tanked and healed this encounter: There is no way that I can keep the tank up to 100% at all times. You won't have full HP every time smash hits. And as a Pally tank, you are subject to RNG.

So umm.. yeah. It still hits way to hard. Way harder than in wrath, I K N O W that because back in wrath I tanked AND healed him too (on crap geared alts, mind you). Yep it was a big hit. And the knockback made sure that the healer got time to top the tank off with 2 casts max (yeah try that with the shit healing changes today).

There were only 2 ways of dying to Tyrannus in Wrath as a tank: failing to kite him when POWER OVERWHELMING and DPS failing to hold their horses when they get the mark.

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

I don't mind explaining things, I just prefer to ask if people don't know the fight BEFORE we get there and explain, rather than wipe first and explain later. And nobody ever, ever speaks up.

People either don't care if they fail and make the group wipe, or they are afraid they will get kicked for saying they don't know what to do.

- - - Updated - - -

My problem as a healer(don't know if other healers agree or have the same issue) in the Wrath TW dungeons(atleast PoS and to a lesser extent Gundrak, Azjol-Nerub and Halls of Lightning) is that I have to spam Flash Heal to keep the tank/group alive. This isn't a fun way to heal for me. I'd rather see more slow, constant damage than spiky like in PoS.
If a tank or dps dies it's not because I'm not using the right heal or don't have enough intellect/spell power for the dungeon, but because I can't cast enough Flash Heals fast enough or because of global cooldowns. To me, this isn't fun gameplay.

I don't mind more difficult dungeons(as in start-of-Cata-dungeons), but I do think it's a problem when one stands out compared to the other dungeons in the same "dungeon cluster". People will expect to be able to slice through PoS just like they do in The Nexus or any TBC/Cata TW dungeon.

Another issue is that people can get low level gear to outgear these dungeons, and this will lead a lot of players to expect tanks/healers/whatever with normal level 100 gear to be able to perform as these overgeared(yes, they are overgeared) players.
Being able to overgear like this surely is fun for a lot of people, but I think Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot and making the experience for a lot of players that do not take part in the overgearing really crap - which is really bad considering TW is meant to be a place for people to catch up gearwise.

[Coldvibes]

The actual hilarious part about your post when you say that you have to spam Flash Heals...

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what people did back in the day in WotLK, bomb healing tanks.

[Granyala]

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what people did back in the day in WotLK, bomb healing tanks.

You and I remember wrath quite differently.

Also, spamming Flashheal rarely works because there is way too much AoE damage going around. "Frantically spamming everything you have and getting frustrated at the ridiculously weak AoE healing capabilities of today's healers" would be a more apt description.

I don't even want to imagine healing in legion with LESS skills and longer CDs auf abilities like Chakra solo heal instant.

Yes Blizzard... tie my hands behind my back even more... make everything a binary pass/fail w/o the ability of a healer to compensate properly for fails. >.<

[Deleted]

personally. as a tank eat stam food and stack higher stam. Just like what we did in wrath 100k hp tanks yello! (but more like 60k dk and druid tanks). That way tanks are just ready to be bombed healed the shit out off.
The rest dps and healers just get some tier gear that's just rocking their class for thoses lvls 110+(check t11-t18).

[Mercane]

I would also say the difficulty feels right for Pit of Saron and wrong for most of the other dungeons. At least in the sense that bosses take long enough to die that you at least see the mechanics; some of the bosses in other dungeons are down in 15 seconds and it doesn't even feel like a boss fight.

That said, I think the incoming tank damage is fairly punishing if you're not a level 100 tank with appropriate gear and enchants. I attempted to go into Pit in particular on my monk around level 87 or so in heirloom gear, and it wasn't pretty at all. I'm not sure why they even allow sub-100's to queue if they're going to seriously underperform due to gearing issues.

Yeah having non-100's in the group really hinders the group, especially for tanks.

[Cows For Life]

The actual hilarious part about your post when you say that you have to spam Flash Heals...

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what people did back in the day in WotLK, bomb healing tanks.

AOE heals were stronger and tanks took less damage because they had higher damage reduction base and much higher avoidance.

[diox990]

AOE heals were stronger and tanks took less damage because they had higher damage reduction base and much higher avoidance.

What? did you even play? AoE healing was limited to some classes. No healing rain or light of dawn for example, Paladins did mostly spam flash of light in raids and were exclusively tank healers. Cata brought more AoE healing spells.

And about tank damage, Ulduar bosses could two shot a tank that's why they had to change the formula for ICC bosses to deal damage faster but less spiky.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You guys have me reminiscing to when "Effective Health" was the most important stat for my DK.
Before Mastery. Before Blood Shield. My how those changed everything!

