Are 2004 "casuals" and 2016 "casuals" the same?

[McNeil]

Casuals in 2004 didn't actually raid much at all, not the final raids like Naxx atleast. In 2016 they can still be very much raiders even if you don't count LFR, reaching max level is much faster and easier so they atleast have more time left to try out raids.

[Zoldam]

Casual is the most misused term in this game. Remember kids, not all casuals are bad, though almost all bads are casual.

[Deleted]

Who, besides assholes, defines it like this?

Pretty much everyone in any group content I have met who wasn't a mythic raider. I have been told that I ruin groups' experience with my characters that have 740++ gear or that everyone in the group can afk now I am there to boost them. I can't get buffs in 5mans because casuals tell me that I don't need them and that I should shut up and kill things for them. I used to be indifferent to casuals - now I hate them well and truly.

Like, there are literally people in the game who have told me when I ask dispels for stuns and such that they don't want to stress too much and they rather have people die in groups than to put any effort into game because they don't want to pay attention. This has happened so many dozens of times this expansion that I have realized that these people aren't trolling - they are dead serious about wanting to get things, items and achievements, given to them by other people who "stress and care too much about a game".

Casuals like that are what ruined the community of WoW - not the hardcore players. I don't mind people failing in a game as long as they try and I will gladly use my mythic gear to help them - but casuals don't want to even try and I can't justify helping or being friendly to scum like that.

What I don't get is that where this subrace of humanity evolved from - I can't fathom the pride people take in not being able to press a handful of buttons in a game that's rather simple when compared to majority of games launched in the past decades.

[Kallisto]

What I don't get is that where this subrace of humanity evolved from - I can't fathom the pride people take in not being able to press a handful of buttons in a game that's rather simple when compared to majority of games launched in the past decades.

It's the "keeping it real", learning is stupid brigade the grew out of the late nineties onwards. Seen stand up comics tackle these lot all the time. They make no sense.

[Seefer]

12 years ago the game was new, the playerbase was young, and could invest the time into hardcore raiding. Now they have lives, jobs, families, responsibilites, and the game climate has changed. You cant do an apples to apples comparison. Besides, why do you give a shit? Play the game, or dont. Stop worrying about what other people are doing.

Oh look it's that bullshit excuse again lol, do you know how many people were adults during Vanilla/TBC? LOTS! Do you know how many raiders (heroic/mythic) are adults with families and jobs? LOTS!...........it's called time management, it is something adults know how to do.

[Shakari]

Trying to get people to improve and pull their own weight isn't a bad thing casual...

TBH the only thing I'm seeing is that do don't have a clue what casual actually means lol your using it as a metaphor for skill which it isn't :P

and "casuals" in the way you keep using it is a more recent creation usually used as an insult or slur or to generalise anyone considered not skilled enough.

[ComputerNerd]

The argument has been ignorant and elitist jerks being upset that they are not the sole audience of the game, and so have to apply some label to a group so they can be blamed for it.
Casual play has never been about this apparent desire to have an easy game, but is entirely about time-constraints.
It has never been about the skill, but entirely about blaming someone else for your own behaviour.

There is no difference in the casuals, only in the elitist jerks who keep wanting to use the phrase to describe something else entirely.

If you want to use a more accurate term, then the term "bads" seems to sum it up better.

Poor performance through lack of desire or effort.
That doesn't have to mean they are unskilled though, as there are those who use LFR etc as an extra lockout, but seem intent to just afk through it even though they could perform to a much higher standard.
Because it is below their "acceptable" standards.

Hardcore is about time commitment too, but the opposite of casual.
Where they can organise their life around their play, unlike causuals who have to organise their play around their life.

There are skilled and unskilled casuals.
There are skilled and unskilled hardcore.
And there are skilled and unskilled "bads" or jerks.

[Shakari]

Pretty much everyone in any group content I have met who wasn't a mythic raider. I have been told that I ruin groups' experience with my characters that have 740++ gear or that everyone in the group can afk now I am there to boost them. I can't get buffs in 5mans because casuals tell me that I don't need them and that I should shut up and kill things for them. I used to be indifferent to casuals - now I hate them well and truly.

Like, there are literally people in the game who have told me when I ask dispels for stuns and such that they don't want to stress too much and they rather have people die in groups than to put any effort into game because they don't want to pay attention. This has happened so many dozens of times this expansion that I have realized that these people aren't trolling - they are dead serious about wanting to get things, items and achievements, given to them by other people who "stress and care too much about a game".

