My proposal for Frost Dk Class fantasy

[nathrizarri]

I do have couple ideas about how Frost DK fantasy could be improved. Although I have posted them in DK Legion discussion thread, when I look back what I wrote and felt like it needs to be shared with a larger spectrum of people. So here I am.

I believe, amongst 3 Death Knight specs, frost seems to be the one with the lowest identity. We are

“An icy harbinger of doom, channeling runic power and delivering vicious weapon strikes.”

Compared to

Blood: A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to sustain herself in the face of an enemy onslaught.

Unholy: A master of death and decay, spreading infection and controlling undead minions to do his bidding.

I think these talent introductions support my view. Current state of class identity can be summarized to “Plate wearing Frost Mage”

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I believe Frost has an amazing potential in terms of class fantasy, due to the Frostmourne, Arthas and Northrend. Epic line of “Frostmourne Hungers” can be implemented into our gameplay. First legion alpha had similar approach, tearing the soul of enemy and exploding after. Later they switched with Remorseless Winter, which I am happy. It has an amazing animation! Previous version of soul interaction was weak too. Such an iconic part of DK was basically an explosion, so thank you Blizzard, it was a good call. However, that was purely gameplay based. I felt bad for losing such an amazing identity with the removal of it.

I feel like we need to get rid of some of the core abilities haven’t been touched since the launch of Frost DK’s to create an enjoyable gameplay and strong ties with the origins of Frost DK.

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My influence is coming from Arthas(Heroes of the Storm), Nerubians, Frostmourne.

Gameplay will be about, Obliterating your enemies with brutal attacks, impaling the obliterated foes with Glacial Spikes, tearing their souls of them with Soul Reaper and Empowering your reforged Frostmourne with the harvested souls, granting extra runes for use.

Proposal 1:

Delete Howling Blast, Frost Strike, Runic Empowerement

Replace Howling Blast with Glacial Advance. Similar to Heroes of the Storm Arthas. Rime function can be preserved to disable us from spamming it.

Replace Frost Strike with Soul Reaper. Trap the soul fragments of enemies within the blades and empower them with X amount of souls, granting an extra rune for Single use(similar to runic longevity).

Revise talents based on these 3 core abilities.

Cold hearted Murderer: Obliterate

Lord of the Nerubian: Glacial Advance

Frostmourne Hungers: Soul Reaper.

Keep the Remorseless Winter, Summon Syndragosa.

Proposal 2

Remove Runic Empowerement

Replace Runic Empowerement with passive:

Frostmourne Hungers: Frost strike pierces enemy's soul, starting to freeze it. After landing X amount of frost strikes you can consume your enemy's soul with Soul Reaper.

Soul reaper deals equal damage of abilites used by Runic Empowered Runes. Purpose of this to make Frost have hit less but harder, cutting the rune flow and rewarding proper ability usage and downtime/reactive playstyle.

Name can be changed since our blades named Icebringer/Frostreaper. In my view, Frostreaper's name goes well with this. Icebringer freezes(Frost Strike), Frostreaper consumes(Soul Reaper).

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Hope you enjoyed it, I have submitted my ideas to Blizzard both with forum posts and tickets. I had couple suggestions before Cata that was taken into the gameplay therefor I am optimistic about these, If people like it too, we may get these changes going. Most of them already exist in the game so I wouldn’t expect them to be hard to implement.

[Clash the DK]

I agree with the premise that Frost feels less like a Death Knight these days and more like a Knight with Frost magic. The loss of the temporary ghoul, AotD, Soul Reaper, Necrotic Plague and our tier of self healing abilities has really watered down the spec thematically.

On the topic of Soul Fragments, you might want to check out the new Demon Hunter abilities, specifically Shattered Souls. Its seems that the "darkness" taken from Death Knights has been transferred to the DH class.

In regards to your ideas, I don't see RE going anywhere any time soon; The Devs just love that mechanic. And Frost Strike and Howling Blast shouldn't be removed because they are both iconic and useful abilities.

Soul Reaper had some flaws. But it was things that could be fixed. I would like to see something similar as an option in the talent grid.

