950m sufficient for 50 FPS on Ultra?

[Artorius]

Like I said before:

Unless your storage device is making your CPU load increase when seeking, which it shouldn't, there's no reason for it to cause any performance difference.

It isn't the same thing for all HDs, some will really make your CPU to go 10~20% usage when reading a large file but other ones won't. It depends on the disk controller.

If the CPU usage is going up because of the HD, then yes you should expect a slight performance decrease.

[Evildeffy]

Like I said before:

It isn't the same thing for all HDs, some will really make your CPU to go 10~20% usage when reading a large file but other ones won't. It depends on the disk controller.

If the CPU usage is going up because of the HD, then yes you should expect a slight performance decrease.

This is true on all platforms regardless of controller as all need commands given to them... this is why NCQ exists today.
But anything you do on your HDD will still require CPU cycles.

Any command issued will consume CPU cycles but it's not just about reading the file, the order is on a basis I have stated prior.
The reason why I said for you to try disconnecting it is because WoW is a game of continuous "local streaming" meaning the files are always being accessed for whatever reason, it just has to find, process and load the file you need.
This gets inherently more active with a massive viewing distance so it's not just finding the file that causes CPU cycles affecting things.

It's on-demand access which causes it as everything has to be processed and shown.
Your example deals with a game that can reduce that when it knows what to expect and load prior to encountering it.
WoW does not and cannot do as such as it's not a pre-emptive game but reactive.

Controller in this case has nothing to do with the process it takes to show it on the screen as it still requires the same computational power to show it.
The very bottleneck of WoW's mythic raiding scene and FPS, it just gets made clearer on a HDD then an SSD.

[Artorius]

This is true on all platforms regardless of controller as all need commands given to them... this is why NCQ exists today.
But anything you do on your HDD will still require CPU cycles.

It requires CPU cycles but they don't all work the same way.

Any command issued will consume CPU cycles but it's not just about reading the file, the order is on a basis I have stated prior.
The reason why I said for you to try disconnecting it is because WoW is a game of continuous "local streaming" meaning the files are always being accessed for whatever reason, it just has to find, process and load the file you need.
This gets inherently more active with a massive viewing distance so it's not just finding the file that causes CPU cycles affecting things.

Yes but after a while you'll have most things that you need cached and it doesn't really matter anymore that much. Like I said before as well, it does matter at the very first load since it'll have to read the entire file from the disk and process it. After it, as long as you don't need it for a long time (then you'll have to load again), the loading time of things is severely reduced since you actually have RAM.

It's on-demand access which causes it as everything has to be processed and shown.

Of course it is, you normally can't throw that 30gb game at RAM. Loading everything once would not only be impractical but would take forever.
You can, however, install WoW at a RAMDisk for absurd performance if you have enough RAM.

Your example deals with a game that can reduce that when it knows what to expect and load prior to encountering it.
WoW does not and cannot do as such as it's not a pre-emptive game but reactive.

No no, WoW really doesn't show what it's not loaded. It remains invisible until it's loaded.
You can test this with an old drive or something, log-in at SW and you'll be at a ghost city for some seconds then you'll probably have a FPS spike and everything will start to appear slowly.

Controller in this case has nothing to do with the process it takes to show it on the screen as it still requires the same computational power to show it.
The very bottleneck of WoW's mythic raiding scene and FPS, it just gets made clearer on a HDD then an SSD.

Some controllers will act more efficiently decreasing the CPU load because of the drive, ideally speaking you should expect <1% CPU load because of a HD. The extra overhead comes from processing the information and feeding it to the graphic's card.

Theoretically speaking it shouldn't really make any meaningful difference even if WoW is horribly threaded and doesn't know how to offload those kinds of things to a third thread. But even then, no real way to test it. Game is too random and unpredictable to make any meaningful benchmark at cities.

[Evildeffy]

It requires CPU cycles but they don't all work the same way.

Ah but all primary functions, such as on-demand retrieval are universal.
The only difference is on-drive intelligent caching.. otherwise standardized specs for data transfer and connectivity would not exist today.