[Cows For Life]

What? did you even play? AoE healing was limited to some classes. No healing rain or light of dawn for example, Paladins did mostly spam flash of light in raids and were exclusively tank healers. Cata brought more AoE healing spells.

And about tank damage, Ulduar bosses could two shot a tank that's why they had to change the formula for ICC bosses to deal damage faster but less spiky.

My Circle of Healing and Wild Growth buttons would have disagreed with you. And we're talking about dungeons here. (PoH, Holy Nova, Rejuv spam) Didn't play a shaman but CH seemed pretty strong.

You're forgetting AOE heals used to heal for about 10x more.

[diox990]

My Circle of Healing and Wild Growth buttons would have disagreed with you. And we're talking about dungeons here. (PoH, Holy Nova, Rejuv spam) Didn't play a shaman but CH seemed pretty strong.

You're forgetting AOE heals used to heal for about 10x more.

Chain heal was really strong after ToC when you had enough haste to put it under 1.9 cast time so if you're talking dungeons then most of them were already outdated when it became viable, also as i said AoE was limited to SOME classes.

[Cows For Life]

Chain heal was really strong after ToC when you had enough haste to put it under 1.9 cast time so if you're talking dungeons then most of them were already outdated when it became viable, also as i said AoE was limited to SOME classes.

They also lacked cooldowns. So in conclusion AOE healing was in fact much stronger and potent. I know this because I actually played. Clearly you didn't.

[Musta Kyy]

The run smoothness depends completely on people having good TW gear for it.
25 sockets + legendary weapon = easy >10k dps.
WoD Baleful/PvP gear = 2-3k

A well geared combat rogue can solo mob packs in couple seconds with legendary cloak and daggers.

Mobs have global cooldowns too. If it takes you 15 seconds per mob pack instead of 3 it is going to feel very different.

[Deleted]

From the huge part of this thread the only complains come from people who play their tanks in TW. How they "carried" the group. How they did 60-80% of the damage and the healing. And how every other dps and healer sucked. How they did 2-3k dps.
Almost the same for healers - how the "stupid" tank chain pulled everything and died because he didn't "bother" to use defensive CDs or how X moron stood in fire... etc etc.
I can say almost the same thing when i tried to tank TW on my DK or when i tried to heal on monk. Everything died sooooooo slow. I said to myself "Screw dat im going rawrdps!".
From that moment onward i have a lot lot easy time in TW dungeons. Yes the ques are longer, but atleast i don't have those problems. When dealing 4 times the normal damage with TW gear everything dies 4 times faster... If the tank mass pull - i go bananas on AoE and everything dies fast enough. Even if the tank dies i do enough damage to wipe the trash pack with kite (god bless chilblains and howling blast) and avoid group wipe. Yes Pit of Saron is tunned higher and i can't roflstomp anything there, but the undead mind control sure helps there a lot.
Overall if you have dps TW gear with 20-25 sockets you can annihilate everything and neither the tank's skill and gameplay nor healer's one will matter. The only thing that you will be dependent on will be the tank's pace of doing things. After that you will need 6 to 15 seconds to rawrroflstomp whatever he pull.

[Deleted]

You and I remember wrath quite differently.

Also, spamming Flashheal rarely works because there is way too much AoE damage going around. "Frantically spamming everything you have and getting frustrated at the ridiculously weak AoE healing capabilities of today's healers" would be a more apt description.

I don't even want to imagine healing in legion with LESS skills and longer CDs auf abilities like Chakra solo heal instant.

Yes Blizzard... tie my hands behind my back even more... make everything a binary pass/fail w/o the ability of a healer to compensate properly for fails. >.<

This is it. I was never spamming flash heal that much. In Wrath, PoM was instant for Disc, shielding was better, also there was Penance on CD ofc. Dispel without CD was also a huge thing compared to my crippled dispel now. I still want to hurt the people badly responsible for transferring that from PvP into PvE. Why are they always punishing the healers just because they think that healers are somehow "bored" with their job? Well, what about letting the healer DPS a bit if they cope that good with their healing job so they can be bored?

I am a bit afraid of Legion gameplay. My mage will lose decurse, my tanks will lose self-healing, my healers will be crippled even more. Excessive ability pruning is poison for an RPG.

Anyway, I only have seen the russian roulette with smash-onehit on my paladin tanks, no matter if I was fully healed or not (yes, I have 3 on different servers. don't ask why. I love paladin tanks...), but not with my DK or Monk tanks. I surely watch out on my usual active mitigation. But since this smash is a bit unpredictable, it's a problem to time the greater CDs.