Vol'jin or Sylvanas : Who do you find more capable as the Warchief?

[Ramz]

A death threat on the first encounter is not the role of an advisor.

It was reaction to Garrosh words, and he was the one who was first throwing threats. Somehow people keep forgetting that Garrosh said first "You're lucky I won't gut you right here whelp". Which obviously was the trigger.

Garrosh was mocking Vol'Jin even before he was given the mantle. I'm surprised Vol'Jin didn't snapped at him sooner.

[RevanTN]

You're wrong, He send his people to fight for Garrosh. Like it was in Stonetalon or Theramore attack. However as advisor it was his job to talk sense into Garrosh.
But Garrosh didn't listened to anyone, he was bleeding Horde dry for his utopian dreams. Stopping him was necessity, becuase sooner or later Horde would break apart.

Vol'Jin was one of the Founders of the new Horde he spent half of his life serving it, preparing tacical operations, and fighting for it. So obviously he won't let one madman with daddy issues to ruin it. If anything it shown that he was loyal to the Horde, it's values, and managed to keep it's integrity .

He made the threats before that. His VERY first course of action was to threaten the warchief of THE HORDE. That is not what an advisor does. Further more Cairne acted on assumption and unverified claims and challenged Garrosh to a duel. Is it Garrosh's fault that Cairne's ineptitude let his rival Grimtotems poison Garrosh's axe? No. Garrosh himself was wronged in that scenario, the Grimtotem stained his honor. As an orc there is no bigger shame.

What daddy issues? That has nothing to do with Vol'jins treachery.

[Raiju]

It was reaction to Garrosh words, and he was the one who was first throwing threats. Somehow people keep forgetting that Garrosh said first "You're lucky I won't gut you right here whelp". Which obviously was the trigger.

Garrosh was mocking Vol'Jin even before he was given the mantle. I'm surprised Vol'Jin didn't snapped at him sooner.

Majority of this thread is mocking Vol'jin, turns out he has good reasons to be mocked.

[Deleted]

He literally started disobeying the warchief of the Horde for no reason at all for no apparent reason. He undermined him AND the Hordes war effort his his shenanigans. He actively formed a union of discontent and rebellion during a time of war, all of this because his narrow mindedness . The fact that this guy is our warchief is beyond sad. He is a petty creature.

He made the threats before that. His VERY first course of action was to threaten the warchief of THE HORDE. That is not what an advisor does. Further more Cairne acted on assumption and unverified claims and challenged Garrosh to a duel. Is it Garrosh's fault that Cairne's ineptitude let his rival Grimtotems poison Garrosh's axe? No. Garrosh himself was wronged in that scenario, the Grimtotem stained his honor. As an orc there is no bigger shame.

What daddy issues? That has nothing to do with Vol'jins treachery.

Exactly exactly!

Horde can not be led by lesser races. Well I would not mind Blood Elf Sunstrider loyalist willing to set the world ablaze

May Garrosh come back to save us from limp wristed trolls.

To like Vol'Jin openly is to publically proclaim oneself to be of not the brightest sort.

FOR THE TRUE HORDE!

[Oggudrai]

He made the threats before that. His VERY first course of action was to threaten the warchief of THE HORDE.

No he didn't...

https://youtu.be/kWz_3igKEao?t=12

No threats were being exchanged until 0:43, and the first one came from Garrosh...

Also, this was not their first encounter, their first interaction was before the shattering, when Thrall held a meeting, Garrosh was still a general at that time, not a faction leader. It was at the point that Vol'jin said that the people were happy with "our (the Horde's) success in Northrend" that Garrosh opened his presumptuous mouth and insulted Vol'jin with: ""Our" success? Troll, you played no part in the Horde's victories in Northrend. While I led our warriors against the Lich King, you merely took back a few scattered islands."

That was their first interaction, and it started with Garrosh ignoring the fact that Vol'jin retaking the islands happened after the fact, and that his Darkspears had been contributing to the war effort against the Lich king same as anyone else, and being a massive hypocrite considering Thrall had by and large done just as little in person on the continent of Northrend as Vol'jin had. Thrall and VJ, with the exception of the former joining in during one small scuffle outside of Warsong Hold, being a spectator during the tournament and saying a few words in Dalaran, did the exact same job: they led their people from the capital and sent forces to Northrend... but he's only belittling one of them, for doing their designated job as leaders?

For someone to demonstrate such a staggering ignorance towards one of the many races he was supposed to be left in charge of, I would've been more than a little concerned as well...

