[Pre-Beta] Havoc Discussion

[Drahkais]

They ought to just turn Prepared into an ability of its own as a mini-Adrenaline Rush for DH and have it replace Vengeful Retreat, if they feel so inclined. Might be a little weird to have the ability still called a Retreat if they were going to remove the retreating portion as a drawback/solution to animation cancelling for the talent. But that's a minor detail. Far more concerned with having the talents both function and not require clever use of game mechanics.

And all the same for Fel Rush. Perhaps if they halved the distance you traveled while using Momentum, you trade off mobility (without sacrificing it completely like you would with animation cancelling) for damage while having it feel a bit less intrusive to your positioning. Hell that would be pretty beneficial for targets with smaller hitboxes as well.

Well, just random thoughts anyway. I'm not so lucky to have hands on with Demon Hunter, what do I know. :V

[Factor]

They ought to just turn Prepared into an ability of its own as a mini-Adrenaline Rush for DH and have it replace Vengeful Retreat, if they feel so inclined. Might be a little weird to have the ability still called a Retreat if they were going to remove the retreating portion as a drawback/solution to animation cancelling for the talent. But that's a minor detail. Far more concerned with having the talents both function and not require clever use of game mechanics.

And all the same for Fel Rush. Perhaps if they halved the distance you traveled while using Momentum, you trade off mobility (without sacrificing it completely like you would with animation cancelling) for damage while having it feel a bit less intrusive to your positioning. Hell that would be pretty beneficial for targets with smaller hitboxes as well.

Well, just random thoughts anyway. I'm not so lucky to have hands on with Demon Hunter, what do I know. :V

Just have Momentum turn Fel Rush turn into a charge if an enemy is targetted. Use it normally if no target is selected

[Drahkais]

Just have Momentum turn Fel Rush turn into a charge if an enemy is targetted. Use it normally if no target is selected

Considered that, but I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I need to use Fel Rush to move away from what I am targeting, and need to manually deselect it so that I do not end up flying right back into it.

[wordup]

Both of you are neglecting the CDR aspect of Prepared though. Whilst it makes it offensively important for the Fury gen, it also makes it more frequently available at the same time which makes the cost of using it for that lower if you plan around it correctly. Ironic given the talents name, you're going to have to prepare around times when you need it for movement and otherwise use it for offense. I think changing it for the sake of change or just the "I don't like it" aspect isn't really reasonable when others do, and it's not the only option on the tier.

[Drahkais]

It's not that I dislike it. I'm just not on the side for animation canceling here. Ironic that a class that's supposed to be about mobility has people trying to circumvent the movement themselves for a positive DPS gain. Either make the talent straight forward, or fix the exploit.

[Factor]

Both of you are neglecting the CDR aspect of Prepared though. Whilst it makes it offensively important for the Fury gen, it also makes it more frequently available at the same time which makes the cost of using it for that lower if you plan around it correctly. Ironic given the talents name, you're going to have to prepare around times when you need it for movement and otherwise use it for offense. I think changing it for the sake of change or just the "I don't like it" aspect isn't really reasonable when others do, and it's not the only option on the tier.

My concern was really more with momentum than prepared. Assuming the animation cancelling is axed, which it should be imo, uptime drops because making it back to position after the vault is sketchy. I just think a more reliable way to return to melee range is a quality of life change that would smooth the gameplay. Either that or change the talent to "The next successful melee autoattack after using Vengeful Retreat/Fel Rush grants Momentum blah blah blah". Just spitballing here.

[wordup]

It's not that I dislike it. I'm just not on the side for animation canceling here. Ironic that a class that's supposed to be about mobility has people trying to circumvent the movement themselves for a positive DPS gain. Either make the talent straight forward, or fix the exploit.

Prepared is still strong without animation cancelling if you use it correctly, as it has such an impact on your reliable Demonic windows (JCing crit abuse aside they aren't anywhere near as reliable if you don't have prepared to sustain a bit of Fury while it's active unless you want to Demon's Bite), Momentum on the other hand is questionable but, again like I said, it's more an issue of alternatives than an issue of its shortcomings.

