[SURVIVAL]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Azortharion]

You've no idea what you're talking about in that blog. If you wanna do a spec overview try to stick to the facts instead of hopping in the deep end trying to figure out what's "best" atm, because you're wrong every step of the way.

[Deleted]

You've no idea what you're talking about in that blog. If you wanna do a spec overview try to stick to the facts instead of hopping in the deep end trying to figure out what's "best" atm, because you're wrong every step of the way.

The "facts"? And what are those?

Half of the cries I read here is from people mad because of the change to melee. Lots of people saying that there is " no interaction" between abilities when Flanking Strike, Mongoose Bite and Fury of the Eagle are related. Could they be even more linked? Sure, but they already are, while there are still a lot of specs out there with 0 relation between skills where you just spam your button.

I've been playing Survival the most in the alpha, and is, by far, the funniest class I've played, followed by Demonology Warlock. Is easy to play the spec but hard to play it really well.


If you don't agree with my opinion, it's okay, I think I'll survive, but don't say I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Azortharion]

The facts being what the abilities do, and the damage they do. You know, stuff we can actually observe. When you start saying that Improved Traps is the best DPS talent (which is wrong) in that tier, for example, that's, well, like I said, wrong. That's what I mean by non-facts. That is why you don't know what you're talking about.

Your opinions are something entirely different, problem is you're trying to present the audience with wrongful information through unfounded speculation. If you can't back things like that up (like you can with your opinions) with something, then just don't bother.

[Eapoe]

Just wondering...as of right now on Alpha, does this even look like something that would even remotely do well in a raid for progression style guilds? Not asking comparisons of classes, like it wouldn't be taken over X class. Just would it even be remotely viable as far as damage numbers and how abilities work or is it just too much of a shambles spec to consider right now?

[Deleted]

Just wondering...as of right now on Alpha, does this even look like something that would even remotely do well in a raid for progression style guilds? Not asking comparisons of classes, like it wouldn't be taken over X class. Just would it even be remotely viable as far as damage numbers and how abilities work or is it just too much of a shambles spec to consider right now?

Considering it's an alpha, and that tunning still hasn't come, at the moment, it is.

I was top 3 dps on both raid bosses. With one or two tries I could already see when would be a good time to save Mongoose Bite stacks and Fury of the Eagle, and a 4+ Fury of the Eagle on 4-5 adds was a lot of damage. That plus Explosive Trap on a 15s cd, Dragonsfire Trap and Carve applying Serpent Sting to every target, it felt really strong.

[Pyrophobia]

Considering it's an alpha, and that tunning still hasn't come, at the moment, it is.

I was top 3 dps on both raid bosses. With one or two tries I could already see when would be a good time to save Mongoose Bite stacks and Fury of the Eagle, and a 4+ Fury of the Eagle on 4-5 adds was a lot of damage. That plus Explosive Trap on a 15s cd, Dragonsfire Trap and Carve applying Serpent Sting to every target, it felt really strong.

So you think they are done with tuning? They are still changing talents last time i checked.

[Deleted]

So you think they are done with tuning? They are still changing talents last time i checked.

No, what I'm saying is that they haven't started with tuning, and even if the class still has some things to improve, IN MY OPINION is looking really nice at the moment, we won't be able to say until tuning comes or if we see if they change some things, I still have hopes for some changes to Fury of the Eagle.

- - - Updated - - -

Just wanted to update you guys that the Devs have answered my tweet about Fury of the Eagle removing Mongoose Bite stacks and they confirmed my thoughts and it's a bug, so hopefully it will be fixed on next patch.

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...47922635198464

With Fury of the Eagle not removing Mongoose Bite stacks gameplay will change since we gotta track buff duration and Mongoose Charges to use a fully charged Fury of the Eagle and be able to still use 1-2 Bites.

However, I still think that making Fury of the Eagle refresh the Mongoose Bite buff duration would be an amazing, not op, change that would improve a lot the gameplay of the spec since you could fish for the 6-stack buff, use Fury of the Eagle at 1 second, refresh and meanwhile recover some charges to keep the burst, having basically a burst window every 45s, what would give Flanking Strike even more importance.

