Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Todesbote]

Good job on the list. I'm really impressed by your consistency. You seem to still have hope for Subtlety and are trying to make our feedback heard, thank you for that. I gave up on this a few weeks ago. Giving feedback on the official forums week after week makes me feel like a broken record talking into an echo chamber while being ignored by Blizzard in the loudest possible way. That Celestalon post about AoE ("take it or leave it - there are other classes if you want") finally gave me the rest. No words on our terrible talent tree without choices or customization. No words on our entire Artifact tree still being designed around a passive Shadow Dance 1.0. Not even a single post that gives the impression that they are listening and seeing the same issues as we do. Nothing.

How do you still find the energy to try and save this spec while they ignore everything we say and pretend everything is fine?

[Mafic]

The feedback at this point is more for the first or second patch which is when you start to see Rogue changes. Blizz tends to err on the side of caution and are very conservative to hand out buffs to Rogue specs.

It seems that Blizz has dug in and has settled on Sub being a single target spec, Outlaw as the AoE/cleave spec, and the multi dotting aspect is clearly an Assassination niche. Sure you could multi dot 2-3 mobs as Legion Sub but beyond that you start to become energy starved. At that point tunneling a single target is way better for Legion Sub.

Also notice that Sub talents, like Outlaw and Assassination talents follow mostly a themed tiers approach. Assassination somewhat deviates from this with the poison talents scattered in the talent tree. However, beyond that you have themed tiers of free damage (Outlaw tier 15) a stealth tier, CP/energy tier (Anticipation, Vigor, Deeper Strategem), survivability tier (Leeching/Iron Stomach/Soothing Darkness, Elusiveness, Cheat Death), etc.

This is very different from other classes talent trees where survivability talents are often directly competing with mobility talents (eg Warlocks). Rogues don't have to choose between Grappling Hook or Elusiveness. I think this is why Rogue talents are so bland in comparison to other classes. Just a hunch of mine.

[elfporn]

Sounds like you're giving up mafic, though with the way they seem to be willfully ignoring most feedback, i can see where you're coming from.

There are small things they could do with our aoe, shadow nova has potential, if it were tied to mastery for example, or buffed via an artifact trait, it could become a more competitive cleave, though it still has shitty pvp implications. They could create a talent to tie it to shadow strike and place it to compete with strong ST talents (anticipation/deeper strat perhaps)

We've got a couple months yet, i don't think we'll see massive changes, but small tweaks to improve gameplay are certainly a possibility

I'm still keeping an eye out for feedback to add to my list. Grievances/issues-->solutions format if possible.

[Zoulis]

Man they can't even do a good job with our april fools jokes kek, though cheat death one was ok I guess :P

To be honest I don't mind having a specc for aoe/cleave and a specc for single target at all. But that might be me. As long as they work properly

[Mafic]

Sounds like you're giving up mafic, though with the way they seem to be willfully ignoring most feedback, i can see where you're coming from.

There are small things they could do with our aoe, shadow nova has potential, if it were tied to mastery for example, or buffed via an artifact trait, it could become a more competitive cleave, though it still has shitty pvp implications. They could create a talent to tie it to shadow strike and place it to compete with strong ST talents (anticipation/deeper strat perhaps)

We've got a couple months yet, i don't think we'll see massive changes, but small tweaks to improve gameplay are certainly a possibility

I'm still keeping an eye out for feedback to add to my list. Grievances/issues-->solutions format if possible.

I wouldn't say I have given up but I am being more pragmatic about it. You can still continue to give feedback but Blizz is often going to use data they are privy to so they can alter or buff Rogue talents. Remember redirect and how it lead to the addition of Marked for Death?

Once it hits live and they have enough data only then you will start to see changes to Sub IMVHO.

[elfporn]

Man they can't even do a good job with our april fools jokes kek, though cheat death one was ok I guess :P

To be honest I don't mind having a specc for aoe/cleave and a specc for single target at all. But that might be me. As long as they work properly

I certainly didn't like switching to combat for every other fight during progression, and with the artifacts, our eggs will be in one basket, secondary artifacts will require as much effort as the first one.

