3 tiers in 3 years

[FelPlague]

"More or less" isn't solid enough to count it properly, because it's too subjective.

Imo, we should count it by full raid tiers:

Vanilla: MC + BWL + AQ40 + Naxx = 4
BC: Gruul/Maggi + SSC/TK + Hyjal/BT + SWP = 4
WotLK: Naxx + Ulduar + ToC + ICC = 4
Cata: BoT/TotFW/BWD + FL + DS = 3
MoP: MV/HoF/ToES + ToT + SoO = 3
WoD: HM + BRF + HFC = 3

Or by number of encounters in xpac:

Vanilla: MC 10 + Ony 1 + BWL 8 + AQ40 9 + Naxx 16 = 44
BC: Gruul 2 + Maggi 1 + SSC 6 + TK 4 + Hyjal 5 + BT 9 + SWP 6 = 33
WotLK: Naxx 16 + EoE 1 + OS 1 + Ulduar 14 + ToC 5 + ICC 12 + Ony 1 + RS 1 = 51
Cata: BoT 5 + TotFW 2 + BWD 6 + FL 7 + DS 7 = 27
MoP: MV 6 + HoF 6 + ToES 4 + ToT 13 + SoO 14 = 43
WoD: HM 7 + BRF 10 + HFC 13 = 30

So in terms of quantity of raid content WoD is either the same as the last two addons, or stands at the same amount of encounters as Cata and BC. But I doubt many people will call BC a disaster.

WoW decline is a complex thing. You can't just say that's because of lack of raids, or because of garrisons or whatever else. It's complex. Period.

yes but you also have to remember, how many mechanics are in the old fights, compared to the new :P but yeah, it is complex, each person has their reason, there isent "1 subjective reason" and thats what alot of people try to pinpoint, TONS of people blame the garrison, but really the garrison is only to blame cause people spend all day in there cause once youve done everything, that is all you can do

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I am not sure what you mean by filling up the front page. If you are referring to the Recent Forum Posts on the home page then this is a result of the thread's popularity, which you are adding to, if you are talking about the WoW General Discussion Page then I can only assume that you are exaggerating as there are not many threads like this.

I would also add that people are talking about this because Blizzard has failed to release as much content as previous expansions. Rather than trying to discredit those who point this out it would it not be better to simply ignore them if you disagree or failing that vent your frustration at Blizzard for causing the issue?

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these enough support of people posting threads shitting blizz about things we allready know (yes the thread itself may not start as it like the "old animations removed" but quickly turned into "f blizzard they are ruining this game there is so little to do"

[Celarent]

Is this what they meant by yearly expansions?

[OneSent]

Funny how we've received less and less raid content with each new expansion.

It's a perfect, steady decline from the first expansion up to the most recent...

Pathetic.

[FelPlague]

Funny how we've received less and less raid content with each new expansion.

It's a perfect, steady decline from the first expansion up to the most recent...

Pathetic.

except raids have become longer, and much higher quality fights

[Deleted]

"More or less" isn't solid enough to count it properly, because it's too subjective.

Imo, we should count it by full raid tiers:

Vanilla: MC + BWL + AQ40 + Naxx = 4
BC: Gruul/Maggi + SSC/TK + Hyjal/BT + SWP = 4
WotLK: Naxx + Ulduar + ToC + ICC = 4
Cata: BoT/TotFW/BWD + FL + DS = 3
MoP: MV/HoF/ToES + ToT + SoO = 3
WoD: HM + BRF + HFC = 3

Or by number of encounters in xpac:

Vanilla: MC 10 + Ony 1 + BWL 8 + AQ40 9 + Naxx 16 = 44
BC: Gruul 2 + Maggi 1 + SSC 6 + TK 4 + Hyjal 5 + BT 9 + SWP 6 = 33
WotLK: Naxx 16 + EoE 1 + OS 1 + Ulduar 14 + ToC 5 + ICC 12 + Ony 1 + RS 1 = 51
Cata: BoT 5 + TotFW 2 + BWD 6 + FL 7 + DS 7 = 27
MoP: MV 6 + HoF 6 + ToES 4 + ToT 13 + SoO 14 = 43
WoD: HM 7 + BRF 10 + HFC 13 = 30

So in terms of quantity of raid content WoD is either the same as the last two addons, or stands at the same amount of encounters as Cata and BC. But I doubt many people will call BC a disaster.

WoW decline is a complex thing. You can't just say that's because of lack of raids, or because of garrisons or whatever else. It's complex. Period.

THANK YOU. This makes so much more sense.
I am not defending the content draught of WoD but I for one am actually grateful that tiers are spaced out more, it's possible to progress with 2 raid days a week not 3 or 4, and not everything feels like a race before content gets obsolete.

The encounter count is what matters imho. I don't need 5 raids with 4 bosses- I don't mind having half of them but with more bosses. I quite like the 12-14 boss range. I'm hoping for two more raids on top of the launch ones for legion. One mid-tier and then the final one. Perfectly fine.