- - - Updated - - -

My concern was really more with momentum than prepared. Assuming the animation cancelling is axed, which it should be imo, uptime drops because making it back to position after the vault is sketchy. I just think a more reliable way to return to melee range is a quality of life change that would smooth the gameplay. Either that or change the talent to "The next successful melee autoattack after using Vengeful Retreat/Fel rush grant momentum". Just spitballing here.

It's defintiely possible to make it more friendly as you said (i.e. next 3 abilities used after cast gain 20% increase instead) It's just a matter of implementation. The harder fight right now is actually just convincing people that because they don't like momentum it must immediatley be removed en masse which is starting to get echoed around, and if every talent a person didn't like was removed on those grounds then we wouldn't have any talents :P

[Warstar]

My biggest problem with Momentum is Fel Rush. Vengeful Retreat works perfect with it. Off the GCD so as soon as you use the ability you can use another and truly get a 4 second momentum buff even though the damage from VR is not buffed it self (which doesn't matter too much since VR hits for very little anyways.

But, when you get to Fel Rush you run into a number of problems. San-animation canceling which I honestly just hate trying to do. Havoc is a GCD locked class where you can fit every second of your rotation with a damage ability so you're technically always on the GCD. That makes trying to correctly cancel Fel Rush, at least for me, very hard since it really is a very tight timing to get it done correctly. At least for me in actual game play, not just jumping around town where it's much easier, pretty hard since either you waste time while your GCD is just sitting there to make sure you can properly do the animation cancel combo or trying to hit the combo while still on the GCD from my last ability messing it up and shooting 20 yards out.

Using Fel Rush without animation canceling during dungeons, which I believe is the intention of the devs, just feels like complete shit. Mob hit boxes are tiny so any time using Fel Rush generally 2-3 seconds of the buff for me were completely wasted. Fel Rush does not proc momentum on itself so by that alone you lose 1 second of the buff on a non-buffed Fel Rush. Then, you spend 1-2 seconds running back into melee range and at least for me I'd typically only ever get 1 attack in before the buff wore off. At that point pretty sure that that Bloodlet would be a dps increase over momentum.

As for Chaos Blades since apparently it works even on Chaos Strike and causes it to double dip on mastery so I can see it having a place for burst over demonic. Think trying to push Arch p1 1 doomfire type stuff or even in a 3s pvp setting where you don't NEEEEEEED the extra healing from demonic having the extra burst would be nice. If Fel Barrage ever gets implemented and does enough should be the go to for AoE encounters/dungeons. Demonic's problem is that it's just all around good at everything. Buffs BD for AoE, buffs CS for ST and gives strong healing as well.

[Keltas]

A lot of you are saying momentum should change fel rush into a non-movement ability, but why not have the Fel mastery talent do that?

Turns it into Fel burst. Does damage, generates some fury, crits, everything the talent does now except you don't move when you use it.
Hell you could probably take the crit and some of the damage out and make it off gcd too.

Or you could just make momentum remove BOTH their movement components. Maybe add a gcd to the buff like demonic does when you use fel rush.


I just absolutely hate the movement side of momentum, because I know it's going to suck ass on a lot of fights. If either momentum or the abilities respective talents removed their movement capabilities then I'd be fine with it. Or if the other options were competitive enough that I won't have a performance drop by not taking momentum.

[wordup]

I just absolutely hate the movement side of momentum, because I know it's going to suck ass on a lot of fights.

Ultimately, there's nothing else to even discuss other than "don't pick it". Anything else is just extraneous conversation that can ultimately be boiled down to "make Nemesis and Bloodlet better", instead of demanding Momentum be dragged down, which should be the talking point but it's gone a little to far on the anti-Momentum train both here and the Alpha forums (though there's a few posters on the Alpha one that has made it clear it's not the right channel for discussion).

[Vanyali]

I think if TG could gain more targets (and possibly the damage of bloodlet buffed) and nemesis went back to 100% uptime it'd be pretty alright so far as tier-balancing is concerned. 50% for a single target is meh, and useful only if you want to burst.. in which case momentum is far superior because you get 20% to burst with. There's not really a "steady damage all the time" buff with nemesis being reworked to a 50% possible uptime, which is disappointing.