Casuals like that are what ruined the community of WoW - not the hardcore players. I don't mind people failing in a game as long as they try and I will gladly use my mythic gear to help them - but casuals don't want to even try and I can't justify helping or being friendly to scum like that.

What I don't get is that where this subrace of humanity evolved from - I can't fathom the pride people take in not being able to press a handful of buttons in a game that's rather simple when compared to majority of games launched in the past decades.

I think your using the term casual player to define a poor player... they are not the same :P there's enough Mythic raiders who are casuals and there are enough people in 740+ gear like yourself that act just like your describing "casuals".

Hell some of the most obnoxious players I have personally ever grouped with are hardcore raiders does that mean all hardcore raiders have shitty personallity's and attitudes towards others.. ofc not. Hardcore or casual a poor player is a poor player the least you can do is label them correctly and not just jump on the "casuals are bad" bandwagon...
no bad players are bad and thats it.

[Seefer]

The argument has been ignorant and elitist jerks being upset that they are not the sole audience of the game, and so have to apply some label to a group so they can be blamed for it.
Casual play has never been about this apparent desire to have an easy game, but is entirely about time-constraints.
It has never been about the skill, but entirely about blaming someone else for your own behaviour.

There is no difference in the casuals, only in the elitist jerks who keep wanting to use the phrase to describe something else entirely.

If you want to use a more accurate term, then the term "bads" seems to sum it up better.

Poor performance through lack of desire or effort.
That doesn't have to mean they are unskilled though, as there are those who use LFR etc as an extra lockout, but seem intent to just afk through it even though they could perform to a much higher standard.
Because it is below their "acceptable" standards.

Hardcore is about time commitment too, but the opposite of casual.
Where they can organise their life around their play, unlike causuals who have to organise their play around their life.

There are skilled and unskilled casuals.
There are skilled and unskilled hardcore.
And there are skilled and unskilled "bads" or jerks.

Huh, now let me get this straight.............non-raiders (not casuals, because as I said raiders tend to be the more casual) who call raiders no lifers, basement dwellers, neckbeards, special snowflakes, elitist jerks (which btw asking someone to know how to play their class isn't elitist and it's more prickish to refuse) etc.........that's ok for them to insult people yet raiders can't? Hypocritical much? btw you don't know what casual is either, casual is how long you are in game and as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times by myself and others, raiders are more casual than non-raiders.

[Shakari]

The argument has been ignorant and elitist jerks being upset that they are not the sole audience of the game, and so have to apply some label to a group so they can be blamed for it.
Casual play has never been about this apparent desire to have an easy game, but is entirely about time-constraints.
It has never been about the skill, but entirely about blaming someone else for your own behaviour.

There is no difference in the casuals, only in the elitist jerks who keep wanting to use the phrase to describe something else entirely.

If you want to use a more accurate term, then the term "bads" seems to sum it up better.

Poor performance through lack of desire or effort.
That doesn't have to mean they are unskilled though, as there are those who use LFR etc as an extra lockout, but seem intent to just afk through it even though they could perform to a much higher standard.
Because it is below their "acceptable" standards.

Hardcore is about time commitment too, but the opposite of casual.
Where they can organise their life around their play, unlike causuals who have to organise their play around their life.

There are skilled and unskilled casuals.
There are skilled and unskilled hardcore.
And there are skilled and unskilled "bads" or jerks.

Hit the nail right on the head there, couldn't agree more myself.

- - - Updated - - -

Huh, now let me get this straight.............non-raiders (not casuals, because as I said raiders tend to be the more casual) who call raiders no lifers, basement dwellers, neckbeards, special snowflakes, elitist jerks (which btw asking someone to know how to play their class isn't elitist and it's more prickish to refuse) etc.........that's ok for them to insult people yet raiders can't? Hypocritical much? btw you don't know what casual is either, casual is how long you are in game and as has been pointed out NUMEROUS times by myself and others, raiders are more casual than non-raiders.

I'm guessing you either didn't read or didn't understand ComputerNerd's post as you remarkably manage to avoid most of the point he's trying to make in his post and somehow with what's left seemed to take it as a personal insult.

They didn't say its ok to insult anyone, just if your going to, then use a term that at least vaguely applicable and correct, and made observations on the type of people making the comments

And by definition the more hardcore you are then less casual you are, they're diametrically opposite terms in the way there used relating to wow, and they are not absolutes.

Realistically what ComputerNerd said is accurate:
"Hardcore is about time commitment too, but the opposite of casual. Where they can organise their life around their play, unlike causuals who have to organise their play around their life."