[Justpassing]

Woah, I'm glad they have their biggest team ever. Imagine how it would be without?

[Sury]

Buying a different mount other than your race mount was huge back then. Think it gave a discount on flight paths too.

I addressed this in a later post. I will add it to this one as well.

Which was all the rage back then. One of the only reasons to grind a reputation to exalted. On a practical level though until they added the turn in feature with cloth during the AQ world event it was very rare to see anyone exalted with other city reps riding around on a 1,000 gold (per) epic mount. Just having an epic mount alone was rare for a lot of people. Sure you could buy the slow version for show but not a lot of practical application is being served.

The only real reason to grind any reputation in Vanilla was to buy profession patterns most of which were largely never used by the general population. A few stand outs like enchanting patterns or resistance patterns were used by cutting edge raiders but we are talking about the staunch minority at this point.

My point remains. Today's reputation vendors provide much more rewarding items for the majority for the players. Vanilla's reputation vendors on the other hand had much less to offer.

Now on to your concerns about work vs reward.

WoD had huge rep grinds for what? A tabard and a slight recolour of a mount. Oh and a trinket with ilvl 615. Not worth it at all.

Huge rep grinds? Compared to Vanilla the grind in Warlords was laughable. I grinded every Vanilla reputation to there max so this is not my opinion this is from my own personal experience. You can never leave your garrison and max out Warlord reps simply by doing follower missions. That I have also experience first hand.

In my quote above I also address how little reward was gained from maxing reputation in Vanilla. Warlords offered far more rewards when it comes to cosmetics. They offered rewards which increased player power like the trinket you listed and Empowered Augment Rune which stacks with flasks. They offered blueprints for followers, ships, ship equipment, and oil rig. All universally useful with real applicable use for the majority of the player base.

Plus you could argue that Blizz had over 10 years to learn how to make a proper reward for reputation vendors. Unlike vanilla.

Which is your opinion. If you do not like what the vendors have to offer that is fine. Claiming Blizzard has not learned how to make a proper rewards simply because you do not like what those rewards are is not an argument it is an opinion. An opinion that is not universally held.

Reputations were a massive joke in WoD and you know it.

In the regard of how easy it is to grind compared to Vanilla then yes Warlord's reputation is a joke. It is a joke to stand in your garrison or at the AH and pop a few tokens and gain thousands of reputation. I know from experience and not conjecture that grinding most of the reputations in Vanilla took a lot more time and effort while offering sometimes no reward at all (other than a 999/1000 green bar).

[Aschen]

"More or less" isn't solid enough to count it properly, because it's too subjective.

Imo, we should count it by full raid tiers:

Vanilla: MC + BWL + AQ40 + Naxx = 4
BC: Gruul/Maggi + SSC/TK + Hyjal/BT + SWP = 4
WotLK: Naxx + Ulduar + ToC + ICC = 4
Cata: BoT/TotFW/BWD + FL + DS = 3
MoP: MV/HoF/ToES + ToT + SoO = 3
WoD: HM + BRF + HFC = 3

Or by number of encounters in xpac:

Vanilla: MC 10 + Ony 1 + BWL 8 + AQ40 9 + Naxx 16 = 44
BC: Gruul 2 + Maggi 1 + SSC 6 + TK 4 + Hyjal 5 + BT 9 + SWP 6 = 33
WotLK: Naxx 16 + EoE 1 + OS 1 + Ulduar 14 + ToC 5 + ICC 12 + Ony 1 + RS 1 = 51
Cata: BoT 5 + TotFW 2 + BWD 6 + FL 7 + DS 7 = 27
MoP: MV 6 + HoF 6 + ToES 4 + ToT 13 + SoO 14 = 43
WoD: HM 7 + BRF 10 + HFC 13 = 30

So in terms of quantity of raid content WoD is either the same as the last two addons, or stands at the same amount of encounters as Cata and BC. But I doubt many people will call BC a disaster.

WoW decline is a complex thing. You can't just say that's because of lack of raids, or because of garrisons or whatever else. It's complex. Period.

You left out Zul'Gurub (10 boss encounters) and AQ20 (6 boss encounters) for Vanilla encounters. The real total is 60.
You also left out Karazhan (12 boss encounters) and Zul'Aman (6 boss encounters) for BC encounters. The real total is 51

[McFrotton]

Raiding needs to die so world content can live.

this. Raiding is a thing of the past I think

[Onikaroshi]

Hmm, i never noticed cata had so few bosses, 3 tiers, less bosses than wod... no wonder cata seemed so boring lol

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this. Raiding is a thing of the past I think

that would suck, i'd have to find another decent game with raiding cause it's mine and all of my friends from the game and my gfs favorite things to do, think it would harm just as much as help to remove it

[Niwes]

i assume the next step in "milking" is just 1 blue bar, 4 years long

[Niwes]

this. Raiding is a thing of the past I think

then you are so totally in the wrong game... lol.

