PVE set bonuses and Mythic+ dungeons

[Deleted]

The problem that will happen is this:

You want to progress through mythic+ dungeons, but it doesn't drop your set or have set bonuses. To do harder mythic+ dungeons, you have to raid for gear with set bonuses.
.

Sorry, I must have overseen this somewhere: Can you provide the source that stated what will be available through the mythic+ reward? That specifically said it won't be raid loot?

[Deleted]

There will proberly be unique items for Mythic+, just like there will unique items for raiding. You might get the tier sets in raiding, but you might get really powerfull trinkets in Mythic+. You are always going to be best off if you do both Mythic+ and raiding. That will always be the case, so its never gonna be equal.

Then the system is dead before even releasing the expansion, that is not an alternative way of gearing, different from raids, that is everyone has to do raids and Mythic+, whether they want to do both gamestyles or not, because as someone mentioned we do already know how pugs work.
That will make raiders and dungeoners very unhappy with the system.

[Deleted]

There will proberly be unique items for Mythic+, just like there will unique items for raiding. You might get the tier sets in raiding, but you might get really powerfull trinkets in Mythic+. You are always going to be best off if you do both Mythic+ and raiding. That will always be the case, so its never gonna be equal.

Outrageous!!! Are you saying the special snowflakes that do mythic+ will get better loot than raiders? How dare you blizzard! Are you saying we could turn the entire argument of OP by 180°? Let's do it!

I feel there will be a huge problem if the highest itemlevel and best trinkets are not obtainable from content besides mythic+.

The problem that will happen is this:

You want to progress through raids, but it doesn't drop your trinkets or highest ilvl available. To do harder raid content, you have to do mythic+ for the best gear.

That isn't right, and completely destroys the "progression" of progressing through raids by themselves and having it as it's entirely separate 20 man only progression path equally as challenging as mythic+ dungeons.

I hope that Blizzard allows mythic+ trinkets to come from other content besides mythic+ dungeons in Legion because they are always insanely overpowered and strong, or they disable dungeon gear from working in raids entirely.

mythic+ trinkets might also be a problem, but ilvl available in mythic+ like double your damage as a lot of classes. Look at the 10ilvl through valor increase right now. 400k DPS? That's insane.

I can't post on the Alpha forums as I do not have access but I hope someone brings this up to Blizzard, because I think it will be a huge oversight and cause problems if people are feeling forced to do raids to progress through mythic+ dungeons.

[Flurryfang]

Then the system is dead before even releasing the expansion, that is not an alternative way of gearing, different from raids, that is everyone has to do raids and Mythic+, whether they want to do both gamestyles or not, because as someone mentioned we do already know how pugs work.
That will make raiders and dungeoners very unhappy with the system.

As soon as you put in any form of unique or exiting reward in either raiding or Mythic+, people are gonna say that you have to do both, if you want to be competative. ... and that is sadly gonna happend. Either they are gonna make Mythic+ so unrewarding when it comes to power, that few people will only play it because of cosmetic items or they are gonna make it rewarding enough, which means that raiders will feel forced to play it on their off nights.

In my opnion, the last option is the best. It will give you so much content, that you will have to choose between the 2 and hopefully you will choose what you enjoy the most. You can't disable tier sets in Mythic+, since it will take away some of the most awesome things in the game, which is to play characters with awesome tier abilities. Can't disable Mythic+ unique rewards in raiding, because if you raid, why the hell would you even use your time on Mythic+? Even as a full time raider, i would still love to play mythic+, but if it is as hard as raiding(requires the same amount of preperation and time investment) yet gives me no reward, i would do it very rarely... Which would be sad, since i would proberly love the feature.

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Outrageous!!! Are you saying the special snowflakes that do mythic+ will get better loot than raiders? How dare you blizzard! Are you saying we could turn the entire argument of OP by 180°? Let's do it!

Sometimes... you just have to accept that there is more stuff to do then you have time. If they at any point make something really good unique to a single feature, people will flock to that feature to be better geared. So yeah, you can turn it around 180 degress, but you don't have to.