[Eapoe]

So you think they are done with tuning? They are still changing talents last time i checked.

Not being a jerk, but that's why I asked right now on Alpha how it's looking. I know turnings not done, but there's still an idea where classes are sitting and how well it does on its own. Mainly wondering how it was coming along is all without theory crafting or wish lists for things to be changed.

[Deleted]

The are 2 thing they need to do to change to make SV even remotly playable.
1) Scrap or re-think current mastery. Its so unbelivably bad scaling its not even funny.
A full 10 mastery points (thats "3000" mastery rating) give the pet attacks a increased chance of "2.5%" chance to give a stack of mongoose bite.
Just feel like the current mastery is a showcase of bad design. Its either really bad cause it really never procs. Or it might be to good cause they buff it and we go nuts on mastery and spam mongoose all day. But currently its a complete joke.

2) Focus regen. You cant even sustain a basic rotation with the current focus gain of 10.65 (alpha profile).
Carve/butchery at 40 focus is a joke. Even raptor strike at 25 focus is just not sustainable. Flakingstrike at 50 focus is a joke.
And when you start adding in talents that also cost focus this just makes it so much worse. Example Way of the maknatal is unplayable because of it, you just dont have 25 spare focus every 6-7 second.
Amoc at 30 focus is a pain to fit in the rotation.

Sure they havent done the number tuning. But i feel like this is a deeper problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Hi guys, after a lot of testing on the Alpha, I just finished writing a long post on my blog about the current state of the spec, possible improvements, what is lacking and all that.

I'm not copying it here to not spam and because it's fucking long, but hope you read it, like it and share it, so maybe Blizzard will hear and change a few things making the spec even more incredible.

http://jamesstark.wix.com/theunseenp...f2f28d5dd5843d

Just a few things ive noticed while reading it.

- Raptor Strike: Our filler and last priority. If you choose the Serpent Sting talent it's important to keep up the dot at all times, even if it does not hit as hard as Lacerate, it still is a good amoun of damage, and it's really easy to keep it up.

Easy to keep up ?? in what world are you living when you have 25 focus spare every 7 sec ?

- Carve: Our focus spender AoE. It has no cooldown and 40 focus cost. It does not hit bad at all, but it requires to be facing the enemies in a line to be as effective as possible. Once you learn to position yourself for that moment, it's a really good AoE.

40 focus for 25-30K frontal cleave dmg. Is that your idea of good damage/focus spent ?

- Hatchet Toss: Pretty useless. If you are gonna find yourself in the need of having to damage from a distance for a short periods of time, then you'll choose the Throwin Axes talent instead. This skill should get a little buff so we can use it as a filler for those times we need to get to the boss again and we have Harpoon on cooldown.

Compared to the other choices on T15 this is by far the current winner.
15 focus for 150K damgage when you either switch target or hit anything else.
Animal instinct is just junk with 33% of doing nothing(movement) and 33% to do more less nothing aswell (current mastery) and way of the moknathal is unsustainable focus wise.

- Muzzle: Our silence. Nothing more since it's the usual one.

Its not a silence. its a interupt. Big differnce.

- Wing Clip: 50% slow for 10s without cooldown. And what's even more important, it'll give us a 10% damage reduction for 6s after we use it, so it will be really usefull to reduce damage during fights.

You just kind of forgot that it also cost 30 focus that you NEVER gonna have spare. Sure 10% dmg reduction is nice. But you will NEVER use it if it has a cost attached to it.

- Aspect of the Eagle: 10% critical chance for us and our pet and a 100% chance on getting new stacks of Mongoose Bite. A pretty good cooldown that we must use after we use the first charge of Mongoose Bite.

Yea 10% crit and a wopping 3% increase to gain a stack of mongoose bite. AWSOME for a 2min CD.... ohhh wait... no its not.

- Steel Trap: Even if it sounds cool because of those 1500% AP on the dot, sadly, it won't proc on bosses or mobs inmune to stun, so we will only pick the talent for PvP or for bosses where there are adds that can/must be stunned. We reduce the duration of the stun from 1 minute to 30s but the damage is really good.