Glacial Advance is an awesome niche ability. This is exactly the type of stuff we need as choices in the talent grid. I disagree that it should be baseline.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against maybe a reshuffling of our abilities to some extent. If Rime is to continue to interact with HB like it does in Alpha, then there is a good argument that Frost should have a ranged ability as their RP dump. In that type of scenario, maybe Frost Strike would cost two runes and proc Obliterate or something. I'm pretty flexible in how things are organized as long as everything functions properly and makes sense.

[Deleted]

the class fantasy of a frost dk i think about has already been ruined by making it DW, whenever i think about a plate class DW just dosnt seem right for it.

[Clash the DK]

the class fantasy of a frost dk i think about has already been ruined by making it DW, whenever i think about a plate class DW just dosnt seem right for it.

I don't have a problem with Warriors DWing. But true Knight classes, such as Paladins and DKs, should not dual wield (Shields for Paladins being the exception). In the case of the DK, we just look like Combat rogues.....ugh.

[nathrizarri]

I agree with the premise that Frost feels less like a Death Knight these days and more like a Knight with Frost magic. The loss of the temporary ghoul, AotD, Soul Reaper, Necrotic Plague and our tier of self healing abilities has really watered down the spec thematically.

On the topic of Soul Fragments, you might want to check out the new Demon Hunter abilities, specifically Shattered Souls. Its seems that the "darkness" taken from Death Knights has been transferred to the DH class.

In regards to your ideas, I don't see RE going anywhere any time soon; The Devs just love that mechanic. And Frost Strike and Howling Blast shouldn't be removed because they are both iconic and useful abilities.

Soul Reaper had some flaws. But it was things that could be fixed. I would like to see something similar as an option in the talent grid.

Glacial Advance is an awesome niche ability. This is exactly the type of stuff we need as choices in the talent grid. I disagree that it should be baseline.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not against maybe a reshuffling of our abilities to some extent. If Rime is to continue to interact with HB like it does in Alpha, then there is a good argument that Frost should have a ranged ability as their RP dump. In that type of scenario, maybe Frost Strike would cost two runes and proc Obliterate or something. I'm pretty flexible in how things are organized as long as everything functions properly and makes sense.

Thanks for the insight, appreciated. I see FS/HB as iconic as Frostbolt for a F.mage. To me, those abilities are purely made up with no backround, so does their function is easily replaceble.

My soul reaper proposal is to make it the baseline RP rump for Frost, not in a form of execute btw. Probably a flat %AP/weapon DMG but with the Soul interaction it will keep what Runic Empowerement offers(extra runes). We can have shadowmourne soul animation tied to the amount of souls we have to increase flavour.

Howling Blast doesn't do anything in terms of animations this leaves core rotation with Obli/Remorseless, I think we need to spice things up here and GA seem perfect filler with the animation it provides. I agree on GA'a niche but having as Talent may force people who really like it to go other choices based on the fight, which is the worst thing IMHO in a game where you want to have fun.

My approach here is purely fantasy based, proposed ideas will do the same thing what they challenge. As for your approach about FS with rune/range, I tried to keep that kind of thinking out of context to focus on bringing out Frost Death Knight's potential as a character.

Blades Glowing with KM etc.. List may go longer.

I think true way to reach the nirvana for fantasy is to dive into the core of abilities, why they are there, what they do? Now we are in a lucky spot due to our Hero Class history, our abilities are much more meaningful and related. What is the Frost stand for in our name? Using frost magic? Frost is directly connected to Northrend to me, not just basic frost attacks. As you look at other 2 DK specs, Blood and Unholy, those words enough say much about the spec, thanks to the abilities they have.

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Looking from a developers perspective to DW vs 2 hander, I feel like they went for DW and make it a "Frost" thing since we lack identity amongst other specs with our given abilities/talents.

[Clash the DK]

Thanks for the insight, appreciated. I see FS/HB as iconic as Frostbolt for a F.mage. To me, those abilities are purely made up with no backround, so does their function is easily replaceble.

My soul reaper proposal is to make it the baseline RP rump for Frost, not in a form of execute btw. Probably a flat %AP/weapon DMG but with the Soul interaction it will keep what Runic Empowerement offers(extra runes). We can have shadowmourne soul animation tied to the amount of souls we have to increase flavour.

Howling Blast doesn't do anything in terms of animations this leaves core rotation with Obli/Remorseless, I think we need to spice things up here and GA seem perfect filler with the animation it provides. I agree on GA'a niche but having as Talent may force people who really like it to go other choices based on the fight, which is the worst thing IMHO in a game where you want to have fun.

