[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[Supliftz]

I wouldn't of done as much damage as I did with other talents compared to RT. You have no reason to cast RSK in a max hps rotation with FT/Mana Tea.

Anyway, I've said this in the monk discord, you simply cannot theorycraft RT without SoTC in mind. I understand blizzard asked for theorycraft without supporting talents, but 99.99% of the time you will be taking SOTC with RT. The talents simply work amazingly well with each other to not factor it in.

I'm also against looking at logs from non-mythic tests/without artifacts traits in mind, but I can't imagine a big variance happening with all traits in mind.

[Deleted]

I could make a case for Lifecycles being worse for mana than baseline mistweaver but then I'd be insulting any decently intelligent player who would let it effect their decision making so much as to become a false economy.

[Nyel]

I think it's not finished yet. The tooltip is vague and it's still not an interesting mechanic. Perhaps they implemented it but couldn't attach the mist generation to something in time so they just automatically made it generate a buff while in combat? Not sure, but I know this isn't the final intended version.

They could simply count our Mastery as the "clouds" that we need to enhance it.

[Tiphess]

I was wondering if we have the Serenity cd on the alpha ?

I just remembered that every time a new build went out with modifications on this spell it was listed for windwalker and mistweaver, yet i don't see this spell in the class's spells in the talent calculator?

[Geodew]

I wouldn't of done as much damage as I did with other talents compared to RT. You have no reason to cast RSK in a max hps rotation with FT/Mana Tea.

Anyway, I've said this in the monk discord, you simply cannot theorycraft RT without SoTC in mind. I understand blizzard asked for theorycraft without supporting talents, but 99.99% of the time you will be taking SOTC with RT. The talents simply work amazingly well with each other to not factor it in.

I'm also against looking at logs from non-mythic tests/without artifacts traits in mind, but I can't imagine a big variance happening with all traits in mind.

What synergy are you imagining? Even if you could BOK literally every cooldown (every other GCD) RT is still far behind MT/FT. RSK is just too expensive right now for RT to be amazing for HPS. (You can go look at the spreadsheet and see the difference between 5% and 50% BOK usage. It's not nearly enough.)

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I was wondering if we have the Serenity cd on the alpha ?

I just remembered that every time a new build went out with modifications on this spell it was listed for windwalker and mistweaver, yet i don't see this spell in the class's spells in the talent calculator?

No, often spells are listed for multiple Monk specs but only 1-2 specs actually have the ability.

[Tiphess]

Damn, sad life

aight then cant wait to see next build for new changes

[Totaltotemic]

What synergy are you imagining? Even if you could BOK literally every cooldown (every other GCD) RT is still far behind MT/FT. RSK is just too expensive right now for RT to be amazing for HPS. (You can go look at the spreadsheet and see the difference between 5% and 50% BOK usage. It's not nearly enough.)

Your assumptions in this analysis are that mana is always relevant, healing is always necessary, and that you will always use TFT for Vivify (which follows from the first two assumptions). These assumptions are incorrect for real playtesting environments.

[Geodew]

Your assumptions in this analysis are that mana is always relevant, healing is always necessary, and that you will always use TFT for Vivify (which follows from the first two assumptions). These assumptions are incorrect for real playtesting environments.

Even if you have 100% BOK usage and assume healing is relevant 0% of the time (i.e. don't factor in lost GCDs to RSK at all), it's still significantly worse than MT or FT. Also, RT's value DROPS if you don't use TFT for Vivify 100% of the time because using it for ReM is not as large of a healing gain, so this assumption actually HELPS RT. The only thing you mentioned that would shake up the tier is mana being irrelevant because (a) Mana Tea value goes to ~0 and (b) 2% mana cost of RSK is irrelevant. However, even then, to repeat myself, the lost GCDs are now trading Vivify for RSK instead of SooM for RSK, meaning you trade up to 3 Vivify casts (which equates to an average of at least 2 for typical fights) for an opportunity to cast 1 ReM instead of 1 Vivify (or 1 extra ReM during downtime), which is a drastic HPS loss for obvious reasons, such as the fact that half of ReM's power comes from its reduced Mana cost, which we're assuming is irrelevant.