All we know is that Vol'jin tried doing something he was charged with doing; advising the Warchief, which said Warchief promptly dismissed as "talking back" at him. Yes, he lost his head and said some nasty words (that he for the most part since then negated by supporting the Horde's campaigns during Cataclysm and answering the Warchief's calls to battle) but the one that instigated antagonism was Garry... Not Vol'jin...

Majority of this thread is mocking Vol'jin, turns out he has good reasons to be mocked.

Mostly because the people in here making these arguments show the same level of ignorance regarding the Darkspear that "Garry" did, both in terms of what they've contributed to the Horde overall and the reasons why Zalazane's reign could last as long as it did... I acknowledge a few certain out of character moments that reflect piss-poorly on the character (troops charging at the juggernaut, his diplomatic snafu during 5.3), the problem is that most of you only acknowledge these things and nothing else... because that's what's most convenient for your position...

It's not a coincidence that the effort to bring Zalazane down happened during the first lull between world-threatening incidents that the factions got to experience since pre-WoW's timeline... As Ramz has already tried to point out; Zalazane claimed the majority of the tribe under his spell, which at best left Vol'jin with 40% of his tribe, and at that point you can't afford to dilute your forces any further... So he made a choice, and that choice was to aid the Horde during its campaigns throughout WoW by focusing his forces there. Garrosh's prejuidice against the Darkspears stemmed from his total lack of understanding of why these islands weren't reclaimed sooner...

To like Vol'Jin openly is to publically proclaim oneself to be of not the brightest sort.

Says the one on the side of the argument which has to remain ignorant, willfully or not, to parts of the lore pointing to his and his tribe's merits that contradicts their bias... I don't care if people dislike them out of preference or how underutilized they are, I do care when people are being intellectually dishonest just to maintain their narrative...

[Deleted]

No he didn't...

https://youtu.be/kWz_3igKEao?t=12

No threats were being exchanged until 0:43, and the first one came from Garrosh...

Also, this was not their first encounter, their first interaction was before the shattering, when Thrall held a meeting, Garrosh was still a general at that time, not a faction leader. It was at the point that Vol'jin said that the people were happy with "our (the Horde's) success in Northrend" that Garrosh opened his presumptuous mouth and insulted Vol'jin with: ""Our" success? Troll, you played no part in the Horde's victories in Northrend. While I led our warriors against the Lich King, you merely took back a few scattered islands."

That was their first interaction, and it started with Garrosh ignoring the fact that Vol'jin retaking the islands happened after the fact, and that his Darkspears had been contributing to the war effort against the Lich king same as anyone else, and being a massive hypocrite considering Thrall had by and large done just as little in person on the continent of Northrend as Vol'jin had. Thrall and VJ, with the exception of the former joining in during one small scuffle outside of Warsong Hold, being a spectator during the tournament and saying a few words in Dalaran, did the exact same job: they led their people from the capital and sent forces to Northrend... but he's only belittling one of them, for doing their designated job as leaders?

For someone to demonstrate such a staggering ignorance towards one of the many races he was supposed to be left in charge of, I would've been more than a little concerned as well...

All we know is that Vol'jin tried doing something he was charged with doing; advising the Warchief, which said Warchief promptly dismissed as "talking back" at him. Yes, he lost his head and said some nasty words (that he for the most part since then negated by supporting the Horde's campaigns during Cataclysm and answering the Warchief's calls to battle) but the one that instigated antagonism was Garry... Not Vol'jin...



Mostly because most of the people in here show the same level of ignorance regarding the Darkspear that "Garry" did, both in terms of what they've contributed to the Horde overall and the reasons why Zalazane's reign could last as long as it did... I acknowledge a few certain out of character moments that reflect piss-poorly on the character (troops charging at the juggernaut, his diplomatic snafu during 5.3), the problem is that most of you only acknowledge these things and nothing else... because that's what's most convenient for your position...

It's not a coincidence that the effort to bring Zalazane down happened during the first lull between world-threatening incidents that the factions got to experience since pre-WoW's timeline... As Ramz has already tried to point out; Zalazane claimed the majority of the tribe under his spell, which at best left Vol'jin with 40% of his tribe, and at that point you can't afford to dilute your forces any further... So he made a choice, and that choice was to aid the Horde during its campaigns throughout WoW by focusing his forces there. Garrosh's prejuidice against the Darkspears stemmed from his total lack of understanding of why these islands weren't reclaimed sooner...



