Keep LFR out of Legion!

[Deficineiron]

And LFR can sit there on the side for players who want to do it. Tah dah!

lol that actually wasn't part of my idea (it was single-difficulty raiding) but that is ok since this is all wishful thinking, not just your post

[Glorious Leader]

It's not saving any time, it's just deciding when and how that time is spent. You ultimately have a finite amount of things to upgrade, and where you are in your progression can dramatically change how much valor that is that you want.

But people want things asap, its fairly basic human psychology. If you put a reward in a bit of content, people will do that content. If you don't give them any other option besides doing that content (as in not letting them get valor for the higher difficulty they were clearing in the first place) then they'll do the content they have no business doing. Because of course they want that reward, and if they have the time to do that content they'll do it whether they enjoy it or not.

Blizzard understands this, which is exactly why they did it the way they did it, because LFR que times were insane. I believe even with the valor you still see call to arms dps ques because sustained participation in LFR has been abysmal this xpac.

You mean... like raiding? Why is this argument never applied to the top tier of content which also happens to award the best gear in the game?

[grandgato]

It's not saving any time, it's just deciding when and how that time is spent. You ultimately have a finite amount of things to upgrade, and where you are in your progression can dramatically change how much valor that is that you want.

You can upgrade 9.75 pieces of gear or purchase 3.9 ring upgrades per week running everything including LFR. If you opt out of LFR that drops to 7.2 pieces of gear per week or 2.8 ring upgrades.

After like a month, how much valor is your typical player going to need? How is LFR mandatory again?

Blizzard understands this, which is exactly why they did it the way they did it, because LFR que times were insane. I believe even with the valor you still see call to arms dps ques because sustained participation in LFR has been abysmal this xpac.

They didn't want players to feel obligated to run LFR. It worked better then expected it would seem.

[Baconeggcheese]

They didn't want players to feel obligated to run LFR. It worked better then expected it would seem.

Kind of?

People ran LFR initially, and stopped doing it as they stopped needing as much valor. There are absolutely still people feeling obligated to run LFR to this day.

We had an app for instance who was playing catch up and had to start from scratch on the ring and all his gear was constantly upgrading so he was maxing out his valor for quite a while. Same goes for anyone on alts who wants to do the same.

Ofc once you reach a level of apathy you stop doing much of anything these days in wow, but if you still care you're absolutely going to feel obligated to step into LFR at some point. *unless you only pvp.

[grandgato]

Kind of?

People ran LFR initially, and stopped doing it as they stopped needing as much valor. There are absolutely still people feeling obligated to run LFR to this day.

We had an app for instance who was playing catch up and had to start from scratch on the ring and all his gear was constantly upgrading so he was maxing out his valor for quite a while. Same goes for anyone on alts who wants to do the same.

Ofc once you reach a level of apathy you stop doing much of anything these days in wow, but if you still care you're absolutely going to feel obligated to step into LFR at some point. *unless you only pvp.

The Mythic raider is going to look for every possible power upgrade and pursue it. Gutting content that is beneath them so they don't feel obligated to participate is having the parallel effect of screwing over the player who enjoys that level of content. It's entirely anecdotal, but i think it's the worst decision they have embraced moving into Warlords.

[Deleted]

Players play the difficulty they care about. That typically means one, maybe two difficulties are struck out of the routine. I think that's a reasonable argument to make.

And we all know that this isnt truth. Difficulty levels played out as progression path you jumping from one to another as you progress instead actualy jumping into new raid tier like back in TBC you just start same raid over again on just higher difficulty. This would not be a case of raids would shared lock outs. But it isnt so it is abused ala split raiding which causes burn outs and loss of motivation to keep playing. And no it isnt players fault. If games allow such nonseense progression it is fault of developers that they didnt defend their players from it.

[Baconeggcheese]

The Mythic raider is going to look for every possible power upgrade and pursue it. Gutting content that is beneath them so they don't feel obligated to participate is having the parallel effect of screwing over the player who enjoys that level of content. It's entirely anecdotal, but i think it's the worst decision they have embraced moving into Warlords.

See the thing is the framing of it always being mythic raiders vs everyone else is disingenuous.

Mythic raiders (especially the higher ranking ones) are fairly apathetic at this point to this stuff. No one in my guild really needed to have much of a discussion when they announced that valor would go up because everyone is automatically wanting to be the best they can be. So all we discussed was doing LFR as a raid, which we did. We killed every boss in under 20 seconds and spent maybe a half hour on it total just fucking around and it was fun and fine. If we had to do it every week forever it would have sucked, but it was 2 weeks and done.

