[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

insane? maybe; im just tearing down what i take for granted, going to the drawing board and throwing ideas around. Do you think its a good idea to constrict our peak dps into an alignment of celestial bodies ala avenging wrath, bloodlust, execution sentence and judgement debuff being up?

I mean, if you were tasked to take the concept of divine storm: a cluster!@^! tempest of holy energy, swirling hammers and lightning bolts into a CD....what would you it do? where would it fit into the rotation

Yes, i do think it is an extremely good thing. Unless you also propose the removal of heroism and pots.

How strong divine storm should be is in no way linked to AW. It is an invaluable tool, leave it be.

EDS proc worked wonders for me.

[Hofflerand]

I hate that our mastery is a ST stat and the design of Greater Judgment is a travesty. As Judgment is the only really interesting part of our rotation in Legion, why are we able to ignore managing it so much of the time?

I'm gonna voice an unpopular opinion: I'm more or less fine with Equality now that it's a 3 min cooldown. I don't agree with the hate train. Yes it will be very situational in raids, but not every single talent has to be designed around one aspect of the game. Even if y'all focus on that aspect to the exclusion of everything else. I think Equality has an interesting design. I think it'll be cool in a mythic+ dungeon to taunt a mob off the tank when he's getting low and then use abilities like Shield of Vengeance, Eye for an Eye, and Equality (not that all of these require taunt to be useful. I'm just very happy to have it back). And if we drop too low, our bubbles are a lot less restrictive than they once were.

So many people shit on the idea of class fantasy but it's important to me and in some aspects I think the devs are doing a great job making Ret feel like a very angry, spiteful paladin. No, this is not me writing the devs a blank check - I just think sometimes people bandwagon the wrong causes.

[Ashelorh]

So many people shit on the idea of class fantasy but it's important to me and in some aspects I think the devs are doing a great job making Ret feel like a very angry, spiteful paladin. No, this is not me writing the devs a blank check - I just think sometimes people bandwagon the wrong causes.

Got that one right. I really dislike these changes.

[Celebhil]

sure. having a burst tool is a good thing, but avenging wrath has existed for so long that its been consistently an issue (and the justification) that the only meaningful dps we do is while its up, otherwise our base dmg is kinda crap.

eds proc was ok, but between that, divine purpose and art of war, i'd rather have less randomness and "feast or famine" dps. Art of war proccing, exorcism...our weakest spell for ages...wasnt very meaningful or sensical (a ranged spell that required you to be in melee to get to proc). Or not getting eds to proc when I really needed the aoe dmg and took noticeably longer to kill a pack.

With us losing our hand of light mastery and everything being redesigned to the point where our rotation is no longer prioritycd based, having an avenging wrath to boost our noodle strikes doesnt seem all that helpful anymore.

Crying "no dont change it, its good" isnt helpful anymore nemmar.
so....lets try the question again....what sort of aoe attack and CD would compliment the new judgement/mastery design?

For example.....an art of war proc that reset blade of justice and/or shortens the wait time on judgement's cd. its talents aside, the new spell hits hard considering and getting 2 hp is a big deal

however....with the artifact and holy wrath we already have good options on holy power generation, so this would have to be a final tier talent or a holy wrath competitor.

as for divine storm I had thought making into some sort of 1min/5HP cd would be interesting if it also interacted with your single target rotation: massive aoe strike, then lingering bursts in the area around you for x seconds, but if you continue to consume holy power, it extends the duration up to a cap.

[Snegovik]

I hate that our mastery is a ST stat and the design of Greater Judgment is a travesty. As Judgment is the only really interesting part of our rotation in Legion, why are we able to ignore managing it so much of the time?

I'm gonna voice an unpopular opinion: I'm more or less fine with Equality now that it's a 3 min cooldown. I don't agree with the hate train. Yes it will be very situational in raids, but not every single talent has to be designed around one aspect of the game. Even if y'all focus on that aspect to the exclusion of everything else. I think Equality has an interesting design. I think it'll be cool in a mythic+ dungeon to taunt a mob off the tank when he's getting low and then use abilities like Shield of Vengeance, Eye for an Eye, and Equality (not that all of these require taunt to be useful. I'm just very happy to have it back). And if we drop too low, our bubbles are a lot less restrictive than they once were.

So many people shit on the idea of class fantasy but it's important to me and in some aspects I think the devs are doing a great job making Ret feel like a very angry, spiteful paladin. No, this is not me writing the devs a blank check - I just think sometimes people bandwagon the wrong causes.

out of those 3 abilities/spells only 1 is useful in rated PvP (SV), maybe pve wise it is ok (i wouldnt know, i dont pve) but from PvP POV those eye4eye and Equality are useless )))

[Hofflerand]

How is E4E useless in PvP, Sneg? Just imagine (for example) fighting a melee cleave and having a 35% damage reduction every minute. And on top of that it's basically Retaliation! Warriors are sure to be super jealous. As for Equality, I suppose its usefulness in PvP depends on just how much its damage gets reduced there.