What? a) its NOT a stun. B) Works fine on bosses. The immune part your seeing is the ROOT effect. The dot works 100%.

- Sticky Bomb: 30s cooldown for a free to use knockback with a little bit of damage. It's something we won't really use in our rotation but in add fights will be usefull.

its a knockBACK not a knockDOWN. They changed this recently but before you posted atleast.

- Mortal Wonds: Lacerate damage will have a 2% chance to give us a Mongoose Bite proc. It's not bad. No, believe me, a 2% seems a joke, but it's really good. Since we'll have probably around 90-100% uptime, that's a lot of chances to get Mongoose Bite stacks, what will increase our burst damage and damage output in general. However, if it were to be a bit higher, it would be much better and, probably, unbalanced.

Ok.. now you got me... april 1st ??? no !?!?!?
"1" proc / min avg. so "1" extra mongoose bite is your idea of a "really good talent".

Thou ive have to say i totally agree with your thought so the mastery part.

[Eapoe]

So basically need to prune the shit out of abilities or severely reduce focus costs from the way it sounds? I understand high cost abilities, just looking at rogues with mutilate, but it's a lot different spamming 1 ability for CP's to use another ability for no energy then to use many abilities on the same spender.

[serra2]

Easy to keep up ?? in what world are you living when you have 25 focus spare every 7 sec ?

He is talking about Serpant Sting, which lasts for 15 secs, not Mok,Nathal

Yea 10% crit and a wopping 3% increase to gain a stack of mongoose bite. AWSOME for a 2min CD.... ohhh wait... no its not.

It ADDS 100% chance for Mongoose Bite Charges, like how Critical Aim adds 50% Crit Chance, and Rapid Fire adds 40% Haste. So you would have a 102% chance on the mastery.

"1" proc / min avg. so "1" extra mongoose bite is your idea of a "really good talent".

Thou ive have to say i totally agree with your thought so the mastery part.

Yeah, that mastery needs some work at the base level. Between this Spec and the complete dumpster fire that is Beastmastery at the moment, I am starting to think Warlock is looking good for me in Legion...

[Deleted]

He is talking about Serpant Sting, which lasts for 15 secs, not Mok,Nathal


It ADDS 100% chance for Mongoose Bite Charges, like how Critical Aim adds 50% Crit Chance, and Rapid Fire adds 40% Haste. So you would have a 102% chance on the mastery.

This. Maybe if you stopped being such a dick and a cryer and instead, starting looking at things as you should, you'd be able to read.

As serra said, I was talking about Serpent Sting, which is really easy to keep up, in fact, what is really hard is to lose the dot even when doing a 6 Mongoose Combo + Fury of the Eagle, you have enough time to use Raptor Strike.

Second, Aspect of the Eagle gives you a 100% chance to get a Mongoose Bite proc, that means pet autoattacs and Flanking Strike give you Mongoose Bite chances. In fact, at the moment is even a little op and you have to forget about dots and shits and just spam Mongoose Bite and Flanking Strike because of the number of charges you get back.

Third, 40 focus for a 25-30k frontal damage for enemy hit, yeah, it's not bad, and if you have taken Serpent Sting talent, the moment you have 2 targets it's better to use Carve to keep the dot up instead of Raptor Strike.

Fourth, Mok'nathal is not bad, and is easy to keep up considering it changes your rotation since if you are going for Mok'nathal, keeping Lacerate up is not a priority, but instead keeping the buff up with 5 stacks to unleash all Mongoose Bites and Flanking Strikes as you can during it. And since Mongoose Bite has no focus cost, you'll only spend focus on Flanking Strike and Raptor Strike.

Fifth, Muzzle is an interrupt not a silence, ok, sorry, forgive me my life since it's something that makes the class totally useless (ok no).

Sixth, Wing Clip having a focus cost. So...what? I guess that you won't ever use Feint as a rogue since it has an energy cost also, making it stupid. Yes, if you know there is a damage phase incoming, you'll use one Wing Clip. I did it yesterday on Spelleater boss when the frost adds where casting the freezing aoe, and I didn't fuck my dps because of that. Is not something we'll use all the time, but we'll use it on phases where we know damage will come (Gorefind Feast of Souls for example, not all the time, but you could use it a lot since you'll have BL effect).

