Chronicles Mogu Empire Vs Scourge *Spoilers*

[Wewlad]

Your logic betrays you

Everyone in WoW that has been resurrected/returned in one way or another has become weaker than what they once were

Kael'thas is a pure example of this

Quite the blanket statement, and something that can't be proven. Kael'thas isn't Lei Shen by any stretch. And Cenarius would like to speak with you. It is clear that you're not going to argue from what is proven, so I rest my case.

[A Chozo]

And the Lich King was toying with the adventurers during the fight. Stop taking health bars as lore. He wiped them out in an instant and could have done so at any point. Lei Shen couldn't no matter how much he charged himself up.

The health bar is the mechanical indication that something is taking damage in-game. You'r not the Lore Autority to throw away things that work against your argument. He took damage. Vital damage. Yes, he could've killed us from the start. But he isn't immune, he's just very deadly.

Xxarthasxx, the Shaman, could damage him with Chain Lightning - so can Lei Shen.

[The Professional]

The health bar is the mechanical indication that something is taking damage in-game. You'r not the Lore Autority to throw away things that work against your argument. He took damage. Vital damage. Yes, he could've killed us from the start. But he isn't immune, he's just very deadly.

Xxarthasxx, the Shaman, could damage him with Chain Lightning - so can Lei Shen.

Only two things can hurt the Lich King if hes on guard. The light and a plague specifically made to kill him(which failed). If the Forsaken made a plague specifically to kill someone than nothing in the universe is going to survive that. But the Lich King proved the impossible by just walking away.

[Skulltaker]

Only two things can hurt the Lich King if hes on guard. The light and a plague specifically made to kill him(which failed). If the Forsaken made a plague specifically to kill someone than nothing in the universe is going to survive that. But the Lich King proved the impossible by just walking away.

And a group of 25 people with swords, bows and magic of all kind.

Or my Pandaren Monk with his bare fists.

[Deleted]

The Mogu Empire easily.

Necromancy doesn't work on stone and even if it did the Thunder King has the soul of a freaking Titan!

The war'd be over in a few years.

I mean the thing is Hardly. Neromancy may not work on Mogu, but everything else in the world is Food for the source. and The Scourge have atleast as many "high" ranking members. Vampires, Dragons, giant skeletons, aborminasins. Endless numbers of tiny minions. Nerubians Are a Strong ground force that can borrow tunnels to break defensiv lines..

Lei shen May be strong, stronger then LK, but he is also powerfull. In a strait up fight LK would not win, but give some time, would break down the mogu empire.

[The Professional]

And a group of 25 people with swords, bows and magic of all kind.

Or my Pandaren Monk with his bare fists.

I said *if the Lich King is on guard*. When our bows, magic, and swords killed the Lich King host, it was because the spirits were holding him down P.O.P style. If the Lich King was on guard than he won't die, even Sargeras's pantheon murdering fel storm attack or planet cleaver would had only given the Lich King a cough like the plague *specifically designed to kill*.

[Deleted]

Only two things can hurt the Lich King if hes on guard. The light and a plague specifically made to kill him(which failed). If the Forsaken made a plague specifically to kill someone than nothing in the universe is going to survive that. But the Lich King proved the impossible by just walking away.

It's reasonable to assume the lich king can also be hurt by those who made him, the legion, if they were able to get to him. being on azeroth is a nice shield from the legion (see frozen throne for why kil jaeden didnt deal with it personally). maybe kiljaeden has a helm of lich king dominiation, maybe he has dispell undeath, whatevs, if he can create the lich king he clearly is pretty darn gud at necromancy.

by this logic it also stands to reason he can be hurt by people with similar or more knowledge then the legion, like the mogu and especially their masters and especially amanthuls soul.

[Skulltaker]

I said *if the Lich King is on guard*. When our bows, magic, and swords killed the Lich King host, it was because the spirits were holding him down P.O.P style. If the Lich King was on guard than he won't die, even Sargeras's pantheon murdering fel storm attack or planet cleaver would had only given the Lich King a cough like the plague *specifically designed to kill*.

Even if he was on guard I did a fair amount of damage to him. For a regular Pandaren Monk that's quiet impressive. Or rather weak on his part. But Arthas was a minor villain in Warcraft to begin with. Never did anything that big. Sitting around in Northrend, and that's about it.

And again, every character is just as weak and strong as the writers decide. If they decide Arthas gets his ass handed to him by 25 randoms and Tyrion it means that all it took to defeat the allmighty lichking were 25 dudes and Tyrion, and there is nothing you can do about that. And if they make a story where Lei Shen travels through time and space and kicks arthas in the face, it is canon. And there is nothing you could do about it either.