[Snegovik]

Hi @Hofflerand
Well it would be actually very nice if it reduced all dmg by 35% not just physical, historically the hardest comps for Ret to counter caster based (RMD, Frozen Chicken, Desto/Elem/Hpal (back from Wrath, UA/Elem/healer), only very few comps % wise are pure melee clvs like TSG (DK/war/hap), walking Dead, Kitty clv but all those comps usually just train healer, hence you need offheals like WOG to keep your healer alive while bursting down the enemy. Also most of melee have non-physical attacks Rogues (poisons), enhance (lava lash), dks (frost strikes, howling blasts), Ret (FV, ES, DS, etc), i think only wars/ferals have pure melee attacks (not counting moonfire) also maybe WW. I much rather spec into JV and try kill some1 in a stun or go WOG and help out my healer. I was watching Savix's streams on Legion Alpha, he also stated that E4E is crap, he was running WOG.
Personally even in duels i play very aggressive (always aggressive in arena), hence i would never spent 3 HP for something that has such a minor impact on overall situations and rather just dps to burn my target down during my Wings phase.
I mean don't me wrong in some 1v1 or wpvp it can be useful, since it is more of a personal choice, but in rated PvP 3s Arena or RBGs (where most dps are casters anyways) i just see WOG or VG pulling far ahead.

[Deleted]

Read the feedback thread. Holy fuck, both Celestalon and Kalgan have their heads so deep up their asses that at this point I doubt anyone can pull those out. It's amazing how selective they are in their responses, hedging or simply ignoring major points brought out.
Legion's design more and more reminds me of them catering to casuals/lfr heroes with all the "fun" and "engaging" abilities all the while this crowd cares very little if at all for the design. And if that is true to even a slight extent, Blizz is happy because they can shove shittiest ideas and no one will bat an eye. I mean, it's not like the vocal prominent players are ringing the flood bells right?

Despite my deepest desires to try out alpha, I still hasn't gotten in but judging from the builds and overall opinions, it seems having even 1 spot for Ret in mythic might be a stretch in the top 500 bracket. Which is a shame cause now I have to roflstomp my fellow ret even harder. Hunger games man, hunger games.

[Snegovik]

Equality wise, blizzard stated that amount of dmg you deal to enemy players is reduced (i didnt see the numbers if they are out at all) also the small range also bugs me of that spell, since our mobility will be low and easy to kite us, i don;t like our 3min spell having such a short range.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'm going to support hoffahoff here.
Thus build is so great.
No need to hate Equality, it really is getter now.

Before, I would not use it once in 5 minutes.
Now I'll be able to not use it once in 3 minutes.
Its an tremendous improvement.

Oh and as an offhand note:
God fucking damnit reg.

[Hofflerand]

You're right that pure physical cleaves aren't common anymore, Sneg, but 35% is a high number and I expect we'll find use for E4E in rated PvP. You seem to imply that it costs holy power (unless you were still talking about WoG) but that cost was removed a while back. Tier 75 in general looks very fun to me.

To clarify my thoughts on Equality, it'll be pretty situational in general, but I don't mind an occasional talent like this. I'll enjoy goofing around with it on my own time and I expect every so often it'll be decent in group content. Equality certainly isn't in the top five changes / additions to Ret I can't wait to get my hands on, but the way some people complain about it one would think it's a problem akin to this Judgment fiasco.

It's not.

I'm going to support hoffahoff here.
Thus build is so great.
No need to hate Equality, it really is getter now.

Before, I would not use it once in 5 minutes.
Now I'll be able to not use it once in 3 minutes.
Its an tremendous improvement.

If I thought this build was so great I wouldn't have provided so much criticism on the alpha forum. But I'm able to simultaneously point out stuff I like, imagine that.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're right that pure physical cleaves aren't common anymore, Sneg, but 35% is a high number and I expect we'll find use for E4E in rated PvP. You seem to imply that it costs holy power (unless you were still talking about WoG) but that cost was removed a while back. Tier 75 in general looks very fun to me.

To clarify my thoughts on Equality, it'll be pretty situational in general, but I don't mind an occasional talent like this. I'll enjoy goofing around with it on my own time and I expect every so often it'll be decent in group content. Equality certainly isn't in the top five changes / additions to Ret I can't wait to get my hands on, but the way some people complain about it one would think it's a problem akin to this Judgment fiasco.

