[SPOILER-ish] Isn't Legions plan... flawed?

[KrakHed]

I don't disagree with that. If Y'Shaarj who was reduced to just a heart (plus some tiny smaller parts corrupting Pandaria) was on the verge of being (partially?) revived, the other two with their corpses largely intact could always be brought back if Blizzard want it. They probably will come back in one way or another, although I'm not sure whether they'd be as important as they were before the introduction of the Void Lords. Maybe in a mass resurrection due to some kind of void energy cataclysm that acts as the beginning of the big invasion from the Void, or maybe by the end of Legion N'Zoth'd somehow end up absorbing other 2 (3?)'s essences and turn into a composite Old God.

Oh yes. I'm pretty sure they were actually going to do something with C'Thun in Cataclysm at one point, though that got cut, so I think Blizzard doesn't want them to be dead forever.

Now, N'Zoth eating the others... Well, that's certainly an idea, and a thematically appropriate one at that. We know the Old Gods warred with one another and that Void entities are more than willing to devour others of their kind, with this being shown as one of the only ways to make Old God minions stay dead. Xal'atath most certainly demonstrates this ability, as it drains Zakajz's corpse, so I don't doubt that N'Zoth could do it too.

Well, this get my vote! With the essences of all the other Gods consumed, he could probably claim their insectoid empires too.

[Deleted]

Oh, that's new to me. Thought we couldn't kill them without killing Azeroth. Time to get Chronicles then?

It was said we couldn't kill an Old God without destroying Azeroth, which is basically what happened in Pandaria - The Vale got corrupted etc.

[FelPlague]

At this point I'm going to assume you are trolling since you seems to be ignoring all official sources and keep sticking to headcanon.

again... no we have allways known we arnt actually killing them... look it up... as its stated time and time again, ACTUALLY killing the old gods would be even worse, as it would od what yasharajj did and leave behind a massive mess, like the well of eternity

[IgnisVenom]

again... no we have allways known we arnt actually killing them... look it up... as its stated time and time again, ACTUALLY killing the old gods would be even worse, as it would od what yasharajj did and leave behind a massive mess, like the well of eternity

yup you're trolling. Blizzard themselves said that Cataclysm was partially caused by the deaths of C'thun and Yogg'Saron.

[thilicen]

So, basically, we killed 3 Old Gods, and, we are most likely going to kill N'zoth in Legion, and that way we'll cure Azeroth of all Old Gods. If we are doing just that, then why would the Legion want to destroy us? They only go for Old God infected planets, and, we'll basically cure the planet from the corruption.

The Legion is going for total destruction, not just corrupted planets. There can't really be that many flaws in a plan that goes "Destroy everything" while the ultimate goal is "Everything destroyed"

[Destinas]

We have :P In Q&A panel of Blizzcon 2010, someone asked the same thing - why we haven't seen any calamity happened even with two of them down, and Metzen & Afrasiabi said they caused the Cataclysm as a result. Probably (especially given the pre-release event happening way before Deathwing bursted back to Azeroth) weakened the world too much to make Deathwing able to cause the Cataclysm.

A world shattering threat that took Thrall to focus all his mind together with other shamans / druids to heal the world is pretty serious, if you ask me.


We didn't fight them outside of their prison, though. We went into their prisons and killed them. They aren't imprisoned in a separate dimension like some fans liked to think. That argument might be valid if we fought them outside of their prisons (AQ / Ulduar), but alas, that wasn't the case.

Plus, as Aquamonkey said, the theory has always been that if we kill the Old Gods, Azeroth is doomed - as stated in the Tribunal of Ages (IIRC). However, even now, that is in question since Chronicle established that the Tribunal of Ages were created by Loken to hide his sin, and then further corrupted when he attempted to replace the original records. The guy asked about the theory, and specifically mentioned that the Old Gods "were dealt" with and "down" - that should be quite clear what he meant.

There were plenty of fanons earlier on about how powerful the Old Gods were, mainly due to the fact that there wasn't much official information about them. We only got some information from their followers that C'Thun defeated a Titan, or that they can't die and such. However, fanon is just fanon and Blizzard didn't choose to go that way (probably realized that it wouldn't make sense for us to kill one OG every other expansions if they were that powerful). In fact, Blizzard even "buffed" the Old Gods a bit in Chronicle, since pre-Chronicle, Y'Shaarj were supposed to be killed by the Mogu and Ra-den - both were defeated by us.