You have, again, zero evidence, to back your claim up. So...

The Lich King is dead. My Pandaren monk lives. He's oficially stronger then Arthas by KO. Or you take the orange Lich King who is nothing but a Kindergardener for the scourge now. Which isn't that different from Arthas, if you think about it. Who again accomplished nothing. He destroyed a measly human Kingdom. Big deal.

[The Professional]

Even if he was on guard I did a fair amount of damage to him. For a regular Pandaren Monk that's quiet impressive. Or rather weak on his part. But Arthas was a minor villain in Warcraft to begin with. Never did anything that big. Sitting around in Northrend, and that's about it.

And again, every character is just as weak and strong as the writers decide. If they decide Arthas gets his ass handed to him by 25 randoms and Tyrion it means that all it took to defeat the allmighty lichking were 25 dudes and Tyrion, and there is nothing you can do about that. And if they make a story where Lei Shen travels through time and space and kicks arthas in the face, it is canon. And there is nothing you could do about it either.

You have, again, zero evidence, to back your claim up. So...

The Lich King is dead. My Pandaren monk lives. He's oficially stronger then Arthas by KO. Or you take the orange Lich King who is nothing but a Kindergardener for the scourge now. Which isn't that different from Arthas, if you think about it. Who again accomplished nothing. He destroyed a measly human Kingdom. Big deal.

The Writer also decided that the Lich King is the only boss so far and possibly ever to have toyed with and one shoted the heros. Your monk will get his ass kicked back to Pandaria by the Lich king in lore. Even without frostmourne the LK would mop your fat panda monk up in a heartbeat. Sargeras won't be able to one shot the adventures when we finally fight him. And decay and death beats all so eventually everything belongs to the lich king. Your pandarian monk would serve as a fodder level undead servant.

[Deleted]

Waaaay too many fucking discussions about Game Mechanics, rather than Lore. And also too much Bulldog feeding, let the wretched fanboy starve please.

It's a tie. We're not talking Throne of Thunder or MoP Mogu. We're talking Mogu before all that, in their titanic stone forms, with Lei Shen, possessing a Titan Soul - as we're taking into account the Chronicles lore - and the Engine. All of that is in the Title and OP post.

So first of: Lei Shen didn't just die in combat, for all those who don't know it yet. As read in the Chronicles, when he invaded the still-green Uldum, the Tol'vir literally had to ORIGINATE him to death via the Halls of Origination, hence why Uldum is mostly a wasteland right now. I doubt (and bear with me and wait for Bulldog headcanoning me on this one) the Lich King could take the same beating. When you're literally being reoriginated like a rock in the landscape, you can Frostmourne around all day as you like - you're probably dead.

So. Thanks to the Engine, the Mogu could create numerous of their numbers for the war. The same can be said for the Scourge with their necromantic abilities. However, most of the Scourge's Numbers AREN'T Frostwyrms. It's Abom's, skeletons, necromancers, ghouls. There are more "lesser" undead than anything super-powerful. And rotten flesh isn't resistant at all. Ghouls and other scourge members without any punch backing their weaponry, will probably hurt themselves more by flailing their claws at a Stone Mogu than anything else. That renders the Main-force of the Scourge seemingly powerless to Stone Mogu by default.

The big threat to the Mogu forces are Frost Wyrms (And no, they're not unlimited in numbers, there are only so many dragons before the flights are extinct and there are no new Dragons left) and Meat Wagons (If primed with worthwhile ammunition, not just piles of rotten body-parts). Meat Wagons also require some squishies operating them, which is risky given Lei Shen's mastery over the Storms. Given his power, it is safe to assume that at least his ability to disappear and appear with the lightning is pretty much canon, same as Frostmourne's Fury could be.

Furthermore, Arthas is by no means a great tactician. His (potential) numbers allow him to be oblivious to that anyway. Lei Shen, is. He has lead his Mogu better than Arthas ever did his troops during his life-time (and Ner'zhul for that matter), which is pretty safe to assume given his youth.

From a military standpoint, (and with the Engine's backing to create new Stone Mogu at a whim) Lei Shen would win by far in my oppinion, capable to use his (technically) unlimited troops much more efficiently than Arthas and his various Commanders theirs. Lei Shen just has the veteran's favor here.