It's everyone between the people who actually enjoy LFR and those mythic raiders that suffer in the gap between. You ever been in a more serious normal or heroic guild? It's easily one of the most toxic environments I've ever experienced.

There are people in the middle ground, and they get affected by all this shit.

[BiggestNoob]

LFR doesn't hurt anyone directly. Indirectly maybe, but those people need to focus on self control instead of external blame. Destroying part of the game isn't a solution that fixes other parts of it. All it does is destroy something some people enjoy which lowers the enjoyment ratio in the game. That makes it worse. Weather it's LFR, mythic raiding, pvp, or anything else you can think of. This game and community will never turn this slippery slope around if all it has left in it is the willfull destruction of each other. Build solutions. Not rip things apart.

Still looking for that mythical LFR raider. I can show you tons of normal raiders, heroic raiders, and mythic raiders. Still haven't found a single LFR raider. I've checked at least 700 armories at this point.

Yet LFR remains non-optional and is incentivized because it has to be in order to function, continuing to make people who aren't the mythical LFR raider enjoy the game less.

If u don't enjoy LFR. simply dont do it.
Removing it because u don't like it just proves how stupid u are. Go focus on finding new things to make the game better, not removing things

Assertions claimed not backed up with evidence:

1. LFR is optional
2. LFR does not take the place of non-raid casual content

Too bad that casuals never wanted to raid in first place. LFR is there just to force raiding on players what used to enyoj content like dungeons and world. Since all that is absolote thanks to LFR they dont have any content to do in game = they leave.

Someone gets it. Raiding should be optional, and people who don't want to raid should still have something to do in the game that's meaningful. That's less and less the case because of LFR.

I find it the opposite. I find that the dedicated raiders and people that push content fast are the ones who leave until there is new content more so than "casuals". They play less so it takes them a lot longer to complete everything. Besides, most people just play the game and don't give to shits about anything forum goers care about.

I've found these people are the most consistent. That's how after a 50-60% drop in the playerbase, the raid participation rate remains basically the same.

That still isnt any kind of proof that people dont like it.
Its like saying people dont like hc so they had to put moose mount, sure some will do it for mount but others will do it because they like it.

That moose mount resulted in a huge number of people who haven't even done normal buying a heroic archimonde kill. The main difference is that you can clearly see people doing normal, heroic, and mythic and repeatedly clearing the content or progressing further. Nobody does that with LFR. LFR for most non-raiders is a one time thing or an occasional thing. Just about everyone I've seen who raids seriously has done more LFR than your typical "pro-LFR non-raider." Much more, and I don't know a single mythic raider who actually likes LFR. So we have people doing content despite disliking it -- a great recipe for player morale.

The amusing part of this is that we're acting like lfr has some gross monopoly on rewards and it should be lifted of that because people don't do lfr for fun. Well if we're gonna be fair we need to apply this standard across the board. RAIDING HAS ALL THE REWARD and it's largely their to entice people to raid. So why can't we apply this standard to raiding?

That's largely because it's necessary to maintain a difficulty curve in raiding. Those "rewards" outside of raiding are meaningless.

The reason this observation doesn't apply to normal raiding is because people actually do it and enjoy it. The data shows this -- something that's missing in LFR. You'll have people make this claim, but their armory doesn't back it up.

Imagine you say "I LOVE BASEBALL HOLY SHIT, THATS THE BEST THING EVER" and then we find out you've only ever seen a single game of it. Are we going to believe what you say or what you do?

In reality, raiding shouldn't be the thing non-raiders want to do for character progression. Blizzard actually needs to make something else. CMs I don't think fit that bill because it's going to be the raiders who do CMs. Casual players don't solo GR90+ in D3.

Because it's an objective measure. You can make any sort of assertion you like, for example "people enjoy raiding" but then deny one of the few possible tools with which we can falsify that statement. It's what religions do and in fact the arguments in favor of raiding and raiding have the best gear and for lfr being eliminated more or less all devolve into senseless moralizing about deservedness.

There's a problem when there's an incentive to do it and you don't normalize the data to take out data points that can be easily explained by external factors.

What happens when you don't control for factors you know about is you actually believe that there's a 23% wage gap between men/women in the US, despite working women in their prime years actually making more on average in the exact same jobs with the exact same experience and working the exact same hours. Though part of that, due to political narrative spinning, is largely misconstrued and contorted to make the absolute absurd claim that "women are paid 77% as much as a man for the exact same work" which the data doesn't even support -- that asserts that there's a 50% split in all jobs and that women work the exact same amount and the data clearly says that's not the case.