Seventh, Steel Trap is not proccing sometimes the dot, so it's a bug then and I gotta report it.

Eight, knockback instead of knockdown, my bad, I'll change it asap.


And finally, one proc each minute. Yeah, as I said, it may be low, but it procs. A little bit higher would be cool, but you cannot give it a 10% chance or it would be really broken.
By the way, Mortal Wounds also works with Aspect of the Eagle, so each time it ticks, you get a charge, and that's so fucking op you cannot even imagine.

I don't want to say the spec is perfect, because IT IS NOT.

And I'm trying to say that clearly, the spec has some flaws, and I'm hoping that Blizzard will fix them (mastery and Fury of the Eagle, and some talents, since at the moment, Mastery is a shit as you said being it so low).

But the spec is not bad, what's even more, at the moment it's good, it's funny and despite all that focus hate, it's not focus starved, I still have to find a fight where I find myself waiting for a button to press. We have 4 focus spenders, one of 'em being our AoE (so we change Raptor Strike for Carve), and we have 5 non-spender skills, 6 if you even use Sticky Bomb on CD.

And since you all love so much numbers and so (in case you can't see who I am XD I'm Achelonsita, a proud Gnome Survival Hunter with a spear bigger than her whole body and a pet three times his body size):



Just did it now, last boss on The Arcway Normal Mode.

At the moment I'm on 33,09% critical strike (2714), 24,21% haste (3045) and 18,09% mastery (1514 what translates into a shitty 4,5% chance of more charges).
Oh yeah, and a 5,5% versatility! (versatility op (ok no)).
That is at level 103, when scaling to level 110 and the ilevel for the dungeon (which I don't remember atm sorry) it's around 30% crit chance, 20% haste and 18% mastery. That means I have 12 focus/second, more than enough to keep the rotation up. I need more testing and more gear for it, but it seems that reaching 15 focus/second will be the point to go, and that's easy since almost all my gear has crit/mastery.

In the end, we are still in Alpha, and just like we gotta say what is wrong and should be changed (Mastery, some Talents) we must also say what it's okay, it's broken, and we gotta say it being as objective as we can and not falling in personal preferences and so.

[c000]

wish they'd somehow bring back counterattack in some form for survival.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I'm reading no MD to pet, low survivability (ironic)... Do we see anyone leveling as SV, or is it only viable when you have a tank to protect you?

[Nakauri]

With Fury of the Eagle not removing Mongoose Bite stacks gameplay will change since we gotta track buff duration and Mongoose Charges to use a fully charged Fury of the Eagle and be able to still use 1-2 Bites.

However, I still think that making Fury of the Eagle refresh the Mongoose Bite buff duration would be an amazing, not op, change that would improve a lot the gameplay of the spec since you could fish for the 6-stack buff, use Fury of the Eagle at 1 second, refresh and meanwhile recover some charges to keep the burst, having basically a burst window every 45s, what would give Flanking Strike even more importance.

Did you just get in this build?

Prior builds of Survival allowed you to continue using your rotation through Fury of the Eagle. In this manner you'd use Fury of the Eagle then continue your normal rotation, allowing you to build the mongoose stacks up through the 4s. I'm personally not a fan of this new "fury" of the eagle, and it plays a lot less nice with mok'nathal, which is already not playing nice with the rest of the toolkits focus costs.
edit; just to clarify, the prior build as of this posting date was doing something different: it was snapshotting the mongoose stack it was used at.

Just wondering...as of right now on Alpha, does this even look like something that would even remotely do well in a raid for progression style guilds? Not asking comparisons of classes, like it wouldn't be taken over X class. Just would it even be remotely viable as far as damage numbers and how abilities work or is it just too much of a shambles spec to consider right now?

I can't imagine a world where you would go Survival over Marksmanship in the current iterations. Viability on damage numbers can't be answered, and viability on how abilities work can't be answered without taking into consideration the toolkits of other specializations. But short answer, yes, you're not a magikarp, the specialization functions. Would you get in versus laughed at for progression? Different story.