[Todesbote]

I certainly didn't like switching to combat for every other fight during progression, and with the artifacts, our eggs will be in one basket, secondary artifacts will require as much effort as the first one.

I don't wanna be the guy but it seems it will go down that route again. Maybe we should ask Celestalon for a solution... wait he already gave us one:

[Zoulis]

I certainly didn't like switching to combat for every other fight during progression, and with the artifacts, our eggs will be in one basket, secondary artifacts will require as much effort as the first one.

Well I'm on the boat that each specc should be better at something, cause if they're all equal on any given fight there's more or less no reason to have 3 different dps speccs. Ok ofc they have differenet playstyles that someone might prefer one from the other, but at the end of the day there'd be no reason to switch between them.
I see the artifact concern but i'm still holding out hope that it won't be completely retarded and we're going to have access to similar-level artifacts for each specc before raiding starts.

Anyway this is actually the least of my concerns. I wouldn't mind ending up having equally good speccs at everything as long as they're working correctly and are fun to play. For the life of me I think they decided that after they payed heed to our feedback when all this started, that they'd not touch it again. Fury warriors e.g are being changed, pretty massively, all the time when they were a much more fleshed out specc even during their initial launch than sub is atm

[Smaxy]

Did you post your consolidated feedback, elfporn? Or are still waiting (you have access right?)

When I say I want one or two AoE focused talents to increase our AoE, 1) I am not asking for an encounter defining AoE ability like Bladestorm 2) these talents would be on the same row as single talent options- no fight is purely AoE (you do get fights like Tectus where the most important part of the fight is frantic mass AoE though, but this is the exception NOT the norm) so by opting into them, you are sacrificing part of your single target capabilities. Ideally, by opting into both (if we had two) you'd up your AoE to acceptable/moderate levels, at the cost of single target.

I'm a raider and my endgame is raiding, but to be frank, this change isn't even really for me. Excluding rare exceptions, there is always going to be a demand for high, prioritized single target damage(assuming balancing is done correctly, we should be fine damage wise as Sub Rogues for raiding- gameplay... Not so much as we've all discussed). What about people who aren't raiders, and are working on Dungeon content, whether Heroic, Mythic, or Challenge Modes? They don't have 2 Fury Warriors with Bladestorm to make up for their lack of burst AoE. They're screwed and either have to severely underperform OR deal with that mess that is Outlaw. Then, we get into the whole discussion about swapping specs and Artifact Power.


What really irks me is how utterly shitty our talent options are. My god. I plan on playing Feral for splits in Legion and I played Enhancement since the dawn of WoW, you can bet there is going to be a section comparing the depth and gameplay relevance of those talent trees to our own when I get my essay up. It's ridiculous.

Now back to work):

[elfporn]

No access, most feedback seems to be covered with my initial assessment, though pvp feedback is bare. I want to add in a few more things, ill repost shortly

[Smaxy]

Ah I see, alright

[shaunika123]

I certainly didn't like switching to combat for every other fight during progression, and with the artifacts, our eggs will be in one basket, secondary artifacts will require as much effort as the first one.

pretty sure they've said that's not gonna be the case(artifact swapping that is)

and isnt it better that we have specs specifically designed for a purpose(ergo it's better for that than a spec that's for multiple stuff)
the only reason i didnt like swapping to combat is because i dont like combat, but outlaw seems a tad better.

[elfporn]

pretty sure they've said that's not gonna be the case(artifact swapping that is)

and isnt it better that we have specs specifically designed for a purpose(ergo it's better for that than a spec that's for multiple stuff)
the only reason i didnt like swapping to combat is because i dont like combat, but outlaw seems a tad better.

It is true that they've said they don't want that to be the case, it's also true that each spec should be stronger in some respect or other, however, the complete non-viability for aoe encounters that sub currently has (for progressison atleast) is the main complaint about it.