[Totaltotemic]

Even if you have 100% BOK usage and assume healing is relevant 0% of the time (i.e. don't factor in lost GCDs to RSK at all), it's still significantly worse than MT or FT

Not worse because healing is relevant 0% of the time. If healing is not relevant at all, then healing cannot be worse. What you mean is if healing is not relevant during the RSK GCD which uncovers a temporal aspect of your analysis that is entirely missing, as you are dealing in absolutes rather than fluctuating values from second to second as they occur in normal gameplay.

Also, RT's value DROPS if you don't use TFT for Vivify 100% of the time because using it for ReM is not as large of a healing gain, so this assumption actually HELPS RT

If you use RT for Vivify 100% of the time you are gaining 0% healing, and in fact are losing healing. You have more mana at the end of the day, but you are doing less healing. If you want to do more healing, you cast Renewing Mist at a time when you would otherwise not have gotten meaningful healing out of Vivify because ReM would do healing at a different point in time (again, the temporal aspect).

The only thing you mentioned that would shake up the tier is mana being irrelevant because (a) Mana Tea value goes to ~0 and (b) 2% mana cost of RSK is irrelevant.

The ongoing theme is a temporal aspect that is a nuance your analysis lacks, and here it manifests as the assumption that if mana is not always relevant, then it must never be relevant. These are not the same things, which I thought was quite obvious from my explanation of the idea behind extended MW burst healing which centers entirely on the idea that mana is much more relevant when healing is relevant, and this can change throughout a fight instead of being constant from beginning to end.

This is an inherent flaw with using spreadsheets (or any extended calculation) as end-all fact. If you miss variables or make assumptions that are not always true, then you have flawed information in any situation where those assumptions do not hold or things change that are not included (such as the fact that ReM will do healing later and can contribute to a later burst window while free Vivifys do not increase burst HPS at all).

I never concluded that Rising Thunder was an HPS gain over taking the other talents (I thought it was clear that I was saying it wasn't a loss to use RSK if you have taken the talent... considering I was, in the same post, talking about a healing-focused option that whose purpose is literally only to do more healing), but I think the conclusion that it's a loss compared to FT is based on faulty conclusions drawn from a rigid framework of assumptions that doesn't lend itself to reality.

[Supliftz]

What synergy are you imagining? Even if you could BOK literally every cooldown (every other GCD) RT is still far behind MT/FT. RSK is just too expensive right now for RT to be amazing for HPS. (You can go look at the spreadsheet and see the difference between 5% and 50% BOK usage. It's not nearly enough.)

Isn't the synergy obvious? RT wants more RSK's from BoK resets, and SOTC gives you mana whilst you fish for resets.

FT/Mana tea don't have that active synergy.

[Geodew]

Isn't the synergy obvious? RT wants more RSK's from BoK resets, and SOTC gives you mana whilst you fish for resets.

FT/Mana tea don't have that active synergy.

I discussed the BOK resets already (it's a much smaller boon than you seem to think), and besides being potentially mana-starved with RT, RT's value is not increased just because your pool of available mana increased (you can still only convert mana to TFT uses so often, and the conversion rate has not changed). So there is no actual synergy there.

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Not worse because healing is relevant 0% of the time. If healing is not relevant at all, then healing cannot be worse. What you mean is if healing is not relevant during the RSK GCD which uncovers a temporal aspect of your analysis that is entirely missing, as you are dealing in absolutes rather than fluctuating values from second to second as they occur in normal gameplay.



If you use RT for Vivify 100% of the time you are gaining 0% healing, and in fact are losing healing. You have more mana at the end of the day, but you are doing less healing. If you want to do more healing, you cast Renewing Mist at a time when you would otherwise not have gotten meaningful healing out of Vivify because ReM would do healing at a different point in time (again, the temporal aspect).



The ongoing theme is a temporal aspect that is a nuance your analysis lacks, and here it manifests as the assumption that if mana is not always relevant, then it must never be relevant. These are not the same things, which I thought was quite obvious from my explanation of the idea behind extended MW burst healing which centers entirely on the idea that mana is much more relevant when healing is relevant, and this can change throughout a fight instead of being constant from beginning to end.