It's not.


If I thought this build was so great I wouldn't have provided so much criticism on the alpha forum. But I'm able to simultaneously point out stuff I like, imagine that.

And I am totally with you on that!

This build sees so much versatility for ret!

Holyinterruptbaitwrath is fething unusable in PvP at all.
Equality is literally unusable in any serious dragonslaying scenario and sure as sure will be finely tubed regarding PvP not to mention its already finely tuned CD.

And last but not least, Empowered Seals of Empowered Blessings cementes on ret spec fantasy as of one being a fabulous, glorious buffbot.

I'm so hyped.
Yay.

[Snegovik]

You're right that pure physical cleaves aren't common anymore, Sneg, but 35% is a high number and I expect we'll find use for E4E in rated PvP. You seem to imply that it costs holy power (unless you were still talking about WoG) but that cost was removed a while back. Tier 75 in general looks very fun to me.

To clarify my thoughts on Equality, it'll be pretty situational in general, but I don't mind an occasional talent like this. I'll enjoy goofing around with it on my own time and I expect every so often it'll be decent in group content. Equality certainly isn't in the top five changes / additions to Ret I can't wait to get my hands on, but the way some people complain about it one would think it's a problem akin to this Judgment fiasco.

It's not.


If I thought this build was so great I wouldn't have provided so much criticism on the alpha forum. But I'm able to simultaneously point out stuff I like, imagine that.

The only thing i can see E4E good is 2s, when you are running 2x dps (as i always do )))) ) and you face war/healer or feral/healer, yes in these situations E4E would be amazing (sorry you were right, no idea why i thought E4E still costed 3HP...i am about to finish my 11 hour work day lol, brain is like scrambled eggs), but in pvp that matters (for title/mount) such as 3s and RBGs E4E may have it uses but only 1% of the time, besides i just like WOG much more in 3s, also vs DOT clvs, you can just help out your healer by healing ur entire team, def will come handy =).

Equality...i just dont like the whole design of short range, not 100% dmg taken in PvP, it may be only 20% of your hp missing, instead of 100%, which will make it a crappy talent.

[Hofflerand]

Your straw man arguments are killing me, Storm.

Sneg, I think E4E will be useful in 3's more often than 1% of the time, but we'll just have to wait to see. Equality can always be unnerfed against players by a few percentage points at a time until it's useful without being OP. Whether or not the devs keep a close enough eye on it to actually do this is ofc another story.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Your pathetic attempts at ridiculing totally viable concerns are making me cringe Hoff.

Don't.

[Deleted]

Read the feedback thread. Holy fuck, both Celestalon and Kalgan have their heads so deep up their asses that at this point I doubt anyone can pull those out. It's amazing how selective they are in their responses, hedging or simply ignoring major points brought out.
Legion's design more and more reminds me of them catering to casuals/lfr heroes with all the "fun" and "engaging" abilities all the while this crowd cares very little if at all for the design. And if that is true to even a slight extent, Blizz is happy because they can shove shittiest ideas and no one will bat an eye. I mean, it's not like the vocal prominent players are ringing the flood bells right?

Despite my deepest desires to try out alpha, I still hasn't gotten in but judging from the builds and overall opinions, it seems having even 1 spot for Ret in mythic might be a stretch in the top 500 bracket. Which is a shame cause now I have to roflstomp my fellow ret even harder. Hunger games man, hunger games.

Design > all... numbers and balancing is easy if design is good. Fun and engaging > all too.
That said, what exactly are those "fun" and "engaging" abilities in Ret? Its mostly other way around, boring and badly designed stuff that makes no sense from any standpoint. I dont see anything fun and engaging there... and that is the main issue lol. Its all bad design that shouldnt have been in the game at all, let alone after 12 years.

Need to be well designed, provide choices and work well with the spec... then numbers are easy to deal with, and can be done as expansion goes on if something scales too good or not good enough. But at the moment, bad design is actually the biggest issue in ret... as nothing works well with other stuff, nothing is engaging, there is no synergy, there are no meaningful choices etc. Im sure issue with equality is not design wise, right? Because if they reduce CD, now everyone will take it!!!! Not really... its bad design, balancing it is pretty much useless atm
Yes, i guess no one cares about design... and then everyone complains how its all badly designed and doesnt work well... and plenty of that from casuals and "prominent" alike. Makes sense. Casuals care about design much more than hardcore players, as they just want to bo competitive and be good in raids/pvp, while casuals care more about fun and how class plays (you know, more design stuff) than if they are competitive in mythic raiding or high end pvp

[Deleted]

I hate that our mastery is a ST stat and the design of Greater Judgment is a travesty. As Judgment is the only really interesting part of our rotation in Legion, why are we able to ignore managing it so much of the time?

