Formula 1 World Championship 2016

[Vestig3]

I'm sure we've all seen the conversation between the two of them, but I'll post a partial transcript. Kvyat acknowledges that he forced Vettel to change his line to avoid contact.

He was in a sandwich with Kimi and kvyat and behind also 2 cars he couldnt go anywhere but where he went.

[Eleccybubb]

Well just watched it on C4. Kyvat could have backed off a bit because Vettel really had nowhere to go hence why he ended up hitting Kimi but great comeback for him to take 2nd and Kimi 5th. Lewis however sadly just an incident because Nasr was either gonna end up having Lewis run into him or smash into Kimi. Also again congratulations to Rosberg for another flawless and faultless race, he's really showing his pace since Mexico 2015 and now has the same number of consecutive wins as Schumacher! :O. Hopefully Vettel will win next time out eh? (Total Seb fanboy)

[Merkava]

Look at the replay of the start. Vettel defended badly, so Kvyat actually pulled ahead of him on the inside. It was a very aggressive move, but perfectly fine. Vettel didn't expect it, got scared for a moment and overreacted by turning left, just as Raikkonen sharply turned right after going wide.

Racing incident.

Kvyat pulled ahead of him with two wheels over the inside curb, and then he drifted wide to the middle of the track. Look where Kvyat was when he hit Raikkonen. Kvyat admitted that he forced Vettel into a situation where Vettel had to make a decision to either hold his line and make contact, or yield position. Care to dispute either of those things?

[Paranoid Android]

Vettel acting like a baby for the reason it was Red Bull who damaged his car. Any other car he would have chalked it up to racing.

[Merkava]

Vettel acting like a baby for the reason it was Red Bull who damaged his car. Any other car he would have chalked it up to racing.

The Red Bull didn't damage his car. The Red Bull didn't touch him.

[Paranoid Android]

The Red Bull didn't damage his car. The Red Bull didn't touch him.

Red Bull forcing him into his own car. On the initial radio call you could hear his disdain for Red Bull. I get it. Above all he never wants Red Bull to finish above him.

[Merkava]

Red Bull forcing him into his own car. On the initial radio call you could hear his disdain for Red Bull. I get it. Above all he never wants Red Bull to finish above him.

So you admit that it was Kvyat's fault. Well that was my point all along.

[Paranoid Android]

So you admit that it was Kvyat's fault. Well that was my point all along.

Dude! Did I ever reply or argue with you. I'm just stating my opinion that Vettel doesn't like his old team Red Bull.

[Merkava]

Dude! Did I ever reply or argue with you. I'm just stating my opinion that Vettel doesn't like his old team Red Bull.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. You're wrong on all 3 of your points.

1. The Red Bull didn't damage Vettel's car.
2. Vettel can't be said to be acting like a baby if he's in the right.
3. Vettel would be just as upset if it was any other car.

[Merkava]

Nothing to dispute, we completely agree. Kvyat made a legit move, Vettel didn't react properly and a crash followed. Kvyat left more than enough room for another car on the outside, even though he got hit by Kimi.

It's the most basic overtaking move there is. You break late to push ahead on the inside and then make the opponent go wide. Hamilton did that 24/7 vs Rosberg during the last 2 seasons, except unlike Kvyat, he never gave Rosberg that one car space.

We do not agree. Kvyat made overly aggressive move, putting two wheels off the inside curb, putting himself on a trajectory that would have intersected with Vettel and caused contact had Vettel not taken evasive action. Kvyat himself admits that. If Vettel had held his line, same as Hamilton did in Bahrain, there would have been contact and Kvyat would have been given a penalty. People who think that simply because there was no contact, that Kvyat made a clean move. He didn't. He forced another driver to have to move to avoid a collision. Braking late is fine, as long as you don't force other cars to have to take evasive action to avoid hitting you.

Look at this. Here's Kvyat with two wheels over the inside curb when he draws even with Vettel. The overhead shot confirms this too. At that point, there's enough room if and only if Kvyat holds that line with two wheels over the inside curb. Of course he doesn't hold that line, as evidenced by the second picture. In the last picture, you can see how Kvyat's trajectory took him even further out towards the middle of the track as he hits Raikkonen.

[Merkava]

Overtaking with two wheels on the inside curb is fine. Pushing your opponent wide while still leaving him enough space on the track is also fine. Yeah, the opponent is forced to take a different line, obviously, that's a typical kart move. No matter how you look at it, Vettel was behind on the outside, so the corner belongs to Kvyat.

Kvyat made it through just fine and he still left enough room for another car. Looking at it again, if anyone's at fault then it's 50-50 between Raikkonen and Vettel.

- - - Updated - - -


No he didn't draw even. That implies he was behind and then they went wheel to wheel. No, he was ahead and also on the inside.