Yes but after a while you'll have most things that you need cached and it doesn't really matter anymore that much. Like I said before as well, it does matter at the very first load since it'll have to read the entire file from the disk and process it. After it, as long as you don't need it for a long time (then you'll have to load again), the loading time of things is severely reduced since you actually have RAM.

If everyone looked the same and all graphics were the same you'd be mostly correct.
As I stated WoW is a reactive system, it first processes and THEN loads the base model then processes and loads the model on top.
It does this for every piece of gear and it does so with a limit and when you log into a city or something with a lot of people and/or phasing this limit will be exceeded and then re-used.
If you would like to test this you can try logging in as a Worgen in your Garrison f.ex. and then fly(or teleport) to Ashran and then teleport back to your garrison, you will see (if your PC is fast enough) that your character will appear human first with your original pre-transmogged gear then it will switch the gear to transmogged variant and then your model to Worgen.
Whilst WoW has a 64-bit client it still imposes a limit on how much can be used and as most people's gear is unique and tagged as such it will force load it.

Of course it is, you normally can't throw that 30gb game at RAM. Loading everything once would not only be impractical but would take forever.
You can, however, install WoW at a RAMDisk for absurd performance if you have enough RAM.

Ah but as I stated due to the reactivity of the game rather than pre-emptivity (is that even a word?) it doesn't hold everything into RAM, it will buffer some but not as much as you think.
As far as RAMDISK goes... X79/X99 SYSTEMS WITH 64 - 128GB RAM FTW! (if I were to tell you what's next to me you'd probably cry..)

No no, WoW really doesn't show what it's not loaded. It remains invisible until it's loaded.
You can test this with an old drive or something, log-in at SW and you'll be at a ghost city for some seconds then you'll probably have a FPS spike and everything will start to appear slowly.

I know it doesn't show it till it's fully loaded but it still has to process it BEFORE it's visibly shown.
Again this was the reason why people exploited f.ex. Battlegrounds in the past as it used to be that it wasn't processed until it was loaded, this meant if you purposely picked the slowest possible HDD you could literally just walk past the gates in f.ex. Arathi Basin.
To counter this they changed it so everything is processed and loaded BEFORE it's shown.
WoW remains a reactive game and not pre-emptive as everything and everyone has a unique ID to them and their gear.

Some controllers will act more efficiently decreasing the CPU load because of the drive, ideally speaking you should expect <1% CPU load because of a HD. The extra overhead comes from processing the information and feeding it to the graphic's card.

Theoretically speaking it shouldn't really make any meaningful difference even if WoW is horribly threaded and doesn't know how to offload those kinds of things to a third thread. But even then, no real way to test it. Game is too random and unpredictable to make any meaningful benchmark at cities.

As I stated before, the function of HDDs is identical and commands are processed identically as that's what the standards require.
The only difference is HDD caching, it will still require CPU cycles across everything regardless of how tells it to function.. the OS is always in charge.

This occurring is easy to prove between HDD and SSD, it will not have any meaningful impact on continuous performance but it WILL spike.
Hence why SSDs don't "just" improve loading times, it's also transitioning from A to B.

Remember that even the Western Digital VelociRaptors require about 7ms (at best) to switch heads to different files (including the sub contents of files) and load it and since every character is unique and requires different sets and pieces to be loaded along with the model it is exacerbated by the slow heads of a HDD.
An SSD does this in under 0,01 ms, a speed that even for a computer is hard to measure.

The bottom line however of all this is as follows for the OP:
If you CAN get the 960m .. get that, if not the 950m WILL work, an SSD is nice to have and will offer a smoother performance but not better performance.
If you want performance and can live with a bit of spiking until everything is loaded go with the HDD and TRY to get the 960m for it.

However do realize that you also may want to wait for what Polaris 11 can do for you in the laptop area.
Polaris 11 WILL be used for mobile chips and may challenge nVidia again in that market where currently they are almost non-existant.
nVidia hasn't even announced any plans for them so it is unlikely they will do anything with it soon.

If you cannot wait then go with the 960m if you possibly can but be aware that a laptop's performance is always stagnant.

[Artorius]

Ah but all primary functions, such as on-demand retrieval are universal.
The only difference is on-drive intelligent caching.. otherwise standardized specs for data transfer and connectivity would not exist today.

