Shadow Priest flavor: "Domain of the Old Gods" Why not just Void Lords or the Void?

[Wyrt]

What says you can't?

Most definitions of the word.

[shoc]

That's a nice headcanon you got there, but can you stop insisting it's the truth?

There's nothing to suggest that Shadow Priests aren't in control.

Well, it's kind of hard to suggest that a Shadow Priest in full 'Insanity' form is in complete control of their thoughts and actions.

I'd liken it to Insight from Bloodborne and the rest of the Cthulhu mythos. Basically, it's impossible to fully understand the nature of the Void Lords / Eldritch ancient Gods, without losing your mind. The more you now, the further you descend into madness. Looking at their physical forms would probably make you explode, or at least leave you mentally retarded.

[KrakHed]

Most definitions of the word.

"in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction"

Nothing about not being in control there. Sure, maybe you won't be capable of normal perception, behavior, or social interaction when you have a tentacle growing out of your ass, but it doesn't mean you're praying to C'thulhu for the end of the world or are a mere whim away from eating your friends.

Well, it's kind of hard to suggest that a Shadow Priest in full 'Insanity' form is in complete control of their thoughts and actions.

Why not?

I'm not arguing that they aren't in a significantly altered mental state, but ultimately the Shadow Priest is still directing their own actions.

Demon Hunters literally have Demons inside of them who constantly tell them to go eat people and join the Legion, even going so far as to murder people while sleepwalking, and people are singling out Shadow Priests as Old God worshipers because they regularly get very weird in combat.

[Wyrt]

"in a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction"

Nothing about not being in control there. Sure, maybe you won't be capable of normal perception, behavior, or social interaction when you have a tentacle growing out of your ass, but it doesn't mean you're praying to C'thulhu for the end of the world or are a mere whim away from eating your friends.

lol

It's right there in the definition. If it prevents you from having normal perception, behavior, or social interaction then you are not in control. Underlined for emphasis.

Demon Hunters literally have Demons inside of them who constantly tell them to go eat people and join the Legion, even going so far as to murder people while sleepwalking, and people are singling out Shadow Priests as Old God worshipers because they regularly get very weird in combat.

Demon hunters that are driven insane aren't on our side though, but insane shadow priests are.

[KrakHed]

lol

It's right there in the definition. If it prevents you from having normal perception, behavior, or social interaction then you are not in control. Underlined for emphasis.

Yes. They're prevented in some way from behaving normally, but this doesn't mean they aren't in control. Void Form can be dismissed when the Shadow Priest wills it, and Shadow Priests use it for their own purposes.

Even Warlocks have spells which prevent them from talking normally. This doesn't make them out of control Demon-worshipers.

If a mental state you entered willingly and can dismiss at any time prevents you from operating normally, that doesn't mean you aren't in control.

Demon hunters that are driven insane aren't on our side though, but insane shadow priests are.

The successful Demon Hunters are still guys who sewed their mouths shut, giggle in weird ways, have a constant voice in their head, experience extreme mood swings of violent rage and suicidal depression, want to eat one another, and do all other kinds of disgusting shit. They're fucking insane, but they still retain hold over their initial purpose of taking vengeance on demons.

In short, they're insane but in control.

[JTHMRulez1]

Shadow Priest are equally insane as a Demon Hunter or a Death Knight.

Also. Look how many Demon Hunters are gone rogue in Legion. Yet i'm not seeing threads about how "Demon Hunters are a danger and makes no sense" meanwhile few Shadow Priest have gone rogue and yet people are like "Those guys are gonna stab us any moment!"

[Wyrt]

Yes. They're prevented in some way from behaving normally, but this doesn't mean they aren't in control. Void Form can be dismissed when the Shadow Priest wills it, and Shadow Priests use it for their own purposes.

Even Warlocks have spells which prevent them from talking normally. This doesn't make them out of control Demon-worshipers.

If a mental state you entered willingly and can dismiss at any time prevents you from operating normally, that doesn't mean you aren't in control.

But they don't control it. They go deeper into insanity the more they cast.

Shadow Priest are equally insane as a Demon Hunter or a Death Knight.

Also. Look how many Demon Hunters are gone rogue in Legion. Yet i'm not seeing threads about how "Demon Hunters are a danger and makes no sense" meanwhile few Shadow Priest have gone rogue and yet people are like "Those guys are gonna stab us any moment!"

The Twilight Cultists have been major enemies since vanilla.

[KrakHed]

Shadow Priest are equally insane as a Demon Hunter or a Death Knight.

Also. Look how many Demon Hunters are gone rogue in Legion. Yet i'm not seeing threads about how "Demon Hunters are a danger and makes no sense" meanwhile few Shadow Priest have gone rogue and yet people are like "Those guys are gonna stab us any moment!"

They might be less insane, because we haven't seen any Shadow Priests having to struggle with their inner darkness.

But they don't control it. They go deeper into insanity the more they cast.

The Twilight Cultists have been major enemies since vanilla.