Says the one on the side of the argument which has to remain ignorant, willfully or not, to parts of the lore pointing to his and his tribe's merits that contradicts their bias... I don't care if people dislike them out of preference or how underutilized they are, I do care when people are being intellectually dishonest just to maintain their narrative...

oi silly lad, Garrosh said about 'talking back', we can imagine that slow troll with his vulgar tongue said something very much wrong, and then continued with insults towards his Warchief. It is a treason, and Garrosh should have gutted him that very moment. That guy should have kept his mouth shut and lick Garrosh's toes if he wished it to be so.

did ye read em books? Garrosh won Northrend for the horde, he is the man.

understanding of vol'jin actions? you would want the greatest warchief to nod with approval towards some spineless dunderhead with a tusks instead of balls? pathetic

of course thrall is even worse than maggot troll but that is another story

ignorant is the name you bear when you address me with volumes of naivety you spit in me face, laddie. trolls are nothing but a fuel for the fel.

[Ramz]

He made the threats before that. His VERY first course of action was to threaten the warchief of THE HORDE.

It was Warchief who was threthening him first.

What daddy issues? That has nothing to do with Vol'jins treachery.

What treachery? It was Garrosh who started everything. He denied every adviced, made racial segregation, eliminated everyone he didn't liked, and he was the one who attacked Darksepars first out of paranoia.

Majority of this thread is mocking Vol'jin, turns out he has good reasons to be mocked.

I only see three vocal hypocrites, who refuse to acknowlege his achivements. I wrote quite a lot to expose them and their double standarts. REsearch doesn't take long.

[Deleted]

It was Warchief who was threthening him first.



What treachery? It was Garrosh who started everything. He denied every adviced, made racial segregation, eliminated everyone he didn't liked, and he was the one who attacked Darksepars first out of paranoia.



I only see three vocal hypocrites, who refuse to acknowlege his achivements. I wrote quite a lot to expose them and their double standarts. REsearch doesn't take long.

Little girl, it was not racial segregation but rearrangement where the most useful folk got the best places and useless scum got pushed back. you know the 'earn your place' kind of thing and that spineless doll talking back did not help their cause either.

what treachery? he talked back, he threatened the Warchief. Garrosh could spit in his face and ride his people like ponies and Vol'jins duty would still be to keep shut. Blood Oath! you can write even 1k book but it still will be the old yadda yadda poor tusked limps dindu nuffin ronk

[Kathranis]

Sylvanas.

I'm frankly amazed that Orgrimmar hasn't been overrun by level 5 murlocs, given Vol'jin's track record.

[Rathbourne]

Well actually you could say that what killed cairne was throwing false accusations on people, making wild claims without confirming what really happened, trying to prove your (false) point to the bitter end, being to prideful to back off and being incapable to deal with people who try to assasinate you, but.....ITS GARUSH FAULT BECUZ HES EVIL !!!!

It is both Cairne's and Garrosh's fault.Garrosh made the Makgora till death,wich means even if Magatha didnt get involved it would still end up with one of them dead(almost surely Garrosh). And the duel ended with Garrosh slamming an axe down Cairne's shoulder. The whole thing was utter stupidity that could have been talked about if Cairne hadnt been quick to anger and if Garrosh was smart enough to string a few words together.At the end of the day , to an outsider like Voljin what does it look like.Cairne killed by Garrosh in a duel to the death. There is no logical way you could trust Garrosh at that point and you would confront him if u cared about the Horde. Not to mention Garrosh would be in fits of rage with anyone telling him he was wrong.

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what treachery? he talked back, he threatened the Warchief. Garrosh could spit in his face and ride his people like ponies and Vol'jins duty would still be to keep shut. Blood Oath! you can write even 1k book but it still will be the old yadda yadda poor tusked limps dindu nuffin ronk

Yes.Thats exactly what Garrosh thought. That he could shit on everyone just cuz he was "Warchief".Blood Oath and Titles doesnt mean shit if you dont know how to treat your people with respect.This is not the Horde of Guldan,Blackhand or even Doomhammer. This is the new Horde that Thrall built,where every race is equal. When Admiral Proudmoore attacked,Thrall didnt command the Tauren to aid them, he REQUESTED their aid.And Cairne at first denied and there was nothing Thrall could do about it, until Rexxar saved Baine.

[Deleted]

It is both Cairne's and Garrosh's fault.Garrosh made the Makgora till death,wich means even if Magatha didnt get involved it would still end up with one of them dead(almost surely Garrosh). And the duel ended with Garrosh slamming an axe down Cairne's shoulder. The whole thing was utter stupidity that could have been talked about if Cairne hadnt been quick to anger and if Garrosh was smart enough to string a few words together.At the end of the day , to an outsider like Voljin what does it look like.Cairne killed by Garrosh in a duel to the death. There is no logical way you could trust Garrosh at that point and you would confront him if u cared about the Horde. Not to mention Garrosh would be in fits of rage with anyone telling him he was wrong.