My approach here is purely fantasy based, proposed ideas will do the same thing what they challenge. As for your approach about FS with rune/range, I tried to keep that kind of thinking out of context to focus on bringing out Frost Death Knight's potential as a character.

Blades Glowing with KM etc.. List may go longer.

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Looking from a developers perspective to DW vs 2 hander, I feel like they went for DW and make it a "Frost" thing since we lack identity amongst other specs with our given abilities/talents.

You have to take functionality into consideration.

Howling Blast applies our Frost Fever to multiple targets and has a 30 yd range. That's a big deal. It's not just all about the damage. But speaking of damage, if Howling Blast and Glacial Advance were to be tuned to deal the same amount of damage, then HB is going to blow GA away because it is mechanically superior. How often do you have all targets lined up in a row?

Frost Strike deals pure Frost damage which bypasses armor and scales well with our Mastery. If you were to replace FS with Soul Reaper, would it still deal Frost damage? If it doesn't, then you destroy the value of our Mastery. But if it did, then what makes it different than Frost Strike at that point other than the name?

If you really feel like Glacial Advance should be baseline, then I would argue that switching places with Remorseless Winter would be a better solution. Not that I agree with that idea. Personally, I wouldn't mind if Frostscythe were the theoretical ability to switch places with RW because it could be implemented in a way that creates interesting synergy with our current mechanics. But that's another story.

Like I said before, I may not agree with your specific ideas, but I get what you're saying.

[nathrizarri]

You have to take functionality into consideration.

Howling Blast applies our Frost Fever to multiple targets and has a 30 yd range. That's a big deal. It's not just all about the damage. But speaking of damage, if Howling Blast and Glacial Advance were to be tuned to deal the same amount of damage, then HB is going to blow GA away because it is mechanically superior. How often do you have all targets lined up in a row?

Frost Strike deals pure Frost damage which bypasses armor and scales well with our Mastery. If you were to replace FS with Soul Reaper, would it still deal Frost damage? If it doesn't, then you destroy the value of our Mastery. But if it did, then what makes it different than Frost Strike at that point other than the name?

If you really feel like Glacial Advance should be baseline, then I would argue that switching places with Remorseless Winter would be a better solution. Not that I agree with that idea. Personally, I wouldn't mind if Frostscythe were the theoretical ability to switch places with RW because it could be implemented in a way that creates interesting synergy with our current mechanics. But that's another story.

Like I said before, I may not agree with your specific ideas, but I get what you're saying.

I think I have stated what you adressed on HB vs GA, functionality can easily be tuned to fill their roles, my goal is to have our abilities more present, tied with the backround.

Even we have a full physical RP dumb, stat balance still easily achievable by mastery rating>frost % bonus adjustment. My idea is to have Soulreaper do Shadowfrost damage, which is even better imo, still scaling with mastery and immune to resistances(not sure if resistances exist in meaningful content anymore but name sounds cool). Main difference between proposed Soul Reaper vs Frost strike is to achieve same stuff with different mentality/feel, which is what class fantasy is all about.

Frost Strike is a simple Runic Power spender that has a chance to energize a Rune based on the RP you spent in an RNG way.

Proposed Soul Reaper is a Runic Power spender which works as charging mechanism the more you use it to grant an Extra rune, regardless of your default 6 rune status. A mixture of WoD Blood Tap with Runic Longevity(7th rune option we had before).

I really appreciate your posts, you do not have to agree but you helped me to clear out some stuff that may not be understood from the first text I posted.

[Deleted]

If Frost Strike was removed it wouldn't hurt the value of mastery that much. If you take a look we have barely have any rotational/talented abilities that aren't frost damage. Obliterate and Breath of Sindragosa - that's it, Death Strike too but that's not rotational. You could make an argument for Avalanche but unless the numbers are tuned higher I seriously don't see that talent being relevant. Everything else deals frost damage, if anything Mastery is going to be too highly valued, probably even more than it is on live. Yes they've made changes to OB and KM but they're also adding a plethora of abilities and talents that deal ONLY frost damage or increase it respectively: Sindragosa's Fury, Glacial Advance, Remorseless Winter, Frostscythe (which isn't even a new ability by the way it's Wrath Howling Blast that deals weapon damage and doesn't interact with Rime, other than that it's the same), Frozen Pulse. Then factor in the talents and artifact traits that increase frost damage or the damage of abilities that deal frost damage; there are 12 of them (unless I've counted incorrectly, I may have overlapped with some abilities and talents). You get the idea anyway.