The difference is how fast it can react, seek and load, and then give the answer back. If the controller is efficient it'll do things fast enough and the CPU won't go crazy waiting for it or asking it again.

That's exactly why most of the game's process run at a single thread, if they paralyzed it then it starts to get inconsistent and sometimes the CPU would have to wait for thread X to complete its task while thread Y did it faster and this would just create a mess. What if Windows decides to throw a Windows Update thing at the same core of one of your WoW's threads? The other ones would have to wait for it to finish since it would finish things later.

Different controllers do use the same standard otherwise they wouldn't work, but they also react differently. Some are faster some aren't, some prioritize different things when they're I/O capped. Well whatever, not really something that should make any noticeable difference nowadays.

If everyone looked the same and all graphics were the same you'd be mostly correct.

We're talking about a single raid team, people do look the same for the entirety of the raid.

As I stated WoW is a reactive system, it first processes and THEN loads the base model then processes and loads the model on top.
It does this for every piece of gear and it does so with a limit and when you log into a city or something with a lot of people and/or phasing this limit will be exceeded and then re-used.

Of course it does I just told you that it can't load everything once, put at RAM and be happy with it.

If you would like to test this you can try logging in as a Worgen in your Garrison f.ex. and then fly(or teleport) to Ashran and then teleport back to your garrison, you will see (if your PC is fast enough) that your character will appear human first with your original pre-transmogged gear then it will switch the gear to transmogged variant and then your model to Worgen.

It technically should only show you after your gear is loaded, or show your model naked until it's loaded but I don't really remember how it was.

Whilst WoW has a 64-bit client it still imposes a limit on how much can be used and as most people's gear is unique and tagged as such it will force load it.
Ah but as I stated due to the reactivity of the game rather than pre-emptivity (is that even a word?) it doesn't hold everything into RAM, it will buffer some but not as much as you think.

No it's not a word. And again, we're talking about a single raid team.

As far as RAMDISK goes... X79/X99 SYSTEMS WITH 64 - 128GB RAM FTW! (if I were to tell you what's next to me you'd probably cry..)

Funniest thing to do with a lot of ram is RAMDisks, they're hilariously fast.

I know it doesn't show it till it's fully loaded but it still has to process it BEFORE it's visibly shown.

Deffy... Of course it has to process it before showing it. Your graphic's card can't draw something that your computer isn't asking it to.

Again this was the reason why people exploited f.ex. Battlegrounds in the past as it used to be that it wasn't processed until it was loaded, this meant if you purposely picked the slowest possible HDD you could literally just walk past the gates in f.ex. Arathi Basin.

This is fixed with invisible walls now. But yeah you could do it.

To counter this they changed it so everything is processed and loaded BEFORE it's shown.
WoW remains a reactive game and not pre-emptive as everything and everyone has a unique ID to them and their gear.

It always had to load and process before showing it. The same way your video renderer can't render anything if you don't decode it first with a decoder.

This occurring is easy to prove between HDD and SSD, it will not have any meaningful impact on continuous performance but it WILL spike.
Hence why SSDs don't "just" improve loading times, it's also transitioning from A to B.

I also said this before, if you're logging in for the first time at a super crowded area with a slow drive then you'll probably appear at a ghost city, wait 3~5s and then the game will spike for a moment and things will appear.


And honestly, just wait for Polaris OP. Put your game at the lowest settings possible if it's really that bad currently.

[Evildeffy]

The difference is how fast it can react, seek and load, and then give the answer back. If the controller is efficient it'll do things fast enough and the CPU won't go crazy waiting for it or asking it again.

That's exactly why most of the game's process run at a single thread, if they paralyzed it then it starts to get inconsistent and sometimes the CPU would have to wait for thread X to complete its task while thread Y did it faster and this would just create a mess. What if Windows decides to throw a Windows Update thing at the same core of one of your WoW's threads? The other ones would have to wait for it to finish since it would finish things later.

Different controllers do use the same standard otherwise they wouldn't work, but they also react differently. Some are faster some aren't, some prioritize different things when they're I/O capped. Well whatever, not really something that should make any noticeable difference nowadays.