[Azortharion]

The spec is mathematically focus starved playing with the current best setup of talents (aka not your idea of the best talents, Achelon). Your "numbers" that we love so much don't tell us anything except you being pretty bad at pushing meaningful DPS with Survival. They don't support your point in any way.

Way of the Mok'Nathal is not worth using right now because it's too expensive to use.
Keeping Lacerate up IS a priority. You have a damage meter, check out how much damage it does. That's ignoring the fact that it generates charges. For this same reason, Way of the Mok'nathal is pointless. Keeping it up without delaying anything is beyond impossible. Hell, the rotation is focus negative even without it.

I can't wait for your next crypost where you call someone a dick for pointing out that you're wrong.

[Deleted]

The spec is mathematically focus starved playing with the current best setup of talents (aka not your idea of the best talents, Achelon). Your "numbers" that we love so much don't tell us anything except you being pretty bad at pushing meaningful DPS with Survival. They don't support your point in any way.

Way of the Mok'Nathal is not worth using right now because it's too expensive to use.
Keeping Lacerate up IS a priority. You have a damage meter, check out how much damage it does. That's ignoring the fact that it generates charges. For this same reason, Way of the Mok'nathal is pointless. Keeping it up without delaying anything is beyond impossible. Hell, the rotation is focus negative even without it.

I can't wait for your next crypost where you call someone a dick for pointing out that you're wrong.

Probably not as much as I wait for your post where you show your mighty knowledge that no one can argue about.

By the way @Nakauri, there is an easy situation where someone would play Survival over Marksmanship. It's because they prefer to play it and they want to play a melee hunter instead of a ranged.

Oh and Azortharion, you can be as sarcastic as you want, and say all that you want, the point is, we have different opinions, and even if it's something that you find hard to believe, your opinion is not always the right one.

In the end, I don't give a fuck since for me the spec is on the good way and the most important, I'm having a lot of fun with it.

Oh, and DarklingThrush, I'm leveling as Survival and level 107 at the moment. 0 problems.

[Eapoe]

Did you just get in this build?

Prior builds of Survival allowed you to continue using your rotation through Fury of the Eagle. In this manner you'd use Fury of the Eagle then continue your normal rotation, allowing you to build the mongoose stacks up through the 4s. I'm personally not a fan of this new "fury" of the eagle, and it plays a lot less nice with mok'nathal, which is already not playing nice with the rest of the toolkits focus costs.



I can't imagine a world where you would go Survival over Marksmanship in the current iterations. Viability on damage numbers can't be answered, and viability on how abilities work can't be answered without taking into consideration the toolkits of other specializations. But short answer, yes, you're not a magikarp, the specialization functions. Would you get in versus laughed at for progression? Different story.

That's what I was wondering about. Just don't want to get shoe horned into a spec because it's the best/most fine tuned of the others. My guild is pretty lenient about what's brought to the group, however, if it can't push the numbers for progression or farm then forget about it. I'd just like for the spec to be decent and something that could be brought. So far, doesnt look like it.

[Nakauri]

My guild is pretty lenient about what's brought to the group, however, if it can't push the numbers for progression or farm then forget about it. I'd just like for the spec to be decent and something that could be brought.

If that's the only variable, you'll have to wait for damage tuning to find out.

[Huggykaze]

Probably not as much as I wait for your post where you show your mighty knowledge that no one can argue about.

By the way @Nakauri, there is an easy situation where someone would play Survival over Marksmanship. It's because they prefer to play it and they want to play a melee hunter instead of a ranged.

Oh and Azortharion, you can be as sarcastic as you want, and say all that you want, the point is, we have different opinions, and even if it's something that you find hard to believe, your opinion is not always the right one.

In the end, I don't give a fuck since for me the spec is on the good way and the most important, I'm having a lot of fun with it.

Oh, and DarklingThrush, I'm leveling as Survival and level 107 at the moment. 0 problems.

Could you post more detailed combat log info? Even from the dummy. Test time, prio list, how much damage each ability did in total and how many times you used them. Your buffs and debuffs uptimes etc. So we can judge whether you do it right or not :P Math has been wrong before, so was Azor, but right now I'm more prone to believe his math than your opinion.