Many of the Twilight Cultists were also former Light Worshipers, and weren't originally trained to be Shadow Priests beforehand. We haven't actually had many characters who were originally Shadow Priests jump ship to join the Old Gods.

And sure, we go deeper into insanity as we cast, but nothing says we aren't in control of our casting or what the exact nature of the insanity is.

We already know Death Knights are all conditioned to be sadists, who undergo withdrawal if they don't inflict pain, and Demon Hunters have cannibalistic urges, violent tendencies, suicidal depression, and all sorts of other fun stuff.

What exactly is the form of a Shadow Priest's insanity, and what makes it worse than what everyone else has?

[Wyrt]

Many of the Twilight Cultists were also former Light Worshipers, and weren't originally trained to be Shadow Priests beforehand. We haven't actually had many characters who were originally Shadow Priests jump ship to join the Old Gods.

And sure, we go deeper into insanity as we cast, but nothing says we aren't in control of our casting or what the exact nature of the insanity is.

We already know Death Knights are all conditioned to be sadists, who undergo withdrawal if they don't inflict pain, and Demon Hunters have cannibalistic urges, violent tendencies, suicidal depression, and all sorts of other fun stuff.

What exactly is the form of a Shadow Priest's insanity, and what makes it worse than what everyone else has?

They don't control the insanity, they just go deeper in the more they cast. They have no control.

[Wondercrab]

I'm hoping the whole void lords thing is left purely as a bit of background flavour from the books and isn't touched upon in the actual game. Blizzard storytelling already suffers from enough of the "bad guy behind the bad guy" escalation nonsense as it is, and the whole concept of what makes elder gods cool gets undone when you start explaining them.

[kabshiel]

They literally submit to the madness of the old gods. Saying they don't worship them is just playing with semantics.

Shadow Priests just tap into the same energy source as the Old Gods. A motorcycle might use gasoline, but that doesn't make it a car.

[KrakHed]

They don't control the insanity, they just go deeper in the more they cast. They have no control.

Sure they do. They could stop casting and they're clearly doing everything willingly. Nothing forces them to change target, and they don't have a known problem with traitors like the Church of the Holy Light does.

Nothing suggests they get uncontrollable impulses to kill their friends, themselves, or anyone.

What exactly is outside of their control? Their ability to behave normally while in an altered state they enter deliberately? Is any of this actually a danger to anyone around them? If the only uncontrollable aspects of their insanity aren't anything that actually anyone any trouble, then you're just bitching over trivialities.

Sure, maybe the guy has started to perceive lights as smells, thinks talking like a squid is perfectly natural, and is acting a bit too excited, all enough to classify them as insane, but if they remember who their real enemies are and soon come back to normal afterward then there's no problem. The whole thing was managed in a controlled fashion.

- - - Updated - - -

OH WAIT!

Let's add Warriors to the list of those shady bastards you just can't trust, because they aren't in control of themselves. See, the more Warriors fight, the more they gain a resource called "Rage". Let's look up what that means!

"violent, uncontrollable anger."

Well, we can't trust those fucking Warriors. Last time the Horde had one as a Faction Leader, he turned into a genocidal maniac. This all fits.

Warriors can't control themselves. It's right there in the name of their resource. They can't stop themselves from gaining Rage when they fight, so they have no control over it. Hell, Rage by definition explicitly cannot be controlled. Orcs in the lore also have a Blood Rage, even back before they were corrupted, so we can't trust them either.

We especially can't trust Orcish Warriors. They're doubly out of control!

Adding to that, Shaman cast Bloodlust on all of their allies, and that's defined as an "uncontrollable desire to kill or maim others."

Wow, can't trust those bastards either. They're out of control!

Even Druids have Berserk as an ability, and Trolls have Berserking. The definition for that is "(of a person or animal) out of control with anger or excitement; wild or frenzied."

Yet "insanity" says nothing about being out of control. Looks to me like Shadow Priests are a good deal safer than Orcish Warriors. Hell, we've had a far more dramatic example of one of those falling to evil or corruption than any Shadow Priest.

[AbalDarkwind]

I'm hoping the whole void lords thing is left purely as a bit of background flavour from the books and isn't touched upon in the actual game. Blizzard storytelling already suffers from enough of the "bad guy behind the bad guy" escalation nonsense as it is, and the whole concept of what makes elder gods cool gets undone when you start explaining them.

The Outer Gods have existed for just as long as the Great Old Ones in Lovecraft's mythos. Yet, no one thinks that just because Azathoth exists, Cthulhu must be a chump. The Void Lord's are Warcraft's Outer Gods and the Old Gods are Warcraft's Great Old Ones, and the same logic applies.

[Deleted]

The same way that the humans worshiped angelical being without knowing they were Naaru.