Except, Deathwing did cause the Cataclysm, with the help of the Old Gods, Twilight's Hammer, and Elemental Lords. Much of the damage was caused personally by Deathwing, as shown directly in the cinematic trailer for Cataclysm itself. He was the Earthwarder, and still seems to have power over the earth. As he thrashes and screams, the land heaves and cracks in the Barrens, and waves crash into Booty Bay and Thousand Needles. This would explain the earthquakes in the weeks before the Shattering itself, since it's stated and shown that he had elementium plates put on in the Stonecore to replace his adamantium ones. You can also see there that by him simply flying over things they're breaking apart, such as Auberdine and the damn in Loch Modan. Not to mention, Deathwing was hinted at being in the earth somewhere (presumably near Grim Batol) at the end of Night of the Dragon. The World Pillar in Deepholm was shattered, remember, and that nearly caused Azeroth to collide with Deepholm - all due to Deathwing. That made Azeroth very unstable, and it was stated that the shattering of the World Pillar contributed to the Cataclysm as well in a few quests within Deepholm.

Furthermore, we see his influence during quests in Cataclysm. In Kezan, as he flies over Mount Kajaro during the quest Fourth and Goal it starts to explode as he yells about the Hour of Twilight coming. This later sinks the island. The Scar of the Worldbreaker in the Badlands was made directly by him (however, there are tall tales told about his actual departure from the zone). The scar also leads into a large burnt area between Stormwind's land and Khaz Modan, presumably when he flew over (also shown in the cinematic). We do see many other influences in the quests (Old Gods, Twilight's Hammer), but many NPCs state that much of the destruction happened with Deathwing.

He seemed to help cause Elemental Lords to cause more damage, such as Ragnaros' eruption into Mount Hyjal, and some damage to Uldum with his alliance with Al'Akir. He also worked with plenty of other elementals to damage Azeroth (even transporting them from Mount Hyjal to Blackrock Mountain via Blackrock Caverns, which he carved himself - you can see the claw marks at the end of the dungeon). Places like Thunder Peak were definitely done by elementals during the Cataclysm, but in many zones we see that they are doing this due to the Twilight's Hammer, who is working to bring the end of the world through Deathwing and the Old Gods.

Now, that isn't to say the Old Gods aren't involved themselves. We see their influence in plenty of places like Stonetalon Peak, the Undershell under L'Ghorek, Lake Falathim, Stagalbog Cave, The Lost Isles, much of Twilight Highlands, and much of the Dragon Soul raid (among others). However, I don't think the death of C'Thun and Yogg-Saron had much to do with the Cataclysm themselves, due to what we see in the expansion and what we're told by various NPCs. It's entirely likely that Yogg's death spurred on Deathwing and the Twilight's Hammer even more, but the Cataclysm wasn't the direct result of Yogg's death. We see plans of the Twilight's Hammer and Black Dragonflight even before Yogg died in Northrend, making plans for the Twilight Dragonflight, converting people in Ahn'kahet, and generally helping Yogg escape his prison. Not to mention, the Emerald Nightmare kind of exploded into reality due to N'Zoth and Xavius right before the Elemental Invasion as well. N'Zoth was also mentioned as the one "paying Deathwing's checks" during the expansion - he was also mentioned quite a bit in Dragon Soul.

I always interpreted the statements at Blizzcon where they say the Cataclysm was "because of the Old Gods" because...it is. By extension. They corrupted Deathwing. They drove him crazy, and used his powers against the very world he was sworn to protect. Considering that even if an Old God is dead, it still can communicate and control things, it seems that the Old Gods were still whispering to Deathwing until his last breath.

Speaking of his last breath, he literally says:

I AM DEATHWING! THE DESTROYER! THE END OF ALL THINGS! INEVITABLE! INDOMITABLE! I AM THE CATACLYSM!

[Qualia]

(Long post)

No one said Deathwing wasn't the main actor of the Cataclysm so I'm not sure what was the point of your post.

What I (or to be exact, Blizzard - Metzen and Afrasiabi) said was that the Old Gods' deaths caused the Cataclysm. They didn't elaborate on how that happened - although they DID double confirm it when the questioner asked again "Because of the Old Gods???" (answered with "Right") so we can be sure that there wasn't any misunderstanding. A guess would be that their deaths weakened Azeroth enough for Deathwing to be able to cause all he did. In fact, if you checked, there was the elemental unrest event and the earth were shaking way BEFORE Deathwing was even back to Azeroth, when he was still in Deepholm, which is another dimension altogether. Sure, he did all you listed after he returned to Azeroth, no one is saying that wasn't true. That doesn't mean the Old Gods' death didn't help allowing him to do all that.