Power-wise? Probably Arthas, however there is no real way to know which abilities are purely mechanical and which are canon. It's safe to assume that neither Arthas nor Lei Shen are immortal or impenetrable. Arthas is still only a darkened human body in heavy armor with a magical helmet and weapon. The same could be said about Lei Shen's helmet of Command, which he could also use to lightning-laz0r his way through Arthas' armies + his Thunderforged Weapons Uroe and Shan-Dun. Would lightning-powered weapons made in a titanic forge shatter as easily as Saurfang Jr.'s axe did at the Wrath Gate? We don't know.

I could go on about the two of them a bit more, but meh.

With what we know and what we don't know; adding in the Chronicles Lore for Lei Shen; It's either a veery close win for Lei Shen or a straight tie, in which both of them would probably be locked in constant army warfare forever.

That's my two cents.

And my third cent will simply be to Bulldog: Get your crush on that twice-dead man checked. Make him as powerful as you want in your head-canon, but the Sargeras/Titan comment from the other Thread is completely idiotic. The Lich King isn't immune to getting plucked from his little frozen toilet by a being that's probably twice or triple the size of Azeroth, only to be crushed into a little mix of Frostmourne, Flesh and Armor.

[Skulltaker]

The Writer also decided that the Lich King is the only boss so far and possibly ever to have toyed with and one shoted the heros. Your monk will get his ass kicked back to Pandaria by the Lich king in lore. Even without frostmourne the LK would mop your fat panda monk up in a heartbeat. Sargeras won't be able to one shot the adventures when we finally fight him. And decay and death beats all so eventually everything belongs to the lich king. Your pandarian monk would serve as a fodder level undead servant.

Prove it. Or any of your claims. So far, my monk is alive and kicking. Lich King isn't. He's just sitting around useless. As all Lich Kings befor him. Never accomplished anything, nor will they. Deathwing did more damage to Azeroth with one flyover then Arthas did in years. From all final bosses in addons Arthas is the second-weakest, only Illidan falls shorter.

Illidan harassed an already screwed half-world.

Arthas raised a couple of Skelletons and harassed Orgrimmar and Stormwind for 2 weeks.

Deathwing almost destroyed the world and brought the End Times upon us.

Garrosh devoured a peaceful continent and two factions in an almost all out war that left one faction on it's knees.

Gul'dan started an interdimensioal Invasion of Demons.

Lichking is a second rate villain at best. He's Bane in one room with Darkseid, the Anti Monitor and Necron. He's Hawkeye next to Thor, Silver Surfer and Deadpool. Sargeras wouldn't even bother with him. Neither would my monk.

(...) only to be crushed into a little mix of Frostmourne, Flesh and Armor.

Frostmourne is gone. As is the Lich King

[The Professional]

Prove it. Or any of your claims. So far, my monk is alive and kicking. Lich King isn't. He's just sitting around useless. As all Lich Kings befor him. Never accomplished anything, nor will they. Deathwing did more damage to Azeroth with one flyover then Arthas did in years. From all final bosses in addons Arthas is the second-weakest, only Illidan falls shorter.

Illidan harassed an already screwed half-world.

Arthas raised a couple of Skelletons and harassed Orgrimmar and Stormwind for 2 weeks.

Deathwing almost destroyed the world and brought the End Times upon us.

Garrosh devoured a peaceful continent and two factions in an almost all out war that left one faction on it's knees.

Gul'dan started an interdimensioal Invasion of Demons.

Lichking is a second rate villain at best. He's Bane in one room with Darkseid, the Anti Monitor and Necron. He's Hawkeye next to Thor, Silver Surfer and Deadpool. Sargeras wouldn't even bother with him.

Deathwing controls the earth and just because one can destroy more doesn't make them more powerful. Sargeras can destroy planets but he isn't as powerful as the Lich King. Lord Jaraxxus and basically any Eeradar lord can blow up worlds but they would lose to a lich. Gul'dan, Garrosh, Deathwing, Arthas, and Illidan basically everything you listed would get turned into undead slaves for the Lich King even if they all ganged up on him. A normal ghoul would eat your fat pandarian monk for breakfast.

[Khime]

If you are going by in-game mechanics to measure power levels, the Lich King could be killed at the end of MoP in 25-man Heroic by a single mage in under two minutes, and he only lasts that long because of his mandatory dialog that he'll spout off no matter what. And his supposedly all-powerful "One shot the heroes" mechanic doesn't even scratch the mage's cloth armor. Lei Shen lasted much longer against an equally powerful hero at that same time.

[The Professional]

Waaaay too many fucking discussions about Game Mechanics, rather than Lore. And also too much Bulldog feeding, let the wretched fanboy starve please.

