Japan's growing poverty

[Independent voter]

Lot's of us on MMO-C are japanophiles, people intersted in all things Japanese. Found an interesting article about how poverty in Japan is growing because of all the economic problems there.

But the Japanese aren't experiencing all the problems that go along with poverty, crime, drugs, etc, like you would expect.

http://www.bloombergview.com/article...b-explanations



There are lots of preconceptions about poverty. On the right, a common idea is that poor people mainly have their own behavior to blame -- that if they worked more, committed less crime, had fewer out-of-wedlock births and did fewer drugs, the poverty rate would plummet. Meanwhile, many liberals blame poverty on free-market policies that have weakened unions and eliminated the corporate-welfare state.

Both of these stories sound plausible, and both may be important factors. But when I look at Japan, I see plenty of evidence that neither individual behavior nor free-market policy is the main reason for poverty. As in so many areas of economics, Japan confounds our conventional wisdom.

The stereotype of Japan as a low-poverty country isn't accurate. It’s true that Japan had relatively few poor people -- and was a very equal society -- as recently as the early 1980s. But since then, the national poverty rate has risen relentlessly

This rising poverty level fits with all the other negative economic trends coming out of Japan -- falling real wages, rising inequality and the rise of low-paid non-regular employment. It all adds up to one big truth: lots of people in Japan are not doing well economically.

The question is, why is this happening? If the bad-behavior explanation for poverty is correct, we would expect to see high crimes rates, a lot of unemployment and high rates of things like out-of-wedlock births and illegal drug use.

But we see none of those things.

[Deleted]

In before a few people say "its the white man's fault keeping them down and putting them in neighborhoods together to make sure they can't do better" blabla.

Anyway its probably because its looking at the US way of working to much so a lot of the money going to the rich while the poorest getting poorer.
Not a weird thing though seeing Tokyo is one of the biggest money hubs in the world.

[Narveid]

4% over more than 20 years is "risen relentlessly"? Sure, it's not good, but nowhere near as bad as you want to make it sound.

[turboether]

4% over more than 20 years is "risen relentlessly"? Sure, it's not good, but nowhere near as bad as you want to make it sound.

It's only 5 million people, no biggie.

[Narveid]

It's only 5 million people, no biggie.

Well, no. Just that 12% was an "equal society" according to him. I am merely pointing out the graph and the way he presents it make it sound like everything has gone to hell the last years.

[May90]

Has the poverty line changed in the meantime? I think it is important to not. Perhaps just the standards changed, and what used to be considered fine in the past now is considered poor?

[endersblade]

But we see none of those things.

That's because Japan has one thing the rest of the 'western' world lacks: Discipline. That bad-behavior explanation doesn't apply to Japan, because the Japanese culture revolves around honor and discipline, and of course pride. Just because they're poor doesn't mean they have to go out and ruin all of that for no reason.

I actually blame the US for this. Our influence on Japan has become detrimental. So much of their culture is getting undermined by western ideals, especially economically. The whole "we'll hire cheap labor and make millions" is a relatively new concept to Japan. On top of that, Foreigners moving to the country have, in general, more money than local Japanese, and so the markets the foreigners partake in can charge a lot more for things like housing, food, and entertainment. Locals can't compete.

[Cybran]

Your point? Japan should let uneducated Middle easterners like Europe? See how that turned out for Paris and Brussels.

[May90]

Your point? Japan should let uneducated Middle easterners like Europe? See how that turned out for Paris and Brussels.

Thanks for being on topic, as you always are. /s

[unbound]

Overall, it remains a general economics issue. The graph shown starts where the Japanese economic growth started to settle down as it become an economic power. After WWII, the Japanese economy had to be rebuilt, and it was growing rapidly for several decades. Starting in the mid-80s, it become a mature economy which means that job opportunities start going down.

Indeed the Japanese poverty rate is fairly close to the US rate (just under 15%).

It is probably easier to see how economic expansions are tied to the poverty rates if you look at the US poverty rates. The US had a solid economic expansion from about 1993 until 2000, and, sure enough, the overall poverty rate dropped from 15.1% at the start down to 11.3% at the end...then started climbing back up to settle around 12.5% until the crash of 2008 when it jumped over a couple of years back to 15.1% and has been steady at around 14.8% for the past few years.

Many economists have noted that the recovery from 2008 has been largely for corporations and not so much for employees...which is consistent with what we see in the poverty rate.

[OreoLover]

Curious about the context of that chart in terms of poverty, any changes in how it is noted, the bigger picture from before and after (ends 2009, gotta be 2+ missing iterations)

[Djuntas]

Your point? Japan should let uneducated Middle easterners like Europe? See how that turned out for Paris and Brussels.

They sure don't take anyone in anyway. Is it like...25 people a year that gets refugee/asylum in Japan. Sorry if Im wrong there, but think it was some extremely low number, that almost seems racist and wrong for such a big country.

Anywho one should more worry about the welfare of the people. They have what 2 days off in a month, and so on. Its like they are a country that is being exploited like China (We the west really milk cheap labour - Imagine if all country's played on even settings in terms of wages, hours etc)

[Deleted]

True, you may not have problems like crime increase but... Japan is one of the countries with most suicides, that must contribute somewhat.

[Khaza-R]

They sure don't take anyone in anyway. Is it like...25 people a year that gets refugee/asylum in Japan. Sorry if Im wrong there, but think it was some extremely low number, that almost seems racist and wrong for such a big country.

Anywho one should more worry about the welfare of the people. They have what 2 days off in a month, and so on. Its like they are a country that is being exploited like China (We the west really milk cheap labour - Imagine if all country's played on even settings in terms of wages, hours etc)

Different people in different parts of the world have different values. How shocking.

