Why are players not happy with anything but raid loot?

[Seefer]

At the end of the day though I don't recall anyone begging to have a queue for easy raid content.

All I have to do is go to the "Should LFR be remove poll" and read how many people think it's the best thing ever put in the game and how many people said if it isn't queueable they wouldn't do it to see you are a bit wrong.

[Deleted]

Why do non-raiders want raid gear?

1. non-raid gear looks like shit (this is the main problem IMO)
1. non-raid gear doesn't have any interesting game play (ie no procs)
3. non-raid gear doesn't fix some specs game play like set bonuses does

that doesn't even mention the power gain, if you solo older raids or whatever you do besides raid, having good gear makes it easier and faster to do.

The real question is why are you surprised that people want better gear?? when thats the end game model, improve your character by getting better gear

[Osmeric]

I agree, but that is a decission for blizzard to take.

Yes, in the same sense the design of WildStar was a decision for Carbine to make. It doesn't mean any decision they can make becomes a good decision, just because they made it.

These discussions come down to one of two things: "does <person X> like this decision?", or "is this decision good for the commercial interests of the company making it?" The former is mere subjective opinion of that person and is not much basis for further discussion. The latter is what ultimately controls where the game (and gaming in general) goes.

[Armourboy]

All I have to do is go to the "Should LFR be remove poll" and read how many people think it's the best thing ever put in the game and how many people said if it isn't queueable they wouldn't do it to see you are a bit wrong.

Duh of course they do now, people have gotten used to it being in the game. People not wanting something removed years after it has been added isn't even remotely close to the same as people begging for it before it was ever created. Yes I'm sure there was a sub set of people asking for it, there are people asking for things all the time, but that doesn't mean there was a wide spread voice of people just dying to have it before it was implemented.

When I think of things people asked for I remember things like LFD, Transmog, and things to do with your pets. Tabs or ways to store more stuff, or make it more manageable. It's much like valor upgrades on gear. I don't really recall people asking for that either specifically, what they asked for was something to do with Valor so that they could have a reason to continue to do content.

[Themanintobuildafire]

For me it comes down to time. I have limited quantities of free time.

So, say I like to clear FL hoping for a mount drop. On a highly geared char I can do the mount boss in about 5-10 seconds. On not geared characters it can take up to 3 minutes. All time saved adds up to make it so I can maximize my WoW playing time.

It is a no brainer on why I would want to be geared...

Okay I know, then there is the raiding = time argument. True. But if I pug or get a carry, I am stealing or buying someone else's time as they are leading or in some way carrying me. Therefore the end result is more time for me. I usually wait until the end of the tier and buy a run. Carries were pretty cheap this tier for all heroic gear that would drop, and with garrison you can get everything but tier/weapons from caches so yeah...

TIME is why I want the best loot I can get.

[Seefer]

Duh of course they do now, people have gotten used to it being in the game. People not wanting something removed years after it has been added isn't even remotely close to the same as people begging for it before it was ever created. Yes I'm sure there was a sub set of people asking for it, there are people asking for things all the time, but that doesn't mean there was a wide spread voice of people just dying to have it before it was implemented.

When I think of things people asked for I remember things like LFD, Transmog, and things to do with your pets. Tabs or ways to store more stuff, or make it more manageable. It's much like valor upgrades on gear. I don't really recall people asking for that either specifically, what they asked for was something to do with Valor so that they could have a reason to continue to do content.

People PLAYING the game don't say anything though, it is the vocal minority on social media and forums Blizzard hears, and it was brought up a lot for people without "time" or wanting to "commit to a raid schedule" or wanting to "deal with elitist assholes" etc etc etc.

[Montyqt]

10/chars bravo

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Do they? then why did subs plummeted in WOD?

Because the majority of WoW players aren't casual, something Blizzard seems to overlook. A lot.

[Osmeric]

Because the majority of WoW players aren't casual, something Blizzard seems to overlook. A lot.

What do you mean by "casual" here? If casual means "has no serious raid progression" then most WoW players are casual. If you mean "doesn't play much" then you may be correct, but that doesn't mean they want to be mythic raiders (or could be if they wanted to).

[Brocksley]

I don't want raid gear because of stats, I want it because of looks. Tier gear is often the best designed sets for the expansion. A lot of players just want to look cool, the game is an RPG after all, and people want their characters to look bad ass. This is why I'm upset about removing tier from lfr for WoD and Legion. I couldn't give two shits about it being purple, blue or green quality, I just want the look of it.