I'm gonna voice an unpopular opinion: I'm more or less fine with Equality now that it's a 3 min cooldown. I don't agree with the hate train. Yes it will be very situational in raids, but not every single talent has to be designed around one aspect of the game. Even if y'all focus on that aspect to the exclusion of everything else. I think Equality has an interesting design. I think it'll be cool in a mythic+ dungeon to taunt a mob off the tank when he's getting low and then use abilities like Shield of Vengeance, Eye for an Eye, and Equality (not that all of these require taunt to be useful. I'm just very happy to have it back). And if we drop too low, our bubbles are a lot less restrictive than they once were.

So many people shit on the idea of class fantasy but it's important to me and in some aspects I think the devs are doing a great job making Ret feel like a very angry, spiteful paladin. No, this is not me writing the devs a blank check - I just think sometimes people bandwagon the wrong causes.

Your tune is gonna change once you get critted and die by mistake. Don't even think about divine intervention as that gives you forbearance.
You are gonna die and ruin your run and your team is gonna get pissed with you. It's not reliable. You think you want to use it, but when you actually do, you will see its unpractical.

Accepting equality means accepting you will only have 2 choices for your 100 row. I still think that it would be ok as baseline cause then it would'nt compete with other talents.
Regardless, the fate of niche abilities that you hardly press is to be removed. Equality, in this form will get removed from the game sooner or later. As i said before, its just the time necessary for Blizz to come to their senses when they are no longer attached to the ability.
Besides, i'm not even convinced the damage it does is even worth all the hassle.

[Deleted]

It´s great how so little change can incite so much discussion. But 2 things from my side:

1. @Solsacra if you still have it somewhere could you give us the content of your post or in case you deleted it yourself the reason why?

2. @"All-who-thought-I-was-too-negative" please read the feedback from kal and cel again. Let it sink in. Let it simmer. And now think of me giving you a friendly smile and a "Told you so!".

Now onto a more practical discussion we will now have to farm for 2 set´s of gear one for singe target and one for AoE. Not ideal but not unseen as well. Other classes have different sets for every specc and us special snowflakes for every available talent combination.
After writing this I start to see were the "engaging" will come from. JOY!

[Deleted]

Design > all... numbers and balancing is easy if design is good. Fun and engaging > all too.
That said, what exactly are those "fun" and "engaging" abilities in Ret? Its mostly other way around, boring and badly designed stuff that makes no sense from any standpoint. I dont see anything fun and engaging there... and that is the main issue lol. Its all bad design that shouldnt have been in the game at all, let alone after 12 years.

Need to be well designed, provide choices and work well with the spec... then numbers are easy to deal with, and can be done as expansion goes on if something scales too good or not good enough. But at the moment, bad design is actually the biggest issue in ret... as nothing works well with other stuff, nothing is engaging, there is no synergy, there are no meaningful choices etc. Im sure issue with equality is not design wise, right? Because if they reduce CD, now everyone will take it!!!! Not really... its bad design, balancing it is pretty much useless atm
Yes, i guess no one cares about design... and then everyone complains how its all badly designed and doesnt work well... and plenty of that from casuals and "prominent" alike. Makes sense. Casuals care about design much more than hardcore players, as they just want to bo competitive and be good in raids/pvp, while casuals care more about fun and how class plays (you know, more design stuff) than if they are competitive in mythic raiding or high end pvp

Did you really not get my sarcasm or are you pulling a straw man now? In the case of scenario A, I was ironically stating how Kalgan and Celestalon defend our current talents with catchphrases like "fun" or "engaging" to cover the PR bullshit for introducing such poor design even though many people (including me multiple builds back) stated that the talents they've introduced are counter-intuitive and definitely not make for an engaging gameplay.
In fact, I still stand by my idea that Equality (Reckoning) should be changed to a 5 min raid-wide utility that deals X damage based on the damage taken during last Z seconds. Then it would have actual use in solo-play and group one.
Ret is a cluster of loose ideas, some work together and others don't. In that feedback thread I read someone mention hybrid tax, if it does indeed exist in Legion (which obviously devs like Kalgan and Celestalon would never admit) then it is only fitting that our 100 talent is made of powerful and meaningful utility spells. Even changing Greater Blessings to very strong cds on a lengthy cooldown would be a great change. I want tier 100 talents to have an impact on the environment I am in, as it stands right now HW seems the most logical option which in itself contradicts their philosophy because they want all talents to be "competitive, engaging and fun" don't they.

Fuck, I'm changing into Storm...

[Morally Grey Storm]

As if its a bad thing ;]

Stay grumpy, stay cynical.
Never forgive, never forget.