[Macaquerie]

That's because Japan has one thing the rest of the 'western' world lacks: Discipline. That bad-behavior explanation doesn't apply to Japan, because the Japanese culture revolves around honor and discipline, and of course pride. Just because they're poor doesn't mean they have to go out and ruin all of that for no reason.

I actually blame the US for this. Our influence on Japan has become detrimental. So much of their culture is getting undermined by western ideals, especially economically. The whole "we'll hire cheap labor and make millions" is a relatively new concept to Japan. On top of that, Foreigners moving to the country have, in general, more money than local Japanese, and so the markets the foreigners partake in can charge a lot more for things like housing, food, and entertainment. Locals can't compete.

Japan would never have developed into a nation of consequence without the US meddling in its affairs. All that talk about samurai honor and the Yamato spirit is all BS cooked up by WW2 propagandists, if they had never been subjected to Western influence, modern Japan would probably look less like Blade Runner and more like North Korea. During their bubble economy, the Japanese fully bought into the Western lifestyle of heavy debt, conspicuous consumption, and irrational exuberance that the good times would never end. They are still in many ways feeling the effects of the ensuing crash, and a combination of an aging population and rising competition from other Asian economies means that they will likely never again regain their standing in the world. Still though, some credit is due here - they probably managed the situation as well as could be hoped for and managed to maintain at least the image of stability and normalcy in the 25 odd years since.

[May90]

Anywho one should more worry about the welfare of the people. They have what 2 days off in a month, and so on. Its like they are a country that is being exploited like China (We the west really milk cheap labour - Imagine if all country's played on even settings in terms of wages, hours etc)

Actually, this is a common belief about Japan which doesn't turn out to be true. I've been in Japan a few times, talked to people... Most people there work, just like us, 5 days a week, and they also have a huge lot of national holidays when they have days off as well. Of course, there are also workaholics there, more of them than, pretty much, anywhere but South Korea - but they don't form a majority, from my understanding.

Their schools though... Now that is brutal. You can see kids going to school as early as at 5 AM, and going back home at 11 PM. Not sure how they survive that.

[Airlick]

Japan would never have developed into a nation of consequence without the US meddling in its affairs. All that talk about samurai honor and the Yamato spirit is all BS cooked up by WW2 propagandists, if they had never been subjected to Western influence, modern Japan would probably look less like Blade Runner and more like North Korea. During their bubble economy, the Japanese fully bought into the Western lifestyle of heavy debt, conspicuous consumption, and irrational exuberance that the good times would never end. They are still in many ways feeling the effects of the ensuing crash, and a combination of an aging population and rising competition from other Asian economies means that they will likely never again regain their standing in the world. Still though, some credit is due here - they probably managed the situation as well as could be hoped for and managed to maintain at least the image of stability and normalcy in the 25 odd years since.

It's not the first time it's happening in Japan. Read up on Genroku period, they didn't need the West's influence to ruin their country with consumptionism. Something roughly similar also happened even earlier and it gave rise to the samurai. Japan's history is a cycle of prosperity causing the population to grow to numbers the islands simply can't sustain. Then povertization combined with natural disasters (which always happen, but during the periods of prosperity they are not felt) leads to crises and wars, and all this combined results in a serious population drop. And then, as they rebuild, they move into a new period of prosperity.

Times change and there might not be a civil war in Japan this time, but the general principle will be there. Maybe the Japanese will start leaving en masse, same as, for example, the Irish at one point.

[Deleted]

many liberals blame poverty on free-market policies that have weakened unions and eliminated the corporate-welfare state.

This rising poverty level fits with all the other negative economic trends coming out of Japan -- falling real wages, rising inequality and the rise of low-paid non-regular employment. It all adds up to one big truth: lots of people in Japan are not doing well economically.

That's definetly why it's happening. People are being worked too hard. They don't get to live. They don't get to have lives, form families.

[Independent voter]

True, you may not have problems like crime increase but... Japan is one of the countries with most suicides, that must contribute somewhat.

The high suicide rate is cultural, if your honor or more importantly the honor of others is damaged and it's your fault, you can repair that damage by taking your own life. Failing out of school might mean nothing to you, but it embarrasses your family and you can fix that by taking your own life.

There might be a small correlation between the rise in poverty and suicide but there's always been a high suicide rate. I'd like to see some charts.

[Airlick]

That's definetly why it's happening. People are being worked too hard. They don't get to live. They don't get to have lives, form families.

The thing about Japan is that humans are its most valuable resource. How did Japan become world's second economy in 80s? It barely has any natural resources, so it couldn't bank on that as did pretty much all of the other richest countries in the world. What it did have is extremely hard-working and equally well educated people. As for not having lives - it's also a cultural thing, their whole philosophy revolves around individuals finding their place in society and mastering their trade. Work was and still is their life. But I imagine it was a lot easier to become a master potter than it is to become a master, say, banker in modern world. They are still trying, and that's why they don't have time for anything else. Arranged marriages and matchmaking is still a thing in Japan even today, exactly for these reasons, but in the past the young weren't influenced by the West as much. In our modern culture, it's fine to not get married. Older people might still keep bugging you about it, but there's no stigma. Young Japanese take from our culture and - to an extent - stop listening to their elders about such things. They stop letting others tell them how to live their lives.

So yeah, you shouldn't regard Japanese as you do westerners, we're not alike. Most westerners work simply to fund their hobbies, families etc. Sure, you might have a job you enjoy, but then don't you start treating it as a hobby that also happens to be paying your bills? The Japanese are different - their lives revolve around their work.