[Glorious Leader]

End of the day this clash between progression players and casual has always existed. Just now for the first time casuals have in a meaningful way wounded raiders. Never before have things been changed so drastically that farming world content may very well yield a power gain so large it beats out raiding.

Casuals have also never made up such a small portion of the game as they do now. While still the majority they have been heavily culled by WoD. I hope this new system works out but without their being a content patch every three months I can't see. To much power is being given out to quickly. I can't see the content really lasting long enough for anyone.

Raiders wounded Hahahahahaha lmao you poor victims. Let's turn the victim hood around. Where's my vendor with tier gear?^ gone so you wouldn't feel compelled to farm content yiu didn't want to. Where's my lfr with trinkets? GOOD TRINKETS? gone so you wouldn't feel compelled. Awww you poor thing...

[Zoldor]

Bingo.

Make the first set blue and have a massive quest line to turn it into epic, people will freaking chew it up. The key though is to give people something to work towards, make it interesting, and make it look unique and cool. That like the LFR gear in MoP, I ran the crap as much to get something that looked pretty good as I did to get an upgrade, its one reason I haven't bothered with it on my alts in WoD, the gear is garbage and looks like crap to boot.

I do miss these concepts from Vanilla and BC. I was really sad in wrath when they stopped this. Felt it gave my alts a little extra purpose, the sets always had a classic look/quality to them. Reminded me of like D&D stuff or traditional high fantasy stuff.

To the OP I think you are getting lost in the vocal minority issues. The search for player power is always and issue in an RPG. I seek out more gear to personally test my self on a dps level. I love to compete for the top spot in my raid, if we were mythic, I'd be trying to perform at the highest level for the sake of logging just for my own personal fun. That is fun to me. I also like the way that gear interacts with rotations etc. Spices it up, you reach X point you can take a different talent mix up the rotation add some nuance to you spec etc.

It isn't about trivializing the content. After you've struggled to pass it with low gear its nice to blaze down a boss who was problematic before or barely making time and gloat over his dead digital corpse. In the early tiers its about making the next tier of progression a little less of an uphill battle and allow you to easily pass a couple bosses night 1 or at least make it to wear you aren't barely treading water on a DPS/HPS check boss.

Also, it is only one aspect of the game. I know tons of players that don't care one bit about their ilvl. It is just one carrot on one stick.

[Deleted]

Raiders wounded Hahahahahaha lmao you poor victims. Let's turn the victim hood around. Where's my vendor with tier gear?^ gone so you wouldn't feel compelled to farm content yiu didn't want to. Where's my lfr with trinkets? GOOD TRINKETS? gone so you wouldn't feel compelled. Awww you poor thing...

I will never understand people like you. If you desire nothing but grinds for perceived social status why not play farmvile or progressionquest. Why play games where they are supposed to get harder?

This new generation of cow clicker games seems like they offer what you want. Why not go to them?

[MoanaLisa]

I will never understand people like you. If you desire nothing but grinds for perceived social status why not play farmvile or progressionquest. Why play games where they are supposed to get harder?

This new generation of cow clicker games seems like they offer what you want. Why not go to them?

Now you are comparing things like vanilla, BC and Wrath attunements and grinds to Facebook games. That's ridiculous. Achievements and their titles are good for perceived social status as well. I suppose they are the equivalent of Facebook/cow clicker games too. Grinding valor or reputation for decent gear is nothing at all like Candy Crush.

It's difficult to believe that you're even serious.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't want raid gear because of stats, I want it because of looks. Tier gear is often the best designed sets for the expansion. A lot of players just want to look cool, the game is an RPG after all, and people want their characters to look bad ass. This is why I'm upset about removing tier from lfr for WoD and Legion. I couldn't give two shits about it being purple, blue or green quality, I just want the look of it.

Now you are comparing things like vanilla, BC and Wrath attunements and grinds to Facebook games. That's ridiculous. Achievements and their titles are good for perceived social status as well. I suppose they are the equivalent of Facebook/cow clicker games too. Grinding valor or reputation for decent gear is nothing at all like Candy Crush.

It's difficult to believe that you're even serious.

He's probably not. He thinks raiders are the victims when they've had content tailored for them while everyone else got nothing or hand me down bullshit.

Grinding those currencies was not the bleeding edge of challenging content but it required INVESTMENT on the part of the players. That is exactly what the game is sorely missing. It was gutted ostensible so that the weekend warriors who want to beat their head against a wall for 2 hours and the log off never feel compelled to do anything else in the game. Well I say too bad. You aren't forced but if your particular peer group is so stupid then feel forced all you want in fact I welcome it. It's a sure sign that the rest of the game will work for everyone else.