Making a new system, which is supposed to be equal to the raiding system is gonna be very hard and some difficult decisions are gonna be made, some decisions that will make or break the system. One thing, which i know is true, is that you have to reward people for playing Mythic+, but you can't block raiding equipment in that system or people will just feel as castrated as they do in current challenge mode.

[PaladinBash]

Yeah you can gradually progress really far in Mythic+ by doing Mythic+ well but eventually you're going to need more gear than it can provide. I don't see the problem with that to be honest. Heroic is easy to pug if you've got high enough ilvl (as if anyone taking pugs cares about anything else). Just grind that shit and accept that 4 pieces of your gear are going to take a hit in raw stats for that set bonus. Pretty sure there'll be some kind of bullshit trinket that's worse ilvl but more powerful too.

Again, if you really want to do the highest level of it, you're going to have to do raids. Heroic is not hard and if you are really good at Mythic+ I am sure you can manage Heroic raiding. I doubt very much you will need Mythic raid gear in every slot to do Mythic+ dungeons at a high level. Oh sure, to be the very best like no one ever was you will have to...but you're not that if you aren't even in a guild to get that gear from.

[Deleted]

In my opnion, the last option is the best. It will give you so much content, that you will have to choose between the 2 and hopefully you will choose what you enjoy the most. You can't disable tier sets in Mythic+, since it will take away some of the most awesome things in the game, which is to play characters with awesome tier abilities. Can't disable Mythic+ unique rewards in raiding, because if you raid, why the hell would you even use your time on Mythic+? Even as a full time raider, i would still love to play mythic+, but if it is as hard as raiding(requires the same amount of preperation and time investment) yet gives me no reward, i would do it very rarely... Which would be sad, since i would proberly love the feature.

I do understand what you say and you are right, but here is the thing, Mythic+ goal is to provide and end game content to people who do not want raiding as their end game content, or is it designed so that raiders have and end game content besides raiding?.
It can be one or the other but not both.
If i have to do raiding, because i am gonna need raiding drops to be better at my suposedly end game content, then it is not an alternative to raiding, it is somehow complementary to it, and it is gonna make it fail hard.

[Flurryfang]

As I suggested do the following. Disable tier set bonus in Mythic+ (tier items seem to be budgeted equal to items of the same ilvl with the set bonus as an extra). Make the trinkets that drop in Mythic+ all part of a set. When you have two such trinkets you activate a set bonus that functions in Mythic+ only. There; raiders will have no advantage beyond their higher ilvl (so an advantage that later on those who run dungeons should be able to match) and Mythic+ no longer drops gear that raiders want so they don't have to feel forced to do such content to be competitive (they probably will anyway but at least it will be for something minor like a small ilvl update, not something huge like a good trinket or a set bonus). Plus you can create some fun effects through those trinket sets that interact with Mythic+ mechanics e.g. you could have different sets (with 2-3 trinkets bound to each set) and have them interact with affixes.

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I think if you fail the timer you deplete the keystone (but get loot anyway)

Nope, you can't do that. That will create situations, where people will feel like their rewards are useless, because they change playstyle. If i was a raider for 2 months, got good gear and had my fun, got invited into a great mytich+ group, my gear will be useless. The only reason the tier sets are good, is because of the bonus. That situation will stop many people from jumping between mythic and raiding, while the opposite is really what you want. Blizzard would proberly want to make it easy to flow between the 2; to enjoy each feature when you want to.

[nazrakin]

Absolutely. Tier gear, trinkets, and relics should all be available through the mythic+ weekly order chest. Likewise for the pvp strong boxes, pvp gear should have the same set bonuses and trinkets.

[Deleted]

Yeah you can gradually progress really far in Mythic+ by doing Mythic+ well but eventually you're going to need more gear than it can provide. I don't see the problem with that to be honest. Heroic is easy to pug if you've got high enough ilvl (as if anyone taking pugs cares about anything else)

The "problem" is that the moment you have to do raiding for playing it, it is not an alternative end game content.

[snackfeat]

Absolutely. Tier gear, trinkets, and relics should all be available through the mythic+ weekly order chest. Likewise for the pvp strong boxes, pvp gear should have the same set bonuses and trinkets.

Trinkets won't even work in pvp.