Also, rogue over all specs doesn't have any sort of good burst-cleave outside of maybe blade flurry, and that's not likely to be very impactful in legion (tuning maybe)

Dot cleave/necrotic plague with sin, sustained with combat, burst cleave with sub, i'd be happy with this.

And in the end it's going to have to really wait until a tuning pass; shadow nova might be very strong, and i don't know if DFA's aoe benefits from sub's mastery(anyone confirm 100%?)....i can honestly say i've never used it.

And finally. Last call for additions to my feedback list i compiled a page or two ago, ill be making revisions and reposting this evening

[Naiattavain]

Good job on the list. I'm really impressed by your consistency. You seem to still have hope for Subtlety and are trying to make our feedback heard, thank you for that. I gave up on this a few weeks ago. Giving feedback on the official forums week after week makes me feel like a broken record talking into an echo chamber while being ignored by Blizzard in the loudest possible way. That Celestalon post about AoE ("take it or leave it - there are other classes if you want") finally gave me the rest. No words on our terrible talent tree without choices or customization. No words on our entire Artifact tree still being designed around a passive Shadow Dance 1.0. Not even a single post that gives the impression that they are listening and seeing the same issues as we do. Nothing.

How do you still find the energy to try and save this spec while they ignore everything we say and pretend everything is fine?

yes these are the problems when playing rogue. we are just expected to figure out a way around certain problems. example we could never attack from front successfully the main frontal attack is hemorrhage; i think the specs should include a low energy cost combo generator, like hemorrhage that low on damage low on energy costs. aside from that problem right there frontal assault are doomed.

the new talents solve the problems the rogue is having. it was always energy regen being in balance with the rest of everyone's resource. but using an extra 20% buff to damage does help so its either the double selection of those energy talents or six combo points plus finisher damage; im really glad they gave us choice on that.

i think the use of equipment be open to other equipment selections gives us our wanted combat style. like the specs require certain weapon usage restrictions. not just rogue but i see it with warriors to. if i played assassination i would want to use a dagger and sword but the spec requires daggers. on the warrior i would like to use a shield and a two handed weapon for main hand. either arms or fury and prot! so thats not going to happen anytime soon. thanks for posting i know rogue has the hardest rotations in game.

[elfporn]

Feedback List

Grievances and Major Issues:
************************

Shadow Blades
-Weak ability for long cooldown (3min)
-No SnD means it is much weaker than in the past
-Works on auto attacks only

Goremaw's Bite
-Unoriginal, un-fun, boring ability
-1 minute cooldown for damage and 8 second slow is lackluster in the extreme

Shadow Nova
-Uncontrollable aoe during pvp situations means breaking CC (sap, blind, etc)

Akaari's Soul
-Uncontrollable damage during pvp situations means breaking CC, or telegraphing ability use

AoE options
-aoe options are limited, uninspired, and un-fun

Talents
-talent choices are leaning towards the illusion of choice
-talents will be "set it and forget it" again

Concerns and QoL issues:
***********************

Energy regeneration
-Worry is that no energy-over-time ability will lead to very slow downtimes between shadow dance/vanish
-No relentless strikes

Backstab
-Why is this ability the only one in the game with a positional requirement?
-Despite removing the "hard requirement" from backstab, it still forces players into a positioning requirement

Symbols of Death
-Why is this on the GCD?
-"Punishing" ability to maintain
-Un-fun and un-innovative ability overall

Nightblade
-Duration is too low

Death from Above
-loss of control
-animation/ability speed is too slow

Alacrity
-Stack time too high (admittedly, it's highrisk/reward)

Solutions
********************

Backstab
-Replace this with gloomblade
-OR remove the soft-requirement

Nightblade
-Increase duration to match rupture
-OR make backstab/gloomblade increase duration by 1sec(or X sec)
-Make nightblade undispellable