You can raid either way but hardcore spend more time dedicated to it, hence being hardcore.

[Ahovv]

The average MMORPG player was FAR different than the average MMORPG player today.

Quantifying / defining casual, from a pure standpoint of "number of hours devoted to game," should reflect the average.

MMORPGs of '04 and earlier required far, far more time...to do anything. Your casuals of 2016 would have quit and asked for their money back.

Sorry kids, you missed the golden era.

I'm quite glad I didn't raid in an era of 3-mechanic bosses. The grind to get there is largely irrelevant to me, because it was tedious, not difficult. There is a difference.

[Seefer]

You can raid either way but hardcore spend more time dedicated to it, hence being hardcore.

Time in game is time in game, it has nothing to do with raiding time because there is more to WoW than raiding (contrary to peoples opinion), I see someone who is on 3 hrs a day every day as not very casual as opposed to say a raider who is on 2-3 hrs 2-3 times a week, non-raiders spend more time on LFR than a regular raider would in normal raids each week.

I see non-raiders with 20 level 100's in full LFR/Tanaan gear, that is NOT casual.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm quite glad I didn't raid in an era of 3-mechanic bosses. The grind to get there is largely irrelevant to me, because it was tedious, not difficult. There is a difference.

I know right? Who wants to work up to something in a game and actually enjoy playing it? I mean c'mon this instant gratification just to bitch at Blizzard for being bored in 3 weeks is so fucking EPIC! YEAH! /sarcasm

[Chirri]

Do you feel that the "casual" term as used in 2016 is referring to players of the same playstyle habits as it was in 2004? Why/Why not? What are the implications of this (if any)?

The habits required of Vanilla casuals are different from the habits allowable in the current patch. The goals of casuals from early WoW may align a great deal with the goals of current casuals (generally), but the way to achieve said goals are different. One possible constant between the two could be time set aside to play, or the active avoidance of certain more competitive parts of the game (AH barons, PVP, Raiding).

Professor, do I need to answer in essay form, or can I just use bullet points? Will I get credit for the shared grade?

[styil]

Would be cool if people stopped throwing so many assumptions about player habits and how they changed over the years. Certain types of posters would really, really like to convince the rest of us that:

- player habits changed radically from 2004
- players no longer have time
- players have families that need time investment
- players have jobs that need time investment
- players like a fast road to sweet, frequent rewards. "It's an RPG, there needs to be progression, even for casuals". But these casuals run out of content because they choose to do the ezymode, if they would have done the real stuff, not LFR, they would have months of upgrades ahead

It seems like Blizzard is assuming this more than players are...

[zorkuus]

Certain types of posters would really, really like to convince the rest of us that:
- players have families that need time investment
- players have jobs that need time investment

Why is this so hard to imagine? Time didn't stop, people grew older. Not a difficult concept.

[Kallisto]

Why is this so hard to imagine? Time didn't stop, people grew older. Not a difficult concept.

Because they are the few that actually believe the whole "wow players live in basements of parents and do nothing but play wow." is the most likely of reasons.

[Derpling]

I've been playing MMOs since the early nineties. Casuals, enthusiasts, and elitist assholes have been a thing since way back then, and they haven't changed very much until now except in that there are a lot more of them.

[zorkuus]

Because they are the few that actually believe the whole "wow players live in basements of parents and do nothing but play wow." is the most likely of reasons.

Probably some psychological projection going on with them.

[Deleted]

No, most definitely not. I was casually playing WoW back around that time (not exactly in 2004 but few years after before they started nerfing everything) and not only was the game inherently different in some aspects, also the community was. As soon as something takes longer than a couple of days to do, people go to the forums complaining how mature they are and hence why they cannot spend so much time doing xyz so they demand to have it nerfed (I find it quite ironic that someone who claims to be so mature spends a lot of time complaining about a meaningless AV in a video game). Back around 2004-2007, if you asked for something to be nerfed you were just told to get lost and/ or git gud.

Casuals for me back then (which I was myself): Not playing eight hours a day (for like raiding, max level PVP etc.)
Casuals nowadays: Demand excellent rewards for zero effort required (LfR), complain about X if it takes more than one attempt to pull off and regardless of what they demand, always threaten to cancel your subscription when your will is not fulfilled

[Cinnamohn]

If you take the 2004 casual and multiply it by Jay Wilson, you'll get the 2016 casual. To experience this phenomenon for yourself, simply take an ordinary cat and swap brains with it.