This is an inherent flaw with using spreadsheets (or any extended calculation) as end-all fact. If you miss variables or make assumptions that are not always true, then you have flawed information in any situation where those assumptions do not hold or things change that are not included (such as the fact that ReM will do healing later and can contribute to a later burst window while free Vivifys do not increase burst HPS at all).

I never concluded that Rising Thunder was an HPS gain over taking the other talents (I thought it was clear that I was saying it wasn't a loss to use RSK if you have taken the talent... considering I was, in the same post, talking about a healing-focused option that whose purpose is literally only to do more healing), but I think the conclusion that it's a loss compared to FT is based on faulty conclusions drawn from a rigid framework of assumptions that doesn't lend itself to reality.

There is no temporal aspect missing. Assume a probability that healing is relevant during your RSK GCD. It is very obvious that the probability is very very very close to the actual percentage of downtime the fight has, which typically varies between 5-35% depending on the fight. I've shown already that even 100% downtime during RSK GCDs is not sufficient to make it competitive for HPS. My theorycraft for these talents is as high-fidelity as I always do, if not more so, due to the benefits provided by my spreadsheet mathematics and established calculations, including the fact that healing from mana is not as good as the raw healing itself.

P.S. the fact that mana for more Vivifies does not increase burst is already factored in as a penalty into the TFT tab (see Value tab for exact penalties), which is in turn referenced directly in the talent calculation formulas. I don't believe I've missed anything, except I need to go back and fix RSK GCDs counting against you all of the time instead of only outside of downtime (which was a caveat I already mentioned when I first posted the update).

[Baerong]

Hey guys,

It might be a bit to early to say, but how are we doing in 5-man content (a.ka. dungeons)? This being my favourite PvE enviroment, it was quite a let down this current expension. Are we more viable Legion?

[Supliftz]

Hey guys,

It might be a bit to early to say, but how are we doing in 5-man content (a.ka. dungeons)? This being my favourite PvE enviroment, it was quite a let down this current expension. Are we more viable Legion?

yes monks are currently doing well in 5 mans.

enm + vivify are op for 5 mans

[Solemnity]

Arcane and DPS Mistweaver are just not stable or explicit enough to slap the utility title on them. Arcane is only considerable as utility because its throughput could simply override other healers or utilities, but that could easily not be the case. Unlike balancing a Druid's Incarnation for example, balancing this could just dissolve its place as a utility altogether.

Just looking at RT without anything else, its burden of value is "use this and you can fistweave more than normally permitted". This implies its healing component is supplementary, and not complementary. This design as a talent means you can't have your cake and eat it too. If they wanted this to be utility and not some niche talent it would have to be baseline.

[Supliftz]

Arcane mistweaver is equivalent to casting tranq during innervates' duration.

That means if you were properly fed innervates, the class brings an additional raid cd every 3 minutes for however many innervates you have.

[Floopa]

tier 100 wont matter anyway. everyone's gonna pick mana tea if blizzard are dumb enough to continue their RJW > EF idea.

[Chasseombre]

So if i Have 5-6 Druids / Pal in my raid in can constantly Rjw / EF ?!

[Isheria]

So if i Have 5-6 Druids / Pal in my raid in can constantly Rjw / EF ?!

Maybe if all 6 of them are boomkins because you ain't getting any resto druid innervate like ever, also ret doesn't cast any blessing of wisdom ever it's 3 might 99.9% of the time.

[Staryu]

Maybe if all 6 of them are boomkins because you ain't getting any resto druid innervate like ever, also ret doesn't cast any blessing of wisdom ever it's 3 might 99.9% of the time.

I (for some reason) thought only Balance druids got innervate. If rdruid get it too, yeaaaaaahhhh I dont think theyd wanna share their innervate. Most healers are too competitive for that nonsense.

[xdmemes]

Maybe if all 6 of them are boomkins because you ain't getting any resto druid innervate like ever, also ret doesn't cast any blessing of wisdom ever it's 3 might 99.9% of the time.

This may be true but it's one of the poorest choices (unless they intend to balance druid regen around self-cast Innervate). There are specs with much heavier mana dumps that would see a lot more value.