It's a fact that when someone asked why we haven't seen any calamity with two (Old Gods) down, M & A answered with "Have you played any Cataclysm? You know, when the world blows up? Because of the Old Gods". Thus, until Blizzard say something contradicts to it, it is canon.

[Destinas]

No one said Deathwing wasn't the main actor of the Cataclysm so I'm not sure what was the point of your post.

What I (or to be exact, Blizzard - Metzen and Afrasiabi) said was that the Old Gods' deaths caused the Cataclysm. They didn't elaborate on how that happened - although they DID double confirm it when the questioner asked again "Because of the Old Gods???" (answered with "Right") so we can be sure that there wasn't any misunderstanding. A guess would be that their deaths weakened Azeroth enough for Deathwing to be able to cause all he did. In fact, if you checked, there was the elemental unrest event and the earth were shaking way BEFORE Deathwing was even back to Azeroth, when he was still in Deepholm, which is another dimension altogether. Sure, he did all you listed after he returned to Azeroth, no one is saying that wasn't true. That doesn't mean the Old Gods' death didn't help allowing him to do all that.

As I pointed out, he was the Earthwarder, in the elemental plane of earth, which was connected to Azeroth. As I also pointed out, you can see his movements shaking/breaking Azeroth while he was in Deepholm in the cinematic. Yes, all of that was before he burst through, during the Elemental Unrest. It's also literally stated in Deepholm that Azeroth was weakened due to the World Pillar shattering when Deathwing flew through to Azeroth.

The point of my post is that they said the Cataclysm was "because of" the Old Gods, and plenty of people are saying it wasn't because of Deathwing. The Old gods are majorly responsible, but Deathwing was the more direct cause before, during, and after his take-off from Deepholm. Besides, the entire ordeal is called the "Cataclysm" - including his destruction after he emerged from Deepholm. The actual act of him exiting the elemental plane is simply called the "Shattering" in most cases.

[Qualia]

The point of my post is that they said the Cataclysm was "because of" the Old Gods, and plenty of people are saying it wasn't because of Deathwing. The Old gods are majorly responsible, but Deathwing was the more direct cause before, during, and after his take-off from Deepholm. Besides, the entire ordeal is called the "Cataclysm" - including his destruction after he emerged from Deepholm. The actual act of him exiting the elemental plane is simply called the "Shattering" in most cases.

I don't think anyone said it wasn't because of Deathwing. What people said that it was because of the Old Gods. That doesn't mean it wasn't because of Deathwing as well, just that the Old Gods (C'Thun / Yogg)' deaths also play a part in it. Although, it's very arguable whether the earthshaking in the Elemental Unrest event and the cinematic was because of Deathwing and not because of the Old Gods. Still, what their deaths caused wasn't elaborated, so we can only speculate.

[FelPlague]

yup you're trolling. Blizzard themselves said that Cataclysm was partially caused by the deaths of C'thun and Yogg'Saron.

100% false, the cataclysm was caused by nzoth waking deathwing, and him being ready to rule the world

- - - Updated - - -

also is there really still a debate? the chronicals litterally says "killing the old gods was a bad idea as they have dug so deep, killing them would mean the end of azeroth, so they weakend them and imprisoned them, what we kill ingame is just the tip of the iceburg, we see ingame the fully body of the old gods are as big as cities, where these manifestations we kill are only the size of a house

[Deleted]

Didn't we in Yogg-Sarons Case just killed his metaphorical brain?

[Friendlyimmolation]

100% false, the cataclysm was caused by nzoth waking deathwing, and him being ready to rule the world

- - - Updated - - -

also is there really still a debate? the chronicals litterally says "killing the old gods was a bad idea as they have dug so deep, killing them would mean the end of azeroth, so they weakend them and imprisoned them, what we kill ingame is just the tip of the iceburg, we see ingame the fully body of the old gods are as big as cities, where these manifestations we kill are only the size of a house

lol, they said in an ask panel that the deaths of the old gods caused thee cataclysm

[Deleted]

lol, they said in an ask panel that the deaths of the old gods caused thee cataclysm

I thought that was this burning metal Dragon that errupted from the earth with a sea of fire behind him.