It's a tie. We're not talking Throne of Thunder or MoP Mogu. We're talking Mogu before all that, in their titanic stone forms, with Lei Shen, possessing a Titan Soul - as we're taking into account the Chronicles lore - and the Engine. All of that is in the Title and OP post.

So first of: Lei Shen didn't just die in combat, for all those who don't know it yet. As read in the Chronicles, when he invaded the still-green Uldum, the Tol'vir literally had to ORIGINATE him to death via the Halls of Origination, hence why Uldum is mostly a wasteland right now. I doubt (and bear with me and wait for Bulldog headcanoning me on this one) the Lich King could take the same beating. When you're literally being reoriginated like a rock in the landscape, you can Frostmourne around all day as you like - you're probably dead.

So. Thanks to the Engine, the Mogu could create numerous of their numbers for the war. The same can be said for the Scourge with their necromantic abilities. However, most of the Scourge's Numbers AREN'T Frostwyrms. It's Abom's, skeletons, necromancers, ghouls. There are more "lesser" undead than anything super-powerful. And rotten flesh isn't resistant at all. Ghouls and other scourge members without any punch backing their weaponry, will probably hurt themselves more by flailing their claws at a Stone Mogu than anything else. That renders the Main-force of the Scourge seemingly powerless to Stone Mogu by default.

The big threat to the Mogu forces are Frost Wyrms (And no, they're not unlimited in numbers, there are only so many dragons before the flights are extinct and there are no new Dragons left) and Meat Wagons (If primed with worthwhile ammunition, not just piles of rotten body-parts). Meat Wagons also require some squishies operating them, which is risky given Lei Shen's mastery over the Storms. Given his power, it is safe to assume that at least his ability to disappear and appear with the lightning is pretty much canon, same as Frostmourne's Fury could be.

Furthermore, Arthas is by no means a great tactician. His (potential) numbers allow him to be oblivious to that anyway. Lei Shen, is. He has lead his Mogu better than Arthas ever did his troops during his life-time (and Ner'zhul for that matter), which is pretty safe to assume given his youth.

From a military standpoint, (and with the Engine's backing to create new Stone Mogu at a whim) Lei Shen would win by far in my oppinion, capable to use his (technically) unlimited troops much more efficiently than Arthas and his various Commanders theirs. Lei Shen just has the veteran's favor here.

Power-wise? Probably Arthas, however there is no real way to know which abilities are purely mechanical and which are canon. It's safe to assume that neither Arthas nor Lei Shen are immortal or impenetrable. Arthas is still only a darkened human body in heavy armor with a magical helmet and weapon. The same could be said about Lei Shen's helmet of Command, which he could also use to lightning-laz0r his way through Arthas' armies + his Thunderforged Weapons Uroe and Shan-Dun. Would lightning-powered weapons made in a titanic forge shatter as easily as Saurfang Jr.'s axe did at the Wrath Gate? We don't know.

I could go on about the two of them a bit more, but meh.

With what we know and what we don't know; adding in the Chronicles Lore for Lei Shen; It's either a veery close win for Lei Shen or a straight tie, in which both of them would probably be locked in constant army warfare forever.

That's my two cents.

And my third cent will simply be to Bulldog: Get your crush on that twice-dead man checked. Make him as powerful as you want in your head-canon, but the Sargeras/Titan comment from the other Thread is completely idiotic. The Lich King isn't immune to getting plucked from his little frozen toilet by a being that's probably twice or triple the size of Azeroth, only to be crushed into a little mix of Frostmourne, Flesh and Armor.

Lich King toyed with the greatest heros of all times, even one shoted us once he got bored. The same heros took on full powered Lei Shen without effort. Sargeras and Titan don't have the light or angry spirits helping them so how they gonna stand up to the Lich King?

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If you are going by in-game mechanics to measure power levels, the Lich King could be killed at the end of MoP in 25-man Heroic by a single mage in under two minutes, and he only lasts that long because of his mandatory dialog that he'll spout off no matter what. And his supposedly all-powerful "One shot the heroes" mechanic doesn't even scratch the mage's cloth armor. Lei Shen lasted much longer against an equally powerful hero at that same time.

Nobody is using game mechanics, the Lich King took down the greatest heros of all times with ease and was going to resurrect us into his slaves. Plot saved the world and the universe from the Lich King doing this.

[Deleted]

If you are going by in-game mechanics to measure power levels, the Lich King could be killed at the end of MoP in 25-man Heroic by a single mage in under two minutes, and he only lasts that long because of his mandatory dialog that he'll spout off no matter what. And his supposedly all-powerful "One shot the heroes" mechanic doesn't even scratch the mage's cloth armor. Lei Shen lasted much longer against an equally powerful hero at that same time.