1) you were totaaly wrong in this game with this statement in vanilla.
2) you were totally wrong in this game with this statement in BC
3) you were... i think you got it
4) you ARE totaaly wrong in this game by the single fact that there are literally millions of mmorpgs out there, doin non-raud stuff better tahn wow

[Cebel]

Yeah.... the current developers just dont seem to care or have the desire for the game to be great again.

Apparently all the creative genius that created wow-wotlk has truly moved on. I always hoped that even with them leaving that some of their ideals and shit would rub off on those devs left behind. Clearly it didnt.

RIP.

[Saiona]

then you are so totally in the wrong game... lol.

1) you were totaaly wrong in this game with this statement in vanilla.
2) you were totally wrong in this game with this statement in BC
3) you were... i think you got it
4) you ARE totaaly wrong in this game by the single fact that there are literally millions of mmorpgs out there, doin non-raud stuff better tahn wow

WoWs good raids is one of the only reasons I still play this game religiously

[robsonic]

Hey I guess it's better than 3 in 4 years?

[Deleted]

From what Blizzard (I think it was Ghostcrawler) have said people were not raiding Ulduar in large numbers and that is why they released ToC.

They would ramp up. Most of them were still doing Naxx en-masse. It wasn't a great raid - mainly the aesthetics that were disgusting in every wing - so it definitely wasn't a better raid than Ulduar, the most complete raid ever designed.

[rda]

i assume the next step in "milking" is just 1 blue bar, 4 years long

No, no, no.

The next step is this: reduce expansions to the initial patch plus bugfix patches, then bulk big patches a bit, name them "expansions" and charge for them. That is, sell 8.0 as an expansion, then take what would have previously been named 8.2 and 8.4 and sell it as 9.0 (another $50-$60) and 10.0 (same).

Bam, they have their one-year expansion delivery cycle, they get (way) more money for same effort, and the money are paid upfront so subs matter less and Ion Hazzikostas can keep using the word "cyclical" and saying that it's fine to unsub, it's win-win-win-win.

[Deleted]

You think you want more tiers, but you don't.

hahaha gold

[Wingerie]

You left out Zul'Gurub (10 boss encounters) and AQ20 (6 boss encounters) for Vanilla encounters. The real total is 60.
You also left out Karazhan (12 boss encounters) and Zul'Aman (6 boss encounters) for BC encounters. The real total is 51

All of these aren't full scale raids, belonging to raid tiers.

[Deleted]

I think its even worse if you look at the exact total raids.

-Vanilla had: 7 raids.
-The Burning Crusade had: 9 raids.
-Wrath of the Lich King had. 8 Raids
-Cataclysm had: 6 Raids
-Mists of Pandaria had: 5 Raids

Warlords of Draenor Raids only got 3 Raids…

In Legion we will have to do with 2 Raids, and they already got announced: Emerald Nightmare & Suramar Palace!

Let's just break this open to make it an honest comparison and look at the big tier raids:

Vanilla
Molten Core: 10 bosses
Blackwing Lair: 8 bosses
AQ40 (although not a full fledged tier, but a big enough raid to warrant inclusion): 9 bosses
Naxxramas: 15 bosses

Onyxia is 1 boss, 20 man raids were diversions (as fun as ZG was, it was not a full raid tier).

Burning Crusade
I could make the same distinction between 10 and 25 like I did for Vanilla between 40 & 20, but I'm going to include Karazhan anyway because of how great it was. Zul'Aman is a secondary raid and not viewed as a tier in my opinion. Same goes for Magtheridon. He's like the world bosses of MoP/WoD, only confined to their own instance and never really particularly challenging or engaging.

-Gruul's Lair: 3
-Battle for Mount Hyjal: 5
-Karazhan: 11
-Black Temple: 9
-Serpentshrine Cavern: 6
-Tempest Keep: 4
-Sunwell: 6

Wrath
-Naxxramas: 15
-The Eye of Eternity: 1
-Vault of Archavon (though this has always been a filler raid): 4
-Obsidian Sanctum (same, filler): 1
-Ulduar: 13
-ToC: 5
-ICC: 12
-Ruby Sanctum (filler): 1

Cata
-Baradin Hold (filler): 3
-Bastion of Twilight: 5
-Throne of the Four Winds: 2
-Blackwing Descent: 6
-Firelands: 7
-Dragon Soul: 7

MoP
-MSV: 6
-HoF: 6
-ToES: 4
-ToT: 13
-SoO: 14

WoD
-Highmaul: 7
-Blackrock Foundry: 10
-HFC: 13

Do remember that as of Cataclysm the Heroic/Mythic tier was introduced to provide an additional level of challenge. An interesting debate is whether the pre-Cataclysm raids their difficulty was tuned at what is currently considered to be Mythic level or somewhere in between current Heroic and current Mythic.