[Flurryfang]

I do understand what you say and you are right, but here is the thing, Mythic+ goal is to provide and end game content to people who do not want raiding as their end game content, or is it designed so that raiders have and end game content besides raiding?.
It can be one or the other but not both.
If i have to do raiding, because i am gonna need raiding drops to be better at my suposedly end game content, then it is not an alternative to raiding, it is somehow complementary to it, and it is gonna make it fail hard.

If they make 1 source of content completly unique to 1 group, then Blizz are gonna meet the same problem as they have with WoD; Content drought. If this was the case, you would completly split the community, they would make content in 2 small piles, then pooling it all into 1 large pile.'
As i see it, Mythic+ is made to give an alternative to raiding, but that does not mean that its rewards should be exclusive to a person who will only play mythic+. This will make the playerbase for Mythic+ very small, since raiding fights are nearly always gonna bring a better experience then any 5 man content can give.

Its hard to get through with my point here, but i think i can sume it up with this question: "How many people do you think will play Mythic+, if they had to choose between that and raiding?". Some might choose it.. But not all. Its gonna end up with making 1 source of content be neglected, since most players are not playing it.

[Feuerbart]

Except you're contradicting blizzard there who said it'd be a true alternate path to raiding. The reason people are obsessed with tier gear is your benchmark tier bonus is a 3% damage increase, and often they are higher - being over 10% combined at times. That's a 10% you can never attain, and makes it 10% easier (that's more than keystone level, as a measurement) for people with them.

There is no contradiction here. Alternative path to gear up doesn´t mean you get the same stuff. Just that there is power progression outside of raids which in this case is more or less (more likely) on par with what you get in raids.

[Deleted]

Nope, you can't do that. That will create situations, where people will feel like their rewards are useless, because they change playstyle. If i was a raider for 2 months, got good gear and had my fun, got invited into a great mytich+ group, my gear will be useless.

Yes and that would be good, because you CHOSE raiding as your end game content, same way you should suck in PVP content, if that has never been your endgame.
And if i choose Mythic+ as my end game content i must suck with that gear in raiding, it is only fair.
If i want to do well in raiding, then i should do raiding for getting gear to be on par with you, it is not fair that i am competitive in your end game content without taking part on it.

[nazrakin]

Trinkets won't even work in pvp.

No gear "works" in pvp, the only thing taken into consideration is ilvls. However, blizzard has said that you will earn "the best gear in the game" from pvp, if that doesnt include the same set bonuses, warforged procs, and trinkets as raiding then that is a flat out lie.

[Deleted]

If they make 1 source of content completly unique to 1 group, then Blizz are gonna meet the same problem as they have with WoD; Content drought.

Why? it is the opposite, if you like both end games you are gonna have to play them separadtely, which means more content, not less.

[Deleted]

Its hard to get through with my point here, but i think i can sume it up with this question: "How many people do you think will play Mythic+, if they had to choose between that and raiding?

Raiders have said left and right they had nothing to do in WOD besides raiding, and now having an entire game that you have to start from scratch is a problem? Why?.
This is the only way of making it work, this way no one is forced to do both end games, but you can decide to do both out of will, and not out of need.

[Celarent]

Vault bosses dropped tier and didn't discourage players from raiding.

As long as keystone dungeons provide tier in a less efficient way than raiding, there should be no problem. But if these dungeons are actually going to be run by more than bored Mythic players -- WoW is a game of goals, and gear fits the bill.

[Deleted]

The "problem" is that the moment you have to do raiding for playing it, it is not an alternative end game content.

You dont have to do raiding to play them you will just end up in lower levels then raiders. And gues what they deserver to be in higher level becouse they put more effort into the game then you. Nobady resricted you from raiding. You can also obtain tier sets from raiding just like other players. If you dont want to or you dont have time then this is your problem not game.

This game have alredy enough stupid rule sets to begin with. Like restricted leg items and we dont need more made up rules just so you are unable to raid.

[Deleted]

Vault bosses dropped tier and didn't discourage players from raiding.

My thought exactly. Not to mention old mark/valor gear.

[Deleted]

All tier - Relics and stuff like that wont leave raids. Atleast i hope they dont. Mythic + if they get anything, maybe a little increase on LFR sets. End of.