[soulzek]

The issue with raiding is the logistical requirements. Flex does a fine job of making Normal / Heroic raiding much easier to get into, since you don't require an exact number of players to do the raids. For someone like me, where Normal and Heroic raiding is too easy, and Mythic raiding requiring too much of my time (Scheduling nights to play just isn't a good option, especially when raids can easily be called off because someone couldn't make it).

Getting some 5-man content that is as hard as I can manage, while providing worthwhile rewards, is a godsend. I can fill a 5-man team with IRL friends, resulting in no real scheduling required. If they are online, we can get going quickly, if they aren't, they might still be interested and I can definitely get in contact with them.

The difficulty of raiding is not the issue, it is the difficulty of getting a large number of reliable players that is the real issue for me, and Mythic+ dungeons will allow me to avoid the hazzle of getting a raid group.

[Deleted]

Now you are comparing things like vanilla, BC and Wrath attunements and grinds to Facebook games. That's ridiculous. Achievements and their titles are good for perceived social status as well. I suppose they are the equivalent of Facebook/cow clicker games too. Grinding valor or reputation for decent gear is nothing at all like Candy Crush.

It's difficult to believe that you're even serious.

Didn't compare it to candy crush. Candy crush takes quite a bit more skill it wouldn't be fair to compare it.

Grinding out easy dungeons and I imagine quests for the express purpose of skipping content designed for their level of play is asinine. I don't see where you would compare finishing a raid tier equivalent to grinding honor. Are you talking about how dungeons acted as a logical first step to gear and attune people to raids?

I like to believe you can see the difference between doing something at its intended point in the progression path compared to running dungeons when your 40 ilvs above what they are attuned for to get items that are 80 ilvs above the content...

It isn't good game design and if that is what drives someone they honestly would be happier finding a facebook cow clicker then playing a rpg.

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He's probably not. He thinks raiders are the victims when they've had content tailored for them while everyone else got nothing or hand me down bullshit.

Grinding those currencies was not the bleeding edge of challenging content but it required INVESTMENT on the part of the players. That is exactly what the game is sorely missing. It was gutted ostensible so that the weekend warriors who want to beat their head against a wall for 2 hours and the log off never feel compelled to do anything else in the game. Well I say too bad. You aren't forced but if your particular peer group is so stupid then feel forced all you want in fact I welcome it. It's a sure sign that the rest of the game will work for everyone else.

Yes... right now with mythic five mans tuned to 660 gear yet dropping BiS items things are tuned to raiders. With a tier being cut it just shows how much blizz loves that 1%

You honestly annoy me, you really do. You don't even see content in this game. All that exists for you is the addiction to increase your ilv. If something is beyond you in terms of skill you whine for the rewards to be given to you.

I look at a wow designed for the kind of player you are and I see servers so dead not even a single dungeon can be filled.

[Glorious Leader]

Didn't compare it to candy crush. Candy crush takes quite a bit more skill it wouldn't be fair to compare it.

Grinding out easy dungeons and I imagine quests for the express purpose of skipping content designed for their level of play is asinine. I don't see where you would compare finishing a raid tier equivalent to grinding honor. Are you talking about how dungeons acted as a logical first step to gear and attune people to raids?

I like to believe you can see the difference between doing something at its intended point in the progression path compared to running dungeons when your 40 ilvs above what they are attuned for to get items that are 80 ilvs above the content...

It isn't good game design and if that is what drives someone they honestly would be happier finding a facebook cow clicker then playing a rpg.

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Yes... right now with mythic five mans tuned to 660 gear yet dropping BiS items things are tuned to raiders. With a tier being cut it just shows how much blizz loves that 1%

You honestly annoy me, you really do. You don't even see content in this game. All that exists for you is the addiction to increase your ilv. If something is beyond you in terms of skill you whine for the rewards to be given to you.

I look at a wow designed for the kind of player you are and I see servers so dead not even a single dungeon can be filled.

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Yes... right now with mythic five mans tuned to 660 gear yet dropping BiS items things are tuned to raiders. With a tier being cut it just shows how much blizz loves that 1%

You honestly annoy me, you really do. You don't even see content in this game. All that exists for you is the addiction to increase your ilv. If something is beyond you in terms of skill you whine for the rewards to be given to you.

I look at a wow designed for the kind of player you are and I see servers so dead not even a single dungeon can be filled.