Basically we have to beware people who throw around participation numbers because they'll largely use an inflationary tactic to make their argument seem true, even though the data doesn't support their claims (because they haven't actually looked at it).

Care to provide any evidence to support that?

Sure:

1. Access to legendary quest progress before achieving the necessary ilvl to actually do the raids + ability to AFK and earn the most potent reward in the game currently.
2. Valor.
3. Bonus bags if you're trying to gear an alt.

Because of these things, your gameplay is negatively impacted if you don't take part in LFR, meaning it's not optional.

k it's kinda...sad... that a lot of people just want to get rid or LFR because it undermines their "achievements" in the higher difficulties.

Not one person claims this.

You mean... like raiding? Why is this argument never applied to the top tier of content which also happens to award the best gear in the game?

Aside from that actually not impacting the game outside of raiding, this is just an argument for alternate character progression that is independent of raiding, which I don't think anyone disagrees with. Blizzard needs to stop making WoW all about raiding. World of Raidcraft is dumb.

[Desparil]

That moose mount resulted in a huge number of people who haven't even done normal buying a heroic archimonde kill.

See how detached you are from reality, average player doesnt have gold to buy moose boost, average player doesnt have 10 alts with garrison farming gold, those people you see buying boosts are farfaaar from average player.

The main difference is that you can clearly see people doing normal, heroic, and mythic and repeatedly clearing the content or progressing further. Nobody does that with LFR. LFR for most non-raiders is a one time thing or an occasional thing.

Again blanket statements like that mean nothing, there are plenty of lfr players clearing lfr multiple times and you can check easily on armory.

Just about everyone I've seen who raids seriously has done more LFR than your typical "pro-LFR non-raider." Much more, and I don't know a single mythic raider who actually likes LFR. So we have people doing content despite disliking it -- a great recipe for player morale.

And thats the core problem you think that 50-100-200 people from your surrounding are representative of anything in game...they are statistically insignificant.

I can do same thing and say every single mythic raider i know likes lfr or doesnt mind lfr exists and it means jack shit because i know that my personal experience doesnt reflect what wider population thinks.

[grandgato]

Still looking for that mythical LFR raider. I can show you tons of normal raiders, heroic raiders, and mythic raiders. Still haven't found a single LFR raider. I've checked at least 700 armories at this point.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Areyden/simple

Sure:

1. Access to legendary quest progress before achieving the necessary ilvl to actually do the raids + ability to AFK and earn the most potent reward in the game currently.
2. Valor.
3. Bonus bags if you're trying to gear an alt.

Because of these things, your gameplay is negatively impacted if you don't take part in LFR, meaning it's not optional.

1.) You can get work on your legendary ring through normal mode content. You can easily gear for HFC normal with Taanan solo content much faster and easier then HFC LFR.
2.) I've demonstrated in earlier posts that the valor lost between clearing LFR each week and ignoring it is largely insignificant.
3.) Gearing an alt has no impact on progression.

So yes, optional.

[BiggestNoob]

See how detached you are from reality, average player doesnt have gold to buy moose boost, average player doesnt have 10 alts with garrison farming gold, those people you see buying boosts are farfaaar from average player.

Yeah that's why hundreds of thousands of sales happened. Because most people can't make 30k gold. I've made 120k in the past week with just 4 characters doing basically nothing.

Again blanket statements like that mean nothing, there are plenty of lfr players clearing lfr multiple times and you can check easily on armory.

No you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Look at my armory. I actually do raid. I raid about <5 hours a week, and it's like 6-7 if you average out progression. I don't know if it can get any more casual than that. Not a single person I've found actually does LFR regularly.

And thats the core problem you think that 50-100-200 people from your surrounding are representative of anything in game...they are statistically insignificant.

It's really not. If I take a random sample of 700 armories from random pro-LFR people and then a random sample from a few hundred mythic raiders and I see a trend, it's statistically relevant. You don't need 10k samples to see a marked trend. Please go take a course in statistics.

I can do same thing and say every single mythic raider i know likes lfr or doesnt mind lfr exists and it means jack shit because i know that my personal experience doesnt reflect what wider population thinks.

We already know what the wider population of mythic raiders think, and most people don't like LFR. That includes non-raiders. This game doesn't have non-raid content because LFR exists, and raiders don't like doing LFR. Your 9/13 friend in 735+ gear isn't a mythic raider.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Areyden/simple

Nope. Try again.