Frost DKs are, by Blizzard's class description, deliverers of "vicious weapon strikes". How many weapon strikes do we have? 4; FStrike, OB, DS, FScythe. How many are rotational? 2, possibly 3 depending on how strong Frostscythe is actually going to be. How many possible rotational abilities are not weapon strikes? 6. I'm all for class fantasy, but 3 vs 6 (call it 3 for arguments sake) for a spec that delivers vicious weapon strikes is a bit weak if they're trying to push and stick to class fantasy. Especially when Obliterate will eventually hit like a wet noodle as it always does. So that would leave 2 possibly 1 (again dependent on Frostscythe being good or not) weapon strike that'd be Frost Strike which while it is somewhat iconic it is not the most iconic ability of Frost DKs, that is and always has been Obliterate. Class fantasy is all well and good, but they're not strictly sticking to their guns with this one both mechanically and thematically.

Now as for suggesting abilities, I'm not particularly good at this and there's the whole what would I replace discussion. I'd add a weapon strike of some description that's baseline and works rotationally and obviously adds to the spec. As for souls, you could make a mechanic similar to Shadowmourne's. You could bake it into Obliterate and it would definitely keep Obliterate relevant but it'd be poor design because you just build 5 passive stacks with Obliterate then trigger with Soul Reaper for example for an explosion of souls.

Frigid Impale: You slam your blades together, reinforcing them as one in ice and pierce through the targets body dealing x% weapon damage (not sure whether to have to scale with Frost damage or KM etc.) and inflicting them with Frozen Soul. Cost? I'm not sure, maybe 40RP or something, on an 8-12 second CD and as it's a spear of sorts it can be thrown so I don't know, maybe a 20-30yd range which would give us a ranged RP dump.

Frozen Soul: The very core of your target's being is numbed and siphoned into your weapons increasing <insert AttSpeed/Haste/Crit etc.> by 5% for 15 seconds.

Just examples of course.

[nathrizarri]

If Frost Strike was removed it wouldn't hurt the value of mastery that much. If you take a look we have barely have any rotational/talented abilities that aren't frost damage. Obliterate and Breath of Sindragosa - that's it, Death Strike too but that's not rotational. You could make an argument for Avalanche but unless the numbers are tuned higher I seriously don't see that talent being relevant. Everything else deals frost damage, if anything Mastery is going to be too highly valued, probably even more than it is on live. Yes they've made changes to OB and KM but they're also adding a plethora of abilities and talents that deal ONLY frost damage or increase it respectively: Sindragosa's Fury, Glacial Advance, Remorseless Winter, Frostscythe (which isn't even a new ability by the way it's Wrath Howling Blast that deals weapon damage and doesn't interact with Rime, other than that it's the same), Frozen Pulse. Then factor in the talents and artifact traits that increase frost damage or the damage of abilities that deal frost damage; there are 12 of them (unless I've counted incorrectly, I may have overlapped with some abilities and talents). You get the idea anyway.

Frost DKs are, by Blizzard's class description, deliverers of "vicious weapon strikes". How many weapon strikes do we have? 4; FStrike, OB, DS, FScythe. How many are rotational? 2, possibly 3 depending on how strong Frostscythe is actually going to be. How many possible rotational abilities are not weapon strikes? 6. I'm all for class fantasy, but 3 vs 6 (call it 3 for arguments sake) for a spec that delivers vicious weapon strikes is a bit weak if they're trying to push and stick to class fantasy. Especially when Obliterate will eventually hit like a wet noodle as it always does. So that would leave 2 possibly 1 (again dependent on Frostscythe being good or not) weapon strike that'd be Frost Strike which while it is somewhat iconic it is not the most iconic ability of Frost DKs, that is and always has been Obliterate. Class fantasy is all well and good, but they're not strictly sticking to their guns with this one both mechanically and thematically.