Well the current design had me waiting in que for 45 minutes for a dungeon because the developers sure love that 1%. I'm glad I annoy you , I suspect somewhere you comprehend the criticism I make you just don't like the implications that derive from it. With tier and trinkets being cut from the valor vendor and lfr it's shown most people exactly what they deserve out of the game and it turns out folks don't like that. I quite wonder if the developers think players had it to good before and share in your regressive ethic. Maybe they feel victimized as well? CASUALS WOUNDED YOU AND THE DEVELOPERS. Behold ye mighty casual and tremble.

[Irian]

Because, whether they're aware of it or not, almost every player's incentive in this game is to gain something and become stronger. That's what WoW's format is based around. Attempting to say "well you have the gear for your content!" just shows that you don't understand the concept of incentivization. If someone's playing the game, they need a method of progression or else they will get bored and quit, regardless of whether they raid or not.

For raiders, it's a clear-cut path; kill bosses, get loot. But for other players, up until WoD they did have a method of progression in the form of VP. They could do whatever content they wanted but still had a goal, and they paid for their lack of raiding in the speed in which they obtained gear equal to the raiders. Sure, you'd get your tier gear, but you wouldn't get it nearly as fast as a player who killed even the first four bosses in the current raid.

In WoD and seemingly Legion as well, their system of progression is gone and nothing is being done to fill the void. Regardless of who you are - yes, even the dumb mouthbreather hunter who likes to accidentally barrage pull in dungeons - you need a form of gradual progression that keeps you playing each week. That's the most fundamental, raw form of enjoyment in MMORPGs and a core reason why WoD failed so spectacularly in all aspects save raiding.

[deniter]

Didn't compare it to candy crush. Candy crush takes quite a bit more skill it wouldn't be fair to compare it.

Grinding out easy dungeons and I imagine quests for the express purpose of skipping content designed for their level of play is asinine. I don't see where you would compare finishing a raid tier equivalent to grinding honor. Are you talking about how dungeons acted as a logical first step to gear and attune people to raids?

I like to believe you can see the difference between doing something at its intended point in the progression path compared to running dungeons when your 40 ilvs above what they are attuned for to get items that are 80 ilvs above the content...

It isn't good game design and if that is what drives someone they honestly would be happier finding a facebook cow clicker then playing a rpg.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes... right now with mythic five mans tuned to 660 gear yet dropping BiS items things are tuned to raiders. With a tier being cut it just shows how much blizz loves that 1%

You honestly annoy me, you really do. You don't even see content in this game. All that exists for you is the addiction to increase your ilv. If something is beyond you in terms of skill you whine for the rewards to be given to you.

I look at a wow designed for the kind of player you are and I see servers so dead not even a single dungeon can be filled.

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Yes... right now with mythic five mans tuned to 660 gear yet dropping BiS items things are tuned to raiders. With a tier being cut it just shows how much blizz loves that 1%

You honestly annoy me, you really do. You don't even see content in this game. All that exists for you is the addiction to increase your ilv. If something is beyond you in terms of skill you whine for the rewards to be given to you.

I look at a wow designed for the kind of player you are and I see servers so dead not even a single dungeon can be filled.

That's right. I've played Candy Crush Soda Saga about two year now and i've got only to level 705 this far. I can't say it takes skill or anything, but it certainly takes some luck to get that far. Can't really say the same about World of Warcraft. I used to play WoW for 6 years straight but now the only Blizzard game that can keep my attention is this stupid Facebook game. :P

[Deleted]

Well the current design had me waiting in que for 45 minutes for a dungeon because the developers sure love that 1%. I'm glad I annoy you , I suspect somewhere you comprehend the criticism I make you just don't like the implications that derive from it. With tier and trinkets being cut from the valor vendor and lfr it's shown most people exactly what they deserve out of the game and it turns out folks don't like that. I quite wonder if the developers think players had it to good before and share in your regressive ethic. Maybe they feel victimized as well? CASUALS WOUNDED YOU AND THE DEVELOPERS. Behold ye mighty casual and tremble.

You are nothing but golem...

You both love and hate ilv. To be honest you more or less make up what I view casual players as. If the game never gave you rewards far outside of the contents difficulty curve I believe you and your ilk would of been happy.

Instead they faltered and much like the one ring it has twisted and corrupted you. So long as you can obtain higher and higher ilv you would be delighted doing nothing but grind the same mob that dies in one hit over and over again literally hunting nothing but rats.

I always feel sorry for the "casual" I remember what you once were so very long ago. Slowly progressing through dungeons getting a little bit better and enjoying your small tight knit guild.

You touched high ilv though and now its twisted you into this. I don't think you could ever return to the sire even if we brought you to it now.