[Golden Yak]

I've also thought that the look of the Old Gods, they're gooey organic chaos, is very distinct from the shadowy, intangible darkness of the Void. I think it can be resolved thusly:

The Void Lords projected their power into the physical universe to create the Old Gods since the Void Lords themselves cannot exist in the material universe for long. The Old Gods are born of the Void but adapted for permanent existence in the material plane, and the material plane is made up of both Light and Void at its foundation. So while most other matter in the universe has both Light and Void as an underlying foundation of their existence, the Old Gods have only Void, with no Light. Rather than being pure Void beings, they are material beings made of Void, just as mortals are material beings made of both Light and Void.

Therefore, material beings that call on the power of the Void find it easier to deal in something that's partway between the material universe and pure Void. So they use the powers of the Old Gods. Less risky than winding up as total lunatics like Cho'Gall who deal in the pure Void.

[Deleted]

Why don't we kill Shadowpriests again, instead of giving them the chance to let them lead the Priests of the Light, the Naaru, the Sun or Elune?

[KrakHed]

So while most other matter in the universe has both Light and Void as an underlying foundation of their existence, the Old Gods have only Void, with no Light.

I sincerely doubt they have no Light at all. The problem the Void Lords have is a matter of purity. Even Voidwalkers presumably have some Light in their composition. Just as Naaru are merely the purest beings of Light who can exist in our reality, suggesting that there are purer beings who cannot.

The Old Gods are definitely more Void than Light, but it's impossible for them to be entirely pure and maintain a stable presence.

In my opinion, they're more like the opposite of most forms of life which are said to have originated from shards of Light, which is why it's said "they do not live". Their state of existence is closer to the reverse of traditional life, like a form of "Anti-Life" if you will.

Why don't we kill Shadowpriests again, instead of giving them the chance to let them lead the Priests of the Light, the Naaru, the Sun or Elune?

Because we've seen a lot more Holy Priests go mad or turn traitor than trained Shadow Priests? Sure, some of those corrupted Priests may have become Shadow Priests well after they were corrupted, but we haven't seen too many corrupted Priests who were Shadow-wielders in the first place.

[Deleted]

Because we've seen a lot more Holy Priests go mad or turn traitor than trained Shadow Priests? Sure, some of those corrupted Priests may have become Shadow Priests well after they were corrupted, but we haven't seen too many corrupted Priests who were Shadow-wielders in the first place.

Yeah, but in the end, all the evil Priests were Shadow Priests.

[KrakHed]

Yeah, but in the end, all the evil Priests were Shadow Priests.

I don't know, Benedictus seemed to be using the Light just fine and only switched spec in that final fight. Whatever the case, it's clear that Holy Priests have no special resistance to corruption, even if they sometimes become Shadow Priests well after the fact. The Church of the Holy Light became a Twilight recruitment ground despite their teachings shunning the use of Void magics.

Hell, it's possible that by refusing to properly understand Void magics, they were actually more vulnerable to its corruption. A properly trained Shadow Priest probably has to learn to manage the dark forces they wield in a way that doesn't do permanent damage to themselves.

[MechaCThun]

OK,

After reading many if not all of the replies I suppose I will elaborate more where my head is at about the original post:

( 1. ) I simply find it curiously frustrating that, with Blizzard knowing ahead of time that the Old Gods would not be the original source of evil and they are simply extensions of a force greater than themselves, they would base an entire spec's theme off of them.
( a. ) However, I am not complaining. I personally love the Lovecraftian-esque theme of the OGs but I realize the distinct difference between OGs and the Void/Void Lords. I does not make sense to NOT base the theme of spec around purely the Void/Void Lords being that they ARE the true source of that power.

( 2. ) I have made the argument in the past that the OGs are the "avatars" of the VLs just as the Titans have their avatars. Although in the chronicle it says the VLs just shot their collective power/essence/energy into space and hoped for the best, I am not so willing to believe Blizzard regulated a force of evil so well engrained in their game to lap dog status.
( a. ) This means that the VLs are infact C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, N'Zoth, and Y'Shaarj themselves. Only 4 VLs dominating the Void. I suppose this would make more sense to base the Shadow spec off the OGs, although we do not know for sure. So my frustration continues.

( 3. ) Gameplay wise, adding OG elements to the Shadow spec brings more aesthetic pleasure to me personally. Artisically it is a move in the right direction to really show where EXACTLY Shadow Priests are utilizing their power from.
( a. ) Since my original post I went back and watched spell changes and cosmetic changes to Shadow Priests in Legion. I took notes on what came off as more Old God-like and more Void/Void Lord-like and honestly it was kind of a perfect blend to me. While the OGs and VLs have distinct differences, I think Blizzard is trying to blend the two?

( 4. ) So if Shadow Priests have to "go thru" the Old Gods to weild shadow/void magic - and that is Blizzard's intention for explanation, not wanting the biggest force of evil threatening our existence to be directly influencing just 1 class/spec - then I suppose that makes sense.
( a. ) However, with the same argument with warlocks. Would that mean that demons are merely the conduit in which Warlocks draw their power? How does that explain Affliction or even Destruction warlocks? Genuine question, not trying to misdirect.