[Warstar]

I think if TG could gain more targets (and possibly the damage of bloodlet buffed) and nemesis went back to 100% uptime it'd be pretty alright so far as tier-balancing is concerned. 50% for a single target is meh, and useful only if you want to burst.. in which case momentum is far superior because you get 20% to burst with. There's not really a "steady damage all the time" buff with nemesis being reworked to a 50% possible uptime, which is disappointing.

They took a bleh talent and made it poopy.

It's like they want momentum to be the best but it's the most annoying talent to work with. Is bloodlet stronger or weaker than nemesis for ST?

[ChakanDH]

They took a bleh talent and made it poopy.

It's like they want momentum to be the best but it's the most annoying talent to work with. Is bloodlet stronger or weaker than nemesis for ST?

Unless they give momentum the pandemic touch, I can't see myself ever using it, unless it's miles ahead of bloodlet. But thats ok, different strokes for different folks, though I do hope they figure out a way of breaking the animation cancelling, having the playstyle balanced around ability cheesing is just flat out dumb.

[Factor]

Ultimately, there's nothing else to even discuss other than "don't pick it". Anything else is just extraneous conversation that can ultimately be boiled down to "make Nemesis and Bloodlet better", instead of demanding Momentum be dragged down, which should be the talking point but it's gone a little to far on the anti-Momentum train both here and the Alpha forums (though there's a few posters on the Alpha one that has made it clear it's not the right channel for discussion).

I like the idea of momentum, I just think its executed in a rather clunky manner. Fel Rush being one of the proccing abilities just feels wrong. Not thematically, just in execution. Dashing 10 yards through and past something then running back, all the while losing the buff, is bad gameplay imo. I wish, instead, Momentum granted two charges of prepared instead of proccing off of Fel Rush and provided a dash back in, or allowed Fel Rush to stop you once you got back in position. Alternately, and I've mentioned it before, is, if momentum is taken, prepared becomes a two part chain ability. One click vaults you out, the next charges you back in. I think momentum fits Demon Hunter to a T and I think it just needs to be tidied up to make it work more smoothly.

[Unkhrahuun the Atoned]

I still think it would be cool if Momentum was literally only about the vaulting out and dashing back. Like, the only purpose for it would be to increase Fel Rush damage. I'm talking like, have Vengeful Retreat increase the damage of your next Fel Rush by x% or something. That way you don't have to try and fit other abilities into a short window: Demonic seems to fill that role plenty well on it's own really.

[Baelroc]

Honestly, I think alot of the woes of Momentum could be greatly alleviated if Fel Rush wasn't such a clunky ability. I would love to see it either,

A) Get the Flying Serpent Kick treatment (press it again to stop it)

B) Get a glyph that allows it to stop when you hit a target.

C) As someone suggested above, make it a charge if you are targeting something, otherwise keep its current implementation.

Momentum can't really be nerfed anymore and be viable simply because of the added difficulty it has to play with it, needs to be worth it. I love the idea of Momentum, it just needs to not feel so bad to use, which is why I think a few changes to Fel Rush could make it alot more manageable.

[Dimzum]

I still think it would be cool if Momentum was literally only about the vaulting out and dashing back. Like, the only purpose for it would be to increase Fel Rush damage. I'm talking like, have Vengeful Retreat increase the damage of your next Fel Rush by x% or something. That way you don't have to try and fit other abilities into a short window: Demonic seems to fill that role plenty well on it's own really.

I also hate the idea of using defensive abilities for offensive purposes. If they kept the function but tied it to Fel Rush only and maybe increased the buff duration I'd be happy with that. Good for an opener and good for movement heavy fights. Keeps VR open for your "oh shit bad stuff on the ground" CD.

[neck deep]

i've always said that i hate momentum, from the start, and will reluctantly play it if it's mathematically the best regardless of personal feelings about it, but i certainly hope that it's the less attractive option for most fights. having to animation cancel things with the ping i raid with will be a miserable experience

[Sangomah]

Animation cancelling gone? Was not able to cancel it all night during the test!

It worked in Dalaran <.<

[Vanyali]

Animation cancelling gone? Was not able to cancel it all night during the test!

It worked in Dalaran <.<

Worked 100% fine for me. Just touchy, as usual.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&fight=9

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yRjfB7KP1vz2YaNb


Two logs, because loldemo.



no video from me, geforce decided to be a dick and i didn't realize until testing started