Its not a question of who the corner belongs to. Kvyat forced Vettel to make a decision between making contact with Kvyat or with his teamate.

Pushing your opponent wide is fine. I have no problem with that. As long as your opponent has somewhere to go.

Edit and if you overtake someone then youre obviously going to be alongside them at some point.

[Bigbazz]

Kvyat did what he needed to do in order to win in that moment, he saw a gap and he went for it and was successful with no contact. Raikkonens position on the track and the natural curve of the corner ensured that it would cut off Vettel, so it was up to Vettel to slow down but he didn't.. It was a pure racing incident that was not any drivers fault. There is no rule dictating what Kvyat did is wrong, he didn't force anyone off the track nor was he directly responsible for Vettels crash.

[Merkava]

Kvyat did what he needed to do in order to win in that moment, he saw a gap and he went for it and was successful with no contact. Raikkonens position on the track and the natural curve of the corner ensured that it would cut off Vettel, so it was up to Vettel to slow down but he didn't.. It was a pure racing incident that was not any drivers fault. There is no rule dictating what Kvyat did is wrong, he didn't force anyone off the track nor was he directly responsible for Vettels crash.

1. How do you know Vettel didn't slow down? Do you have access to Vettel's telemetry? I would say that he did slow down, judging by the overhead shot of the Force India closing on him from behind when Kvyat drew alongside him.

2. There circuit is wide enough for 3 cars. The only thing that dictated Vettel would be cut off was Kvyat's speed and trajectory.

3.He was only successful because he forced Vettel to move. Only successful because Vettel did move. Kvyat wasn't penalized because there was no contact between him and Vettel. If Vettel hadn't changed lines there would have been contact and there would have been a penalty, just like we've seen before.

4. Saying a driver "did what he needed to do in order to win in that moment" is not exactly a great defense. You could say the same thing about Schumacher's qualifying in Monaco in 2006.

The facts are that Kvyat forced Vettel into a decision between holding his line and crashing with Kvyat or moving and making contact with Raikkonen. Kvyat admitted that in their discussion before the podium. That's in my quote above. That's indisputable. Kvyat's speed and trajectory would have, and did in fact carry him into Raikkonen. Kvyat forced Vettel to move when he had nowhere to go.

[Bigbazz]

1. How do you know Vettel didn't slow down? Do you have access to Vettel's telemetry? I would say that he did slow down, judging by the overhead shot of the Force India closing on him from behind when Kvyat drew alongside him.

2. There circuit is wide enough for 3 cars. The only thing that dictated Vettel would be cut off was Kvyat's speed and trajectory.

3.He was only successful because he forced Vettel to move. Only successful because Vettel did move. Kvyat wasn't penalized because there was no contact between him and Vettel. If Vettel hadn't changed lines there would have been contact and there would have been a penalty, just like we've seen before.

4. Saying a driver "did what he needed to do in order to win in that moment" is not exactly a great defense. You could say the same thing about Schumacher's qualifying in Monaco in 2006.

The facts are that Kvyat forced Vettel into a decision between holding his line and crashing with Kvyat or moving and making contact with Raikkonen. Kvyat admitted that in their discussion before the podium. That's in my quote above. That's indisputable. Kvyat's speed and trajectory would have, and did in fact carry him into Raikkonen. Kvyat forced Vettel to move when he had nowhere to go.

1. If he did slow down then he didn't slow down enough, pretty simple really.

2. The circuit is, but as they approach the apex the lines change and Raikkonen naturally went in for the apex rather than following the outside line. Had he stayed wide there would still be space for 3 cars, but visibility is poor and he had no reason to believe that taking his line would result in collision.

3. He's perfectly entitled to force Vettel to move and there is nothing that says a driver cannot do that, most overtakes force a reaction from the victim driver, he moved into a gap that existed and was ahead of Vettel well before any collision was to occur. He was perfectly entitled to what he did.

4. People love Ayrton Senna, who did a lot more risky and ballsy moves than this.


The fact that the stewards think this was perfectly fine is pretty good evidence that they see it the same way. Honestly this is nothing compared to some of the moves I've seen in the past and in other series.

[Merkava]

1. If he did slow down then he didn't slow down enough, pretty simple really.

2. The circuit is, but as they approach the apex the lines change and Raikkonen naturally went in for the apex rather than following the outside line. Had he stayed wide there would still be space for 3 cars, but visibility is poor and he had no reason to believe that taking his line would result in collision.

3. He's perfectly entitled to force Vettel to move and there is nothing that says a driver cannot do that, most overtakes force a reaction from the victim driver, he moved into a gap that existed and was ahead of Vettel well before any collision was to occur. He was perfectly entitled to what he did.

