[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Julmara]

better a lame rotaion than spaming mindless tigerpalm

[keqe]

well its still better than spam mindless tiger palm

better a lame rotaion than spaming mindless tigerpalm

Yeah, because the replacement having 3s CD to have 2s to pick your nose is better

/s

[Julmara]

when you can pick your nose in a myhic raid you are doing stuff wrong

[keqe]

when you can pick your nose in a myhic raid you are doing stuff wrong

Well, if there is a situation you don't have to do anything for 2 seconds, why not?

Don't take things too literally.

[Julmara]

i just like more the cd you can throw other stuff in there like the shorter kegsmash you have to think a little , the oh i dont have nothing to press so i just press tigerpalm cause i can do it forever anyway is gone

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is iron skin brew on a 1 sec extra global cd so you cant spam it by mistake ?

[keqe]

i just like more the cd you can throw other stuff in there like the shorter kegsmash you have to think a little , the oh i dont have nothing to press so i just press tigerpalm cause i can do it forever anyway is gone

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is iron skin brew on a 1 sec extra global cd so you cant spam it by mistake ?

Yes, the IsB has the same kind of inner CD like PB.

But on the rotation, if they for example tune RJW to be bad (special delivery outclassing AoE/Niuzao ST) and with gear that isn't very heavily biased toward haste (like alpha starting gear is), there will be holes in the rotation. Keg smash CD is longer, less energy to spam TP. You will have situations you just wait recharging energy and pressing BoS.

Same situation as currently kind of, but instead the "TP" will have CD so instead of "mindless spam", You "mindless spam" and pick your nose. So even if the current situation is supposed to be bad, it is just worse in legion.

[towelliee]

Cenarius - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1877&wipes=1
Tichondrius - https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s=1862&wipes=1

Some of the logs have you only hitting IsB 7 times on longest attempts on bosses is it suppose to be that low? Watching others play it they stack it pretty fast at start then keep it up entire fight unless they changed something

[Leblue]

That does seem pretty low considering the amount of brew you could churn out. What talent were you using out of curiousity? That said, if you didn't feel too squishy with what's almost an entirely new class in the new raiding environment that's pretty good for Heroic I'd think.

I'm still not sure how I feel with RJW being something we grab to help fill in gaps in our rotation for those of us who prefer to be actively hitting something. I know I greatly prefer having a free filler like current Tiger Palm to hit just so I'm always doing something and not just staring at a the boss waiting to be able to play the game, but to each their own on that.

[Rilas13]

I am not in Alpha, just watching lots of videos/streams and making my own conclusions.

I keep checking the Alpha forums to get an idea of what the testers think. Most common feedback for this iteration:

1. Rotation feels disjointed
2. Gift of the Ox isn't popular in its current form
3. Staggering & Purifying feels good
4. RJW being the only way to fill GCD gaps, and max damage

I think Blackout Strike(BS) & Breath of Fire(BoF) need to have more synergy with the rotation, right now they just feel like these two buttons are hit on CD which isn't very interesting.

BM talents as a whole aren't very exciting for Legion, but my primary concern is the 90 & 100 rows.
I like RJW but it should only be effective with 2-3+ targets.
Invoke Niuzao feels odd in this tier, and like a different flavor of the statue, making him more of a defensive CD and possibly in a different row rather than a pet with taunt might be better.
Special delivery doesn't feel good, I would like something there for single target rotation improvement instead of a fairly uncontrollable passive.
Our lvl 100 tier is just uninspired. Nothing there changes your rotational gameplay.

Lastly they removed Expel Harm because they didn't like BM healing and then made Gift of the Ox very strong heals, and Celestial Fortune is potentially very strong on top of RNG and has zero interaction. Just the possibility of an uncontrollable clutch heal, which reminds me of our new Mastery.
If we are going to have healing be part of the spec still I would much rather giving us an Effuse proc or something we can control. Though ideally I would like us to just be sturdy brawlers that can control our intake enough to not need to heal ourselves much.

[Inuyaki]

Somehow I would like to see higher hp pools...

Let's assume you have 3mio hp and a healer's heal heals for 500k (I have no clue about healer model atm tbh)
You are at 50% hp and 2 healers start their heal at the same time to save you (uncoordinated raiding here), because you could die in 2 hits.
Well, you dodge the next hit, so still 1.5mio hp missing, but both heals crit and proc Celestial Fortune... 4mio heal with 2.5mio of that being overheal, feels just sad
When all 3 players have 30% crit, that chance is not even that low, it sits at 0.81%, which means it should happen 1-2 times in a fight in average.