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Yes.Thats exactly what Garrosh thought. That he could shit on everyone just cuz he was "Warchief".Blood Oath and Titles doesnt mean shit if you dont know how to treat your people with respect.This is not the Horde of Guldan,Blackhand or even Doomhammer. This is the new Horde that Thrall built,where every race is equal. When Admiral Proudmoore attacked,Thrall didnt command the Tauren to aid them, he REQUESTED their aid.And Cairne at first denied and there was nothing Thrall could do about it, until Rexxar saved Baine.

And he was right. He did treat them with respect, hell he even honoured the Taurens by putting them by himself. true recognisition for their prowess. Blood Oath is Blood Oath and it means everything. Thrall did not build anything, he merely found a new spot for the orcs to suffer. Equality is nonsense spewed by naive and slow. Thrall's 'new horde' was a disgusting entity that depended on enemy's supplies, their very moods. Garrosh offered something far greater and better.

[Rathbourne]

And he was right. He did treat them with respect, hell he even honoured the Taurens by putting them by himself. true recognisition for their prowess. Blood Oath is Blood Oath and it means everything. Thrall did not build anything, he merely found a new spot for the orcs to suffer. Equality is nonsense spewed by naive and slow. Thrall's 'new horde' was a disgusting entity that depended on enemy's supplies, their very moods. Garrosh offered something far greater and better.

Garrosh offered them slavery or death.Thrall did built a new shamanistic Horde.You are almost trolling at this point.

[Deleted]

Garrosh offered them slavery or death.Thrall did built a new shamanistic Horde.You are almost trolling at this point.

Garrosh offered them future. Thrall made them suffer, starve and thirst. You are almost at 0% lore knowledge at this point.

[BiteytheVillain]

Vol'jin, at least in theory. We haven't got to see his leadership due to lazy writing.

Yeah this pretty much 100%.

[Zahlen]

Vol'jin, hands down. Why you ask? Which one of the two took the initiative into toppling Garrosh?

Sorry Sylvanas, first come first served.

I guarantee you Sylvanas would've initiated the war on Garrosh IF HE LITERALLY TRIED TO HAVE HER ASSASSINATED

OT: I voted Sylvanas.
Personally, I believe Sylvanas, as the former Ranger General of the High elves is far more qualified to LEAD the horde than Voljin. If anything, Voljin is an Advisor. something akin to what Saurfang/Eitrigg should've been to Garrosh.. you know... if he wasn't a phsyco. Sylvanas is the Tactician and Voljin is the Diplomat.

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Do you know what Garrosh did prior to Voljin confronting him ? He killed Cairne Bloodhoof. And if i have to tell you who Cairne was and what he meant to the Horde then there's no point arguing with you.

Last I checked, Cairne challenge Garrosh to a Mak'Gora and decided the rules himself. It's not Garrosh's fault that Magatha decided to become a traitor and use him to kill Cairne.

[Aquamonkey]

Last I checked, Cairne challenge Garrosh to a Mak'Gora and decided the rules himself. It's not Garrosh's fault that Magatha decided to become a traitor and use him to kill Cairne.

Cairne didn't make up the rules. Garrosh suggested it be a traditional mak'gora, which is to the death. The rules stated by Cairne are the other rules for traditional mak'gora, which Garrosh didn't know.

[Zahlen]

Cairne didn't make up the rules. Garrosh suggested it be a traditional mak'gora, which is to the death. The rules stated by Cairne are the other rules for traditional mak'gora, which Garrosh didn't know.

I said "decided" not "made up" u_u

[Aquamonkey]

I said "decided" not "made up" u_u

Didn't decide the rules either. Those are the rules dictated by a traditional mak'gora. Cairne merely explained them to Garrosh because he's an idiot orc who doesn't know his own culture.

[Zulkhan]

I'm frankly amazed that Orgrimmar hasn't been overrun by level 5 murlocs, given Vol'jin's track record.

Actually, following that track record we have a whole contingent of Naga spanked to death, included their undead and quite powerful leader.

I said "decided" not "made up" u_u

He didn't decide anything. He stated the rules of the very kind of Mak'gora Garrosh proposed. Cairne had to do that because, while Garrosh proposed a duel to the death, he was idiot enough to not be knowledgeable about the traditions of his own people.

[onesBronson]

I guarantee you Sylvanas would've initiated the war on Garrosh IF HE LITERALLY TRIED TO HAVE HER ASSASSINATED

Although that may be true, however it didn't happen to Sylvanas. It happened to Vol'jin and he took the initiative to retaliate as expected.

So again, first come first served.