Now as for suggesting abilities, I'm not particularly good at this and there's the whole what would I replace discussion. I'd add a weapon strike of some description that's baseline and works rotationally and obviously adds to the spec. As for souls, you could make a mechanic similar to Shadowmourne's. You could bake it into Obliterate and it would definitely keep Obliterate relevant but it'd be poor design because you just build 5 passive stacks with Obliterate then trigger with Soul Reaper for example for an explosion of souls.

Frigid Impale: You slam your blades together, reinforcing them as one in ice and pierce through the targets body dealing x% weapon damage (not sure whether to have to scale with Frost damage or KM etc.) and inflicting them with Frozen Soul. Cost? I'm not sure, maybe 40RP or something, on an 8-12 second CD and as it's a spear of sorts it can be thrown so I don't know, maybe a 20-30yd range which would give us a ranged RP dump.

Frozen Soul: The very core of your target's being is numbed and siphoned into your weapons increasing <insert AttSpeed/Haste/Crit etc.> by 5% for 15 seconds.

Just examples of course.

Thank you for sharing your ideas, It is really nice to see people coming up with ideas, wheter they are parallel to mine or not.

I think staying inside of Blizzard's talent description is what cripples us. What are we? Frosty Warrior? That was exactly what I wanted to tackle with the proposal. Uniqueness of Spec/Class is better be provided within itself, rather than mixing couple other Class/Specs identities. Take an Elemental Shaman vs Fire Mage for example. A mage always felt dull and boring due to how widespread it is but an Elemental Shaman is, in my view, unique with the abilities and what those mean, where they get their motivations from. Frost can be much, I mean much more. But we are currently Fury Warriors with Some Frost abilities there and there. Name "Frost" Imo should be more than the DMG type we deal, more about personality.

[Emophia]

Naw man fuck soul reaper as frost.

[Deleted]

soulreaper would be good if it didnt ahve a cooldown, and i think it should be like warriors execute and have a chance on hit to gai nyour haste

[nathrizarri]

soulreaper would be good if it didnt ahve a cooldown, and i think it should be like warriors execute and have a chance on hit to gai nyour haste

My proposal Soul Reaper has no cd, basically a runic power ability has an interaction with your blade and enemy's souls in a form of rune regeneration, with the visual animation of shadowmourne souls

[Fenrkyr]

While I can appreciate the desire for more of a necromancy feel in all DK specs, its not something that I really care too much about. I was initially attracted to DK's due to the "dark knight" feel and how the intro quest lines (and those in Northrend) emphasized the importance of the end results, with no concern for means, morality, etc.

Previously I had played a warrior and was/am completely invested on the physical attack style. I have no interest in casting spells, standing away from combat or anything short of brutal close quarters blade work. The old blood DPS was a perfect blend of brutal physicality, but with the added magical power of a DK. After that was removed 2h frost becaome the only DK spec that focused on in-your-face physical beat downs. Now that is removed too, and with the shift towards more and more frost damage I honestly don't think the class feels like a "knight" anymore. Like someone already mentioned, OB will eventually hit like a wet noodle, and the focus of the spec will be back on frost damage SPELLS. This is what bothers me about a DW only frost spec. Its fine to have weapon strikes and spells that are augmented by frost magic, but I never wanted to play some Harry Potter weakling that stands at a distance throwing pretty lights at the enemy. That doesn't feel like a knight at all. Might as well be a frost mage. I am all for developing and focusing on the frost theme overall, but without physical weapon strikes and close quarters slaughter the class isn't what I initially bargained for.

I guess what I am really sorry to lose (not that we have had a functional version for sometime) is a spec that can stand toe to toe with warriors and paladins, match them in physicality and weapon skill, and yet still include the soul-stealing, frost-warrior archetype. The old Blood DPS was perfect for this, having a heavy focus on weapons and physical damage but also engendering a heavy vampiric theme. It was the pinnacle of DK for me, and now frost feels more and more neutered and is looking more and more like a frost mage.

[Deleted]

I am all for developing and focusing on the frost theme overall, but without physical weapon strikes and close quarters slaughter the class isn't what I initially bargained for.

This. Exactly this.