At this stage (and w/o being in alpha) I would just ignore CF and therefore Crit.

[Deleted]

I think Blackout Strike(BS) & Breath of Fire(BoF) need to have more synergy with the rotation, right now they just feel like these two buttons are hit on CD which isn't very interesting.

There are interactions with the artifact and these two spells.

Dark Side of the Moon: Take 5% less damage from the next attack after your Blackout Strike. (15% when maxed out 3/3 without relics)
Dragonfire Brew: Casting Breath of Fire surrounds you with flame for until cancelled, dealing 1 Fire damage over 0 and reducing the damage dealt to the caster by up to 8%.


Here comes a question from my side now. Was anyone of you already able to test the higher tier traits like Dragonfire Brew? What exactly does "until cancelled" mean? Is it a channeling spell like Warlocks Hellfire? And what does "up to 8%" mean?

[Deleted]

Some of the logs have you only hitting IsB 7 times on longest attempts on bosses is it suppose to be that low? Watching others play it they stack it pretty fast at start then keep it up entire fight unless they changed something

There's a a whole range of reasons; on Cenarius I was on add duty so I had a lot of downtime at the beginning of the fight, on Tichondrius we were mainly figuring out positioning and dps priorities, so I didn't focus on it that much since tank damage was pretty low (outside of bloods which I just cooldowned through since we pretty much wiped 1-2 mins).

What talent were you using out of curiousity? That said, if you didn't feel too squishy with what's almost an entirely new class in the new raiding environment that's pretty good for Heroic I'd think.

I was running Secret Ingredients and Fortified Mind on that night on both fights just to get a feel for the rotation. For today I'll have maxed Ironskin Brew artefact nodes so I'll see how stupidly I can abuse Light Brewing.

Any requests on what you'd like tested for tonight's raid test?

[risingforce]

Question -with the removal Chi Explosion do we have any ranged ability to replace it?

First off, I love Chi Explosion and weaving it into rotations and -as an added bonus -it works well on both pulls and rounding up adds at range especially at 4 x Chi. But in Legion I don't see any abilities (other than Chi Wave and Chi Burst) that we can use to regularly pickup ranged mobs / stragglers / add duty / spread out trash packs. Perhaps I'm arguing for quality of life, but CE has been my flavour and personal choice of Brewmaster for a long time (Mythic raiding since MoP) and I fear that Legion will have me sorely missing Chi Explosion as WoD had me missing Clash.

I'd really hate us to lose that one ranged option without a substitute, tell me it ain't so?

Thanks

[Deleted]

Question -with the removal Chi Explosion do we have any ranged ability to replace it?

First off, I love Chi Explosion and weaving it into rotations and -as an added bonus -it works well on both pulls and rounding up adds at range especially at 4 x Chi. But in Legion I don't see any abilities (other than Chi Wave and Chi Burst) that we can use to regularly pickup ranged mobs / stragglers / add duty / spread out trash packs. Perhaps I'm arguing for quality of life, but CE has been my flavour and personal choice of Brewmaster for a long time (Mythic raiding since MoP) and I fear that Legion will have me sorely missing Chi Explosion as WoD had me missing Clash.

I'd really hate us to lose that one ranged option without a substitute, tell me it ain't so?

Thanks

No replacement for ChiEx but

- Kegsmash has baseline 15y range (20y with artifact trait) and the CD is reduced by haste now
- we still have crackling jade lighning
- we get flaming keg with our artifact which is a 40y keg throw (but with a 1.25min CD)
- we still have access to the statue


I also liked ChiEx for the range utility but I think we have enough for range pickup in Legion

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Any requests on what you'd like tested for tonight's raid test?

Its not raidtesting specific but the only thing I would like to know is how Dragonfire Breath is working if you have access to it.

[Deleted]

Its not raidtesting specific but the only thing I would like to know is how Dragonfire Breath is working if you have access to it.

It's still out of reach for me but I'll post some logs as soon as I can pick it up.