Death from Above
-Speed up animation
-Shadow Clone the animation

Shadow Nova
-Make it not break CC

Akaari's Soul
-Make it not break CC

AoE options
-Provide a talent row with aoe options
-Add an artifact trait to modify shadow nova
-Add a talent to tie shadow nova ot shadowstrike, in competition with strong single target talents
-Add a talent to provide burst cleave in competition with strong ST talents(not necessarily shadow nova)
-Add a talent that is an aoe finisher, again in competition with ST talents
-Make Shadow Nova scale with mastery
-Add in the relentless strikes effect (finishers return energy) for Shuriken Storm use

Shadow Blades
-Remove the CP gen, make ALL attacks deal shadow damage
-Tie it to stealth, similar to Master of Subtlety
-Make the CP gen stronger(add 1), add relentless strikes effect(energy return on finisher)

Energy Regeneration
-Increase energy gained from haste
-Add energy regen to SoD
-Add energy regen to Nightblade

Goremaw's Bite
-Complete redesign

Symbols of Death
-Swap with Shadow Blades, add CP generation from Shadow Blades(makeSoD a 3min cd with dmg+cp gen)
-Pull it off the GCD
-Add passive energy regen
-Add an additional effect such as chance for next eviscerate(or DFA) to inflict shadow damage instead of physical

Alacrity
-Reduce stack time

#############
Talents
#############
-Talents are lackluster, with choices that aren't fun, and point towards a "set it and forget it" loadout, similar to WoD talents

-The level 75 talent row is rediculously boring and uninspired, they are more for solo play and pvp, however, better talents can be had in that row, for example: Make the level 75 row into a set of aoe talents, modifying shadow nova

Solution:

-Swap Alacrity with Relentless Strikes, this would make the level 90 row into a resource focused choice, and put Alacrity in a place to compete on more equal footing.

-Make the level 75 talent row into an AoE talent row; possibly move DFA here

{Talent Solutions per Smaxy}
-Master of Shadows to talent, WoD Relentless Strikes baseline. If you want don't want to pool for SD, you can talent into it. Smooths out AoE phase with Shuriken Storm usage.
-Master of Subtlety baseline. Fits the spec.
-remove Weaponsmaster, Vigor, Alacrity, and Relentless Strikes (Legion) from talents. Make Enveloping Shadows baseline. In addition to possibly altering lvl 75 row (which I could support, but not as important IMO) we get five new talents (assuming Master of Shadows as a talent took spot of Master of Subtlety).

Related to AoE options in talents: I believe we should have AoE options, yes, but not three different AoE options in a row... Absolutely not. That's not really giving much choice, just the illusion of choice- unless the talents drastically change how we deal AoE damage. I'd like one or two AoE talents (if two, on different rows) and have them on the same row as Single Target talents, so that there is a trade-off. You sacrifice ST dps to increase AoE damage. No to AoE row.
{/quote}


Overall:
********************

The spec is headed in a decent enough direction, small tweaks and redesigns are needed to put it back on the straight and narrow.

**PS: Bringing back Relentless Strikes[live] may severely unbalance energy generation in combination with existing legion effects (Master of shadows and/or Relentless Strikes[Legion]), however, replacing Relentless Strikes[Legion] with the Live version may smooth energy regen and make dumping/capping energy before/after entering stealth less of a hassle.

[Mindscape]

The whirl of DFA does indeed scale with mastery.

[elfporn]

The whirl of DFA does indeed scale with mastery.

Thanks for the confirmation!

[Deleted]

The most interesting artifact trait IMO is the immune to fall damage one, just shows how lacking and uninteresting the rest is. Some of the traits are designed for the passive Dance, and so it makes zero sense that they aren't changed yet. They really really need to change both the traits and some of the talents, the current state is so lacking and just so not interesting, makes me sad.

[KiwifruitOCE]

Not sure why people want enveloping shadows baseline. Awful spell, shadow techniques by itself is enough I feel. The 40 energy cost feels terrible.

Do you guys really want to be spamming enveloping shadows in between boss pulls? Cuz that's going to be a thing if this talent is the clear choice.

[Deleted]

Energy Regen Video, perhaps this can be used as hard evidence?