Frost is by far my favourite spec and has been since ICC. Blood DPS was also thematically and mechanically very good. The base of a DK is something that should match a Paladin/Warrior for physicality, after all most were fallen Paladins, but carry a darker theme. They should be experts with their weapons and literally smash their foes into the ground and make them suffer. Then add your flavour with the specs. It seems like Blizzard have just generally lost sight of what a Death Knight actually is and what it means to people. DW or 2H makes no real difference to me, but weapon strikes being the bulk of your damage (in frosts case) and the bulk of your toolkit (in the case of all 3 specs) should be the focus. Then again, add your thematic flavour afterwards and build around that. There was a lack of Frost abilities in WoD, now we're just drowning in poor ones that are spells.

When I first started playing Frost I fell in love with how it was literally a killing machine; the idea was that you were a ruthless combatant, master of your runeblades and you obliterated all before you with frost augmented strikes - add in a sprinkle of frigid winds here and there (HB, IT etc.) and you've got a solid class theme, prune them away however (like now) and the class/spec seems lost. Obliterate was a cool ability with a sick name, I liked that. Obliterate also did what the name implies, in ICC it was one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game, I liked that as well. They nerfed it, brought in mastery and it devalued (I like mastery but not what they did to Obliterate). If it's not hitting hard how does it fit with the name of the skill or the theme of the class, how is it hitting like a wet noodle a "vicious" weapon strike?

[Fenrkyr]

I think most would agree that Obliterate is a shell of its former self. Can't really call something "obliterate" when it hits for such a pitiful amount of damage. Why does it still have such low %AP and weapon damage modifiers anyway? Hell most rogue abilities hit harder. Think about that. A chickenshit weakling with a couple of knives hits harder.

The sad thing is this isn't going to change in Legion. Rather than make OB live up to its name, currently the only reason OB will remain in our priority is to generate Rime procs. Without Rime OB will would just be a rune dump because everything else is on a CD.

[Emophia]

Soul reaper is such a shitty ability, it was fun in MoP as unholy because it hit like a god damned firetruck, but outside of that it's always been lame, especially as frost.

[nathrizarri]

Soul reaper is such a shitty ability, it was fun in MoP as unholy because it hit like a god damned firetruck, but outside of that it's always been lame, especially as frost.

But do you even read doe? Point here is not getting the old soul reaper back. Point is to have a new ability that is named soul reaper to support Frostmourne's soul blade fantasy.

BTW I always felt that KM would be much better if it had provided %100 extra damage instead of guaranteed crits, but that is Another topic.

[RuneDK]

Naw man fuck soul reaper as frost.

I don't hate it as frost, but even with it being shadowfrost damage I don't love it either.

[Nezia]

I think they just wasted all the potential that icebringer could have.

You see, frostmourne was a weapon who could strike enemies right into their souls, then steal and control it. They just wasted this factor in the artifact fantasy and made icebringer a popsicle machine who enpowers some of your frost spells and summons a lame "sindragosa" once every 5 mins.

So they did with the apocalypse weapon, when I first heard of it I though it would me some badass weapon based on the four horseman(perhaps having one epic hability based on each of them), but nah, it is just a weapon who enpowers your ghouls and makes you summon more ghouls, meh.

I tried almost every spec on alpha, and for some of them blizzard made a great job making you feel like that weapon is really empowering your character somehow, you remember all the time that you are using that weapon. But for some of them the weapon just feels like a passive thing who is just there for ... reasons, which is the case of frost dk.

[nathrizarri]

I think they just wasted all the potential that icebringer could have.

You see, frostmourne was a weapon who could strike enemies right into their souls, then steal and control it. They just wasted this factor in the artifact fantasy and made icebringer a popsicle machine who enpowers some of your frost spells and summons a lame "sindragosa" once every 5 mins.

So they did with the apocalypse weapon, when I first heard of it I though it would me some badass weapon based on the four horseman(perhaps having one epic hability based on each of them), but nah, it is just a weapon who enpowers your ghouls and makes you summon more ghouls, meh.

I tried almost every spec on alpha, and for some of them blizzard made a great job making you feel like that weapon is really empowering your character somehow, you remember all the time that you are using that weapon. But for some of them the weapon just feels like a passive thing who is just there for ... reasons, which is the case of frost dk.

Couldn't agree you more on what you said. Compared to some "made up" artifacts Frost has the most famous one on it's hands, yet we fail to see benefit of it, just it's name.