[Brewschii]

Do people have a sense whether the devs are succeeding in changing the model for tank incoming damage and healing? When they talk about making tanks more healer dependent, I assume they mean (1) reducing burst significantly (by cutting back either the frequency or the amount of burst damage) and some combination of (2) reducing tank healing and/or (3) increasing regular damage (mostly AA damage, I guess) so tanks need more external healing as a matter of course. From what I see here, the only thing I'm sure is happening is #2. So what about the other stuff?

It looks to me like the current BrM design generally works if they change the model for tank damage and healing -- and fails if they don't. Without an overhaul of the model, we'll have too few major defensives with CDs that are too long, healing talents like CF that will be overheals most of the time and won't help much with burst, etc. They'll end up needing to patch us with a brokenly OP IsB or a new Guard. I only ask because they said they were going to do this in WoD and didn't. Which might have something to do with the need for OP Stagger early on and super strong if not OP Guard throughout the expac.

Sorry if I've missed a conversation about this already. I haven't been paying attention to much Legion stuff aside from BrM, and there hasn't been much action on BrM until now.

[Deleted]

Do people have a sense whether the devs are succeeding in changing the model for tank incoming damage and healing? When they talk about making tanks more healer dependent, I assume they mean (1) reducing burst significantly (by cutting back either the frequency or the amount of burst damage) and some combination of (2) reducing tank healing and/or (3) increasing regular damage (mostly AA damage, I guess) so tanks need more external healing as a matter of course. From what I see here, the only thing I'm sure is happening is #2. So what about the other stuff?

It looks to me like the current BrM design generally works if they change the model for tank damage and healing -- and fails if they don't. Without an overhaul of the model, we'll have too few major defensives with CDs that are too long, healing talents like CF that will be overheals most of the time and won't help much with burst, etc. They'll end up needing to patch us with a brokenly OP IsB or a new Guard. I only ask because they said they were going to do this in WoD and didn't. Which might have something to do with the need for OP Stagger early on and super strong if not OP Guard throughout the expac.

Sorry if I've missed a conversation about this already. I haven't been paying attention to much Legion stuff aside from BrM, and there hasn't been much action on BrM until now.

I don't even think it's possible for them to succeed in the short term. It's mostly about healer psychology: you want to minimise the chance of someone dying, less hp => higher chance. As long as healers don't run out of mana they will always try to top people off, especially the tanks who take constant damage. In previous expansions there was always a point when gear was good enough for healer mana to sustain topping off everyone.

That being said I don't think our current mitigation model matters much in this regard, the name of the game for tanking (in a semi-hardcore environment) has always been spike minimisation and surviving oneshot abilities. This is mostly about damage smoothing from Ironskin Brew and our CDs and avoiding successive spikes with our mastery... on paper at least. Both our mastery and gift are pretty much reactive so they might still panic trigger in a healer AS they proc since there's a delay of them being noticable (either dodging next swing or having to pick up the orb).

On the other hand, in a very competitive raiding environment (or gold/server-first challenge modes) the most desirable trait of a tank will always be to push boundaries on just how much stuff you can pull and solo-tank. Can all tanks survive being hammered by a boss? Yes, ok. Can all tanks survive being hammered by a boss and 2 groups of trash (or 2-3 adds in raids)? Do they have enough tools to maintain aggro? If it's very serious damage do they have reliable cooldowns to chain to guarantee they stay alive while the healers blanket them?

This latter part is what worries me most. Whichever tank will pull ahead on the amount of stuff you can cheese (if any) will set the trend for popularity in lower-level raids and pugs, which will eventually lower the population on the other tanks, causing a shift in meta and cause people to cry for nerfs due to being forced to reroll.

[Inuyaki]

I don't even think it's possible for them to succeed in the short term. It's mostly about healer psychology: you want to minimise the chance of someone dying, less hp => higher chance. As long as healers don't run out of mana they will always try to top people off, especially the tanks who take constant damage. In previous expansions there was always a point when gear was good enough for healer mana to sustain topping off everyone.

But they drastically reduced additional manareg over the addon this time, at least they said they did
I don't think this would be hard to switch to a more relaxed way of healing if tank health pools really would become that big

[Deleted]

wow. I used my teleport to the class hall and instead of travelling there i was in Valsharah and fall there through the ground. After 2 seconds I disconnect. Stuck forever? O.o

[Deleted]

Live logging first boss https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/K9Z6d37DVh4pkXym/

Edit: keep losing aggro to our warrior tank, it's triggering me.