As I said, taking Game Mechanics as the basis of such "Vs" threads and posts in it, is simply idiotic. Taking into account all ingame mechanics, even a New-Nagrand Ogre would give the Lich King a hard fight.

(This is me just stating on the Game Mechanics thing again, not me criticizing your point or post)

[Skulltaker]

Deathwing controls the earth and just because one can destroy more doesn't make them more powerful. Sargeras can destroy planets but he isn't as powerful as the Lich King. Lord Jaraxxus and basically any Eeradar lord can blow up worlds but they would lose to a lich. Gul'dan, Garrosh, Deathwing, Arthas, and Illidan basically everything you listed would get turned into undead slaves for the Lich King even if they all ganged up on him. A normal ghoul would eat your fat pandarian monk for breakfast.

You cannot prove any of this. I feel sorry for you. In the meantime my Pandaren dances around the Lich Kings grave. What did the Lich King ever do? Destroy one measly human Kingdom. And that's it. Nothing else. Rather short list of accomplishments. The Black Prince is more powerful then that.

[A Chozo]

Now I'm wondering if the Mogu can use the two stone statues on the Vale...

Lich King toyed with the greatest heros of all times, even one shoted us once he got bored. The same heros took on full powered Lei Shen without effort. Sargeras and Titan don't have the light or angry spirits helping them so how they gonna stand up to the Lich King?

Nobody is using game mechanics, the Lich King took down the greatest heros of all times with ease and was going to resurrect us into his slaves. Plot saved the world and the universe from the Lich King doing this.

A Mogu spellcaster with some spare angry spirits will defeat him, then, by your logic. Again: You don't know if Frostmourne works on a stone-being like the Mogu, if the Mogu can use spiritual magic on the LK/Frostmourne. Just because Frostmourne worked on some 25 random humanoids on his Throne doesn't mean it works on things more powerful. It is even said that, to ressurect powerful things (like Lei Shen, the prime example), you need complex spells, while a rogue Val'kir can help those random humanoids with their own ressurections. Most is speculation. NoNamedPride got the story right: without precise info about what works on what, it would be mostly a tie.

And Titans have ties with Holy magic, LK would be no match for one.

[Skulltaker]

Plot saved the world and the universe from the Lich King doing this.

You mispelled Tyrion here. He saved the world.

[Radaney]

I actually think the Mogu would take this one...Only for the fact that Necromancers and Undead are fucking nothing compared to the Mogu strength and magical abilities, and the Troll Empire. Imagine multiple Oodanasta's running into an army of undead, Geez. They can also keep churning out Stone Mogu's.

Full strength Lei Shen would probably kick the Lich Kings ass also to be frank. Frostmourne is nothing in comparison to Lei Shen. Lei Shen is pretty up there in the power levels of WoW Lore. Dude is literally a Demigod, powered by the Titans unintentionally.

[Deleted]

Lich King toyed with the greatest heros of all times, even one shoted us once he got bored. The same heros took on full powered Lei Shen without effort. Sargeras and Titan don't have the light or angry spirits helping them so how they gonna stand up to the Lich King?

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Nobody is using game mechanics, the Lich King took down the greatest heros of all times with ease and was going to resurrect us into his slaves. Plot saved the world and the universe from the Lich King doing this.

1) Again. Explain to me in a reasonable post, how the Lich King would even TRY to avoid getting plucked off the planet by a Titan of galactic proportions, like Aman'thul did with Y'shaarj. Will he stab the titan's pinky and laugh diabolically while it sits in a corner of the galaxy, sucking on it like a whiny baby? No. He won't. Having done some trolling myself, I can hardly believe that you get satisfaction or fun out of these kind of shitposts, so I'll just make it my headcanon that you build shrines to the allmighty Lich King somewhere in your town whenever you're not posting here.

2) You are using game mechanics. In Lore, the Adventurers are barely mentioned nor canon - I think WoD (and Legion) are the only expansions where a single adventurer is mentioned as a plot-point in the pure Lore (outside of the Game's limitations and handicaps). In Lore Tirion and the forces of the Ashen Verdict overwhelmed the Lich King, as far as I've heard. Plain and simple.


Edit: My own folly blinds me. I'm sorry. Let me ask you a question that you can actually answer, Brit: How did the allmighty Arthas get stuck in the Nexus, faceplanting right into wild, busty female barbarians and cunning Demon Hunters?