1.) You can get work on your legendary ring through normal mode content. You can easily gear for HFC normal with Taanan solo content much faster and easier then HFC LFR.

You can advance the ring quest faster than you can gear in Tanaan unless you're grinding. This argument doesn't actually refute what I said, it just says "you can wait." That's the point -- waiting is detrimental to your progression. I'm glad you agree LFR is not optional.

2.) I've demonstrated in earlier posts that the valor lost between clearing LFR each week and ignoring it is largely insignificant.

You need 7500 to upgrade your current gear. Let's assume you'll only replace each piece once after you've upgraded everything. So you need 15000 valor. You need 20 ring upgrades. You can kill Archimonde on normal+ for effectively 1250 valor once a week, and so you need 25000 valor for the ring.

That means you need 40000 valor. Doing 7/7 heroic dungeons gives you 700, 8/8 mythic dungeons gives you 2400, assuming you always have a 500 valor weekly puts you at a total of 3600, and then there's 1275 from LFR and 1250 from Archimonde once you've got the legendary ring.

So if you do everything every week, you gain 6125 valor per week. That means it'll take 6.5 weeks to finish.

If you do everything but LFR, you gain 4850 valor per week, which will take 8.2 weeks to finish.

That's not insignificant. That's a 26% increase. If you got a 26% increase in your pay, would you call that insignificant? Who wouldn't want that.

That there's any negative impact from not doing LFR means it has a significant impact. It's not optional.

3.) Gearing an alt has no impact on progression.

You can't get into raids until you get enough gear, so yes it does.

[Desparil]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Areyden/simple

Just wanted to add http://www.wowprogress.com/petscore/eu he can find as many lfr raiders as he likes but if something is done by 2+ million i wish him good luck checking those he should be done by 2020 im just gonna go with blizzard data.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah that's why hundreds of thousands of sales happened. Because most people can't make 30k gold. I've made 120k in the past week with just 4 characters doing basically nothing.

Again link some data we sure get plenty of your opinions here but nothing else, and again you are not representative of anything in game.

No you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Look at my armory. I actually do raid. I raid about <5 hours a week, and it's like 6-7 if you average out progression. I don't know if it can get any more casual than that. Not a single person I've found actually does LFR regularly.

Again people you met...nope. All you are trying to say there how good you are and how easy it is blahblah.

It's really not. If I take a random sample of 700 armories from random pro-LFR people and then a random sample from a few hundred mythic raiders and I see a trend, it's statistically relevant. You don't need 10k samples to see a marked trend. Please go take a course in statistics.

You clearly didnt respect sampling procedure since your data is wrong so you can take your own advice.

We already know what the wider population of mythic raiders think, and most people don't like LFR. That includes non-raiders. This game doesn't have non-raid content because LFR exists, and raiders don't like doing LFR. Your 9/13 friend in 735+ gear isn't a mythic raider.

And once again you are wrong since even on mmo-champ poll people are against removing it so your statement is just your humble opinion but please if you do have some data where mythic raiders and other people said they dont like lfr link until then this is all just your butthurt rant.

[Glorious Leader]

The reason this observation doesn't apply to normal raiding is because people actually do it and enjoy it. The data shows this -- something that's missing in LFR. You'll have people make this claim, but their armory doesn't back it up.

What data is this? please elaborate. Can you provide data showing every single individual doing normal raiding and above enjoys it versus just does it for the reward? Can you provide data showing the majority of them do it? Can you provide any evidence at all that the same principle of incentive that draws people to lfr DOESNT APPLY TO NORMAL RAIDING? Yea I would love to know what data you have...

[BiggestNoob]

What data is this? please elaborate

Armories, wowprogress.

Just wanted to add http://www.wowprogress.com/petscore/eu he can find as many lfr raiders as he likes but if something is done by 2+ million i wish him good luck checking those he should be done by 2020 im just gonna go with blizzard data.

Checked 20, nothing. Still looking. The legendary myth continues. At this point it's also worth pointing out: even if I do find the legendary mythical LFR raider, it's something like 1/1000, making them a smaller minority than people who actually finish mythic while it's relevant.

Again link some data we sure get plenty of your opinions here but nothing else, and again you are not representative of anything in game.

That's not an opinion. I made 120k on 4 characters in A SINGLE WEEK DOING NOTHING. That's not an opinion bro. Please.

Again people you met...nope. All you are trying to say there how good you are and how easy it is blahblah.