[FelPlague]

lol, they said in an ask panel that the deaths of the old gods caused thee cataclysm

yeah no... when they said "old god" they were talking about nzoth.. .cause nzoth is the one who made him insane, and we have known this since then

[Deleted]

You know, Yogg-Sarons Brain looked more like a metaphorical brain than a actual brain.

[Aquamonkey]

also is there really still a debate? the chronicals litterally says "killing the old gods was a bad idea as they have dug so deep, killing them would mean the end of azeroth, so they weakend them and imprisoned them, what we kill ingame is just the tip of the iceburg, we see ingame the fully body of the old gods are as big as cities, where these manifestations we kill are only the size of a house

No. It doesn't. Perhaps you should carefully look at what Chronicle actually says before throwing out "literally" and quotation marks. Chronicle made it very clear that the damaging part was HOW the titans killed Y'Shaarj. Aman'Thul reached down and ripped it out of the ground. Such a forceful action tore open a massive wound in the world where Azeroth's arcane lifeblood bled out.

Aman'Thul himself reached down through Azeroth's stormy skies and took hold of Y'Shaarj's writhing body. With a heave of his mighty arm, he tore the Old God from the crust of the world. In that moment, Y'Shaarj's gargantuan bulk was ripped apart. The immensity of the Old God's death rattle shattered mountaintops and obliterated hundreds of titan-forged where they stood.
Y'Shaarj was dead, but its tendrils had bore more deeply through Azeroth than Aman'Thul had ever imagined. In excising the Old God from the world, he had inadvertently ripped an eternal wound in Azeroth's surface. Volatile arcane energies—the lifeblood of the nascent titan—erupted from the scar and roiled out across the world.
Horrified by this turn of events, the Pantheon realized they could not risk killing the other Old Gods in such a manner. The malignant creatures had embedded themselves so deep into the world that tearing them out would destroy Azeroth itself.
--Chronicle

Just killing them in place would have nothing near as damaging an effect. Yes, the OGs will corrupt the land around them when they die as Yogg states, but this is not the same as ripping a huge chunk out of Azeroth.

C'Thun was fully awake and free.

Worse, C'Thun has awakened, freed itself, and reemerged from the planet's depths. (WC Encyclopedia)

We did kill C'Thun. This is stated in the quest, "Even in death you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you." and in the comics. The plot of the comics was Cho'gall trying to resurrect it.

Yogg had broken through all but the last of its restraints.

This ancient horror has corrupted its guards, and now it is breaking through the last of its restraints. Faced with the peril of Yogg-Saron's imminent freedom, a band of mortals has made preparations for a sweeping assault on the city. (Game Guide)

We killed Yogg as well. Yogg says it's gonna die and is salty about it. "Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."

[FelPlague]

No. It doesn't. Perhaps you should carefully look at what Chronicle actually says before throwing out "literally" and quotation marks. Chronicle made it very clear that the damaging part was HOW the titans killed Y'Shaarj. Aman'Thul reached down and ripped it out of the ground. Such a forceful action tore open a massive wound in the world where Azeroth's arcane lifeblood bled out.

Aman'Thul himself reached down through Azeroth's stormy skies and took hold of Y'Shaarj's writhing body. With a heave of his mighty arm, he tore the Old God from the crust of the world. In that moment, Y'Shaarj's gargantuan bulk was ripped apart. The immensity of the Old God's death rattle shattered mountaintops and obliterated hundreds of titan-forged where they stood.
Y'Shaarj was dead, but its tendrils had bore more deeply through Azeroth than Aman'Thul had ever imagined. In excising the Old God from the world, he had inadvertently ripped an eternal wound in Azeroth's surface. Volatile arcane energies—the lifeblood of the nascent titan—erupted from the scar and roiled out across the world.
Horrified by this turn of events, the Pantheon realized they could not risk killing the other Old Gods in such a manner. The malignant creatures had embedded themselves so deep into the world that tearing them out would destroy Azeroth itself.
--Chronicle

Just killing them in place would have nothing near as damaging an effect. Yes, the OGs will corrupt the land around them when they die as Yogg states, but this is not the same as ripping a huge chunk out of Azeroth.

C'Thun was fully awake and free.

Worse, C'Thun has awakened, freed itself, and reemerged from the planet's depths. (WC Encyclopedia)

We did kill C'Thun. This is stated in the quest, "Even in death you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you." and in the comics. The plot of the comics was Cho'gall trying to resurrect it.

Yogg had broken through all but the last of its restraints.

This ancient horror has corrupted its guards, and now it is breaking through the last of its restraints. Faced with the peril of Yogg-Saron's imminent freedom, a band of mortals has made preparations for a sweeping assault on the city. (Game Guide)

We killed Yogg as well. Yogg says it's gonna die and is salty about it. "Your fate is sealed. The end of days is finally upon you and ALL who inhabit this miserable little seedling. The shadow of my corpse will choke this land for all eternity."

looking into it is a issue though, we have tons of stuff saying we dont, aswell as stuff saying we do... the same sorta "twisting nether over all timelines" issue as it does solve some things but makes even more issues

cause i will look where but it was said that in yash's death he blew his last breath, cursing the land of pandaria with the sha, and is said it is very bad to kill them fully, and later they said as cthun and yog did no "curse" upon death that they were not dead, and that nzoth was the only old god fully manifested and no longer imprisoned as his was ripped apart by the sundering

again we will have to see, there is alot of old lore and some new lore saying killing them is a bad thing, well also saying its fine whateves, like even after yash was ripped from the planet and crushed... his heart still lived... enough for garrosh to revive it, then drink its juices and become mega garrosh....

[Aquamonkey]

looking into it is a issue though, we have tons of stuff saying we dont, aswell as stuff saying we do... the same sorta "twisting nether over all timelines" issue as it does solve some things but makes even more issues

There isn't really any issue. Nothing says we didn't kill them. The only thing that possibly hints at that is the fanatical rantings of their followers saying they are "beyond the cycle," which is demonstrably false.

cause i will look where but it was said that in yash's death he blew his last breath, cursing the land of pandaria with the sha,

Yes, this was stated in MoP and is mostly the same in Chronicle.

and is said it is very bad to kill them fully, and later they said as cthun and yog did no "curse" upon death that they were not dead,

This was said in the Tribunal of Ages which had it records tampered with by Loken. Yogg says its corpse will curse the land. Metzen and Afrasiabi's response is that the Cataclysm is the result of us punking down Old Gods. If you're asking about why Northrend didn't change to reflect a direct consequence... that's just how the game works. Lots of regions don't change to reflect the outcomes of our actions.

and that nzoth was the only old god fully manifested and no longer imprisoned as his was ripped apart by the sundering

Where was this stated?

again we will have to see, there is alot of old lore and some new lore saying killing them is a bad thing, well also saying its fine whateves, like even after yash was ripped from the planet and crushed... his heart still lived... enough for garrosh to revive it, then drink its juices and become mega garrosh....

Y'Shaarj died. Only its heart was brought back to life and then that got drained into a withered husk.

But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead. (Source)

Garrosh brings heart of Y'shaarj back to life using the pools of Pandaria. Fortunately, the whole God isn't resurrected. (DaveKosak)

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

[JTHMRulez1]

With the Void Lords as main villain, how could Blizz explain that the Shadow Priests are on our side? After all, Faith in the Shadow is their religion.

Someone doesn't understeand the Shadow Priest ideology.

[Deleted]

What I (or to be exact, Blizzard - Metzen and Afrasiabi) said was that the Old Gods' deaths caused the Cataclysm. They didn't elaborate on how that happened - although they DID double confirm it when the questioner asked again "Because of the Old Gods???" (answered with "Right") so we can be sure that there wasn't any misunderstanding. A guess would be that their deaths weakened Azeroth enough for Deathwing to be able to cause all he did. In fact, if you checked, there was the elemental unrest event and the earth were shaking way BEFORE Deathwing was even back to Azeroth, when he was still in Deepholm, which is another dimension altogether. Sure, he did all you listed after he returned to Azeroth, no one is saying that wasn't true. That doesn't mean the Old Gods' death didn't help allowing him to do all that.

It's a fact that when someone asked why we haven't seen any calamity with two (Old Gods) down, M & A answered with "Have you played any Cataclysm? You know, when the world blows up? Because of the Old Gods". Thus, until Blizzard say something contradicts to it, it is canon.

That's a literally interpretation of their words. Though it can also meaning "the death of the Old Gods forced N'zoth and Deathwing to speed up their plans and then causing the Cataclysm". This is supported by the ingame rampage of Deathwing and the fact that the Xavius' Nightmare War happened just before the Cataclysm.