The controller doesn't control the speed of the head, the head itself does depending upon it's rotor design and accuracy, the controller is ALWAYS faster than the head.. this is not due to controller overload but simple head speed.
The controller in a mechanical HDD was never a bottleneck, it was always the physical media itself with it's design.
You have SSHDs which work with intelligent caching but that's a different mess.

We're talking about a single raid team, people do look the same for the entirety of the raid.

Actually the OP is asking about LFR and PvP and open world stuff so... yeah (in his first post).

Of course it does I just told you that it can't load everything once, put at RAM and be happy with it.

I'm confused ... are you arguing for or against me in this case? Because this is the reason for said stuttering/activity.

It technically should only show you after your gear is loaded, or show your model naked until it's loaded but I don't really remember how it was.

I just told you how it works, I still play and raid and can tell you that's how it works as I encounter it every day.
It loads models in sequences, base first and addendums on top .. which is why I took the Worgen example as it's a unique race/character design.

No it's not a word. And again, we're talking about a single raid team.

In raids it's less likely to occur yes, doesn't prevent it though.
And we're talking PvP, LFR and open world as the OP stated in his first post.

Funniest thing to do with a lot of ram is RAMDisks, they're hilariously fast.

If I told you that I have a 4960X with a Rampage IV Black Edition and 64GB of DDR3 RAM here sitting next to me doing nothing for the last half year, because I CBA reinstalling Windows, how would you react?

Deffy... Of course it has to process it before showing it. Your graphic's card can't draw something that your computer isn't asking it to.

Ah but your computer is actually asking you to draw it but it waits until it gets confirmation it's finished loading and only then shows, adds another step to the driver process but done to try and maintain as little visual disruption as possible.

This is fixed with invisible walls now. But yeah you could do it.

The point was to explain how it happened and why.

It always had to load and process before showing it. The same way your video renderer can't render anything if you don't decode it first with a decoder.

Ah but in WoW it didn't actually manifest with it's "limits" until it was loaded, that's the example up above why they changed it.

I also said this before, if you're logging in for the first time at a super crowded area with a slow drive then you'll probably appear at a ghost city, wait 3~5s and then the game will spike for a moment and things will appear.

And honestly, just wait for Polaris OP. Put your game at the lowest settings possible if it's really that bad currently.

It'll be more than just 3 - 5 seconds, it requires quite a bit of processing power especially with a dynamic environment.
If I CBA I'll happily demonstrate it for you because I only run an SSD and all my HDDs are either WD Black or WD RE2 (enterprise edition of Black) but I'm a lazy bastard and would like to slack off... unless of course you offered me a job.. I'd accept that and work as your slave.

[Artorius]

Actually the OP is asking about LFR and PvP and open world stuff so... yeah (in his first post).

\/

But I think an SSD is very useful for my laptop in general. In WoW as well, because I haaate if we wipe in a dungeon or raid and my loading screen takes longer than everybody else's an SSD, if WoW is installed on it, should help with that, correct?

I'm confused ... are you arguing for or against me in this case? Because this is the reason for said stuttering/activity.

I'm not even arguing, you're the only one doing it.

I just told you how it works, I still play and raid and can tell you that's how it works as I encounter it every day.
It loads models in sequences, base first and addendums on top .. which is why I took the Worgen example as it's a unique race/character design.

Never really had a worgen but I'm pretty sure that I've never seen my characters without their mogs. They were always naked or missing parts when not showing correctly for some reason. Probably just another case of WoW randomness.

In raids it's less likely to occur yes, doesn't prevent it though.

It's not really going to be a problem, raid respawns load fast enough even at HDs. I've raided for years and years with the game at a HD.

And we're talking PvP, LFR and open world as the OP stated in his first post.

No, you are. I'm talking about raid and dungeons which are both situations that the extra loading time actually bothers OP since his raid/group waits for him. Reloads at BGs and LFR are equally as fast if not even faster.

If I told you that I have a 4960X with a Rampage IV Black Edition and 64GB of DDR3 RAM here sitting next to me doing nothing for the last half year, because I CBA reinstalling Windows, how would you react?

If I had one here I also wouldn't really do anything exotic with it either... Wish I