4. People love Ayrton Senna, who did a lot more risky and ballsy moves than this.


The fact that the stewards think this was perfectly fine is pretty good evidence that they see it the same way. Honestly this is nothing compared to some of the moves I've seen in the past and in other series.

1. If he slowed down any more he would have been hit by the Force India.

2. They were nowhere near the apex for turn 2 and already past the apex for turn 1. Watch the replay if you don't understand. I already said there was space for 3, but not if the third is a charging Kvyat on a trajectory to take out the two cars to his left.

3.

20.5 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

Additionally, he only got ahead of Vettel because Vettel moved.

4. It makes absolutely no difference what people think of the overpraised and reckless Ayrton Senna. You'd probably defend what Senna did in 1990 in Suzuka too.

5. The stewards didn't say it was "perfectly fine." As far as I know, they didn't say anything about it at all. They probably consider it a racing incident. Which is simply a euphemism for both parties being guilty. I disagree to an extent. And since they're not here to participate in the discussion, you're welcome to make their case for them.

[Bigbazz]

You're welcome to disagree, racing incident means no party was at fault and so yes it was perfectly fine, if both parties were considered guilty of "fault" then both drivers would have been penalised in some way, as we have seen countless times in the past. Your 2 pictures posted above supports perfectly my statement about the apex and the point I was making. I'm not going to argue further since it seems you've been arguing your point unsuccessfully with half the thread. Agree to disagree and move on.

[Merkava]

You're welcome to disagree, racing incident means no party was at fault and so yes it was perfectly fine, if both parties were considered guilty of "fault" then both drivers would have been penalised in some way, as we have seen countless times in the past. Your 2 pictures posted above supports perfectly my statement about the apex and the point I was making. I'm not going to argue further since it seems you've been arguing your point unsuccessfully with half the thread. Agree to disagree and move on.

1. Give me some examples of two drivers getting penalized for the same incident.

2. Again, they were nowhere near the apex for turn 2. Not when Kimi turned right after slowing, nor in any of my pictures. Look at a map of the track.

3. My main point is that Kvyat forced Vettel to change lines to avoid contact. Kvyat admits that. In doing so, Vettel made contact with Raikkonen. Both of those are indisputable. Thanks for the discussion.

[Bigbazz]

1. Give me some examples of two drivers getting penalized for the same incident.

2. Again, they were nowhere near the apex for turn 2. Not when Kimi turned right after slowing, nor in any of my pictures. Look at a map of the track.

3. My main point is that Kvyat forced Vettel to change lines to avoid contact. Kvyat admits that. In doing so, Vettel made contact with Raikkonen. Both of those are indisputable. Thanks for the discussion.

1. Do you realise how much time it would take to dig that up? I'm not wasting my time on that.

2. Sorry but disagree, by all means prove your point if you want.

3. I agreed with that in my first post, nothing wrong with it either.. If there was something wrong with it he would have absolutely been penalised but most people agree it was simply a great move that was unfortunate for Vettel.

[Merkava]

1. Do you realise how much time it would take to dig that up? I'm not wasting my time on that.

2. Sorry but disagree, by all means prove your point if you want.

3. I agreed with that in my first post, nothing wrong with it either.. If there was something wrong with it he would have absolutely been penalised but most people agree it was simply a great move that was unfortunate for Vettel.

1. If it happens as often as you say it does, you should be able to think of some off the top of your head. I'm guessing we probably haven't seen it "countless times in the past."

2. Look where the apexes are for turns one and two. First one at :09 next one at :16.


3. I don't know that he would have gotten penalized. I can think of all kinds of incidences where drivers should have been penalized and weren't.

[Bigbazz]

Not entirely sure what relevance that video has, the point of apex is not the subject of discussion but the point at which the driver starts steering towards the apex and thus moving right, though it's also important for you to know the difference between a racing lap apex with many cars on the road and a hotlap solo apex. It's not the same, and I say that as someone with karting experience and with years of competitive simracing under my belt (iRacing, Rfactor, Simraceway, Assetto Corsa).. It's not the same.

Raikkonen locked his brakes and went wide left to avoid the car in front, Vettel also went wide leaving a massive gap where Kvyat took the chance and gunned it down the inside succesfully passing both Ferraris. Due to Raikkonen losing speed from going wide Vettel came alongside him and then Raikkonen turns right as he's setting himself towards the apex, not seeing the other Ferrari alongside him.

This leaves Vettel unable to go either right or left to avoid with a wedge forming, but he has no right to the inside line of the track and has already lost this advantage prior to the incident even beginning, and Raikkonen taking the racing line by veering right towards the Apex instead of staying wide alongside Vettel has caused the accident. No direct contact was made with the Red Bull, Raikkonen kissed the Red Bull while sliding after having ben hit by Vettel.

Therefor it's hard to put any blame, but if anything the blame should be on Raikkonen. Kvyat just made an awesome move.