NO, PEOPLE FROM A RANDOM SAMPLE, NEARLY 1000 PEOPLE NOW. You do realize the majority of studies you hear about are of that size for the ENTIRE POPULATION OF A COUNTRY right?

Holy fucking christ.

You clearly didnt respect sampling procedure since your data is wrong so you can take your own advice.

Yes, please tell me how my process is wrong. Sampling people at random IN A WAY BIASED IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE DOING LFR and still finding nothing is definitely going to make my data wrong. It's going to OVERREPRESENT LFR PLAYERS which means it should be biased in LFR's favor but LOL ITS NOT.

Jesus christ.

And once again you are wrong since even on mmo-champ poll people are against removing it so your statement is just your humble opinion but please if you do have some data where mythic raiders and other people said they dont like lfr link until then this is all just your butthurt rant.

You actually have no idea what you're saying do you? Do you know anything?

[Glorious Leader]

Armories, wowprogress.

That does not prove people enjoy raiding. It proves people do it but it could just as easily be because the gear behind it is better and that's exactly why. You just did the same thing you accused others of when you said participation stats are misunderstood. When an alternative is offered watch them abandon raiding...

[BiggestNoob]

That does not prove people enjoy raiding.

Yeah it does.

People enjoy sex and they have lots of it. People enjoy eating shitty food and they eat lots of it. People enjoy rock climbing and they do it frequently. People enjoy sports and they do it frequently.

NEWSFLASH, IM ABOUT TO BLOW YOUR MIND HERE:

PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY ENJOY DOING FREQUENTLY

Psychology 101. We're done here. I'm open to discussion when you people actually stop making statements that make internet feminists look like geniuses.

It proves people do it but it could just as easily be because the gear behind it is better and that's exactly why. You just did the same thing you accused others of when you said participation stats are misunderstood.

No see, I'm arguing that because there is a LACK OF REPRESENTATION IN THIS POSITION that it is not present in a widespread fashion. I'm not arguing "lots of people have done LFR, therefore LFR is good content." I'm arguing "nobody who claims LFR is good content actually does LFR much at all" which would be the case if they actually enjoyed it. The armories of people with the most clears of LFR are from raiders doing it for valor or alts doing it for ring progress/valor, and I see these people talking negatively about LFR. I'm looking at the people who claim they run LFR all the time and people who claim it's the only reason they play WoW and they DONT EVEN DO THE CONTENT. The fact that this position isn't found AT ALL in the data is significant.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

k it's kinda...sad... that a lot of people just want to get rid or LFR because it undermines their "achievements" in the higher difficulties.

What a nonconstructive and stereotypical post!

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah it does.

People enjoy sex and they have lots of it. People enjoy eating shitty food and they eat lots of it. People enjoy rock climbing and they do it frequently. People enjoy sports and they do it frequently.

NEWSFLASH, IM ABOUT TO BLOW YOUR MIND HERE:

PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY ENJOY DOING FREQUENTLY

Psychology 101. We're done here. I'm open to discussion when you people actually stop making statements that make internet feminists look like geniuses.

People do lfr frequently as well. Ergo they must enjoy lfr.

Unfortunately you have literally done what you criticized others for, you misrepresented the data in order to support a claim that it doesn't support. Congratulations you are a massive hypocrite.

[Glorious Leader]

No see, I'm arguing that because there is a LACK OF REPRESENTATION IN THIS POSITION that it is not present in a widespread fashion. I'm not arguing "lots of people have done LFR, therefore LFR is good content." I'm arguing "nobody who claims LFR is good content actually does LFR much at all" which would be the case if they actually enjoyed it.

Probably because the ones enjoying lfr are playing lfr and not posting on forums.

[mysticx]

Still looking for that mythical LFR raider. I can show you tons of normal raiders, heroic raiders, and mythic raiders. Still haven't found a single LFR raider. I've checked at least 700 armories at this point.

Yet LFR remains non-optional and is incentivized because it has to be in order to function, continuing to make people who aren't the mythical LFR raider enjoy the game less.

Well, you could call me a LfR-raider, except for the fact that there's only one LfR-item left on me that i didn't replace with Baleful gear, crafted gear, a Kazzak-drop or something from those chests you get for running 5 timewalker dungeons (No, i didn't run normal :3 ), here's my armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Kotara/simple

It's hard to find people in mostly LfR-gear now, since it's so easy to get better gear for less time investment this tier (It's easier to spread apexis-farming over the week in smaller chunks of time than LfR), maybe that makes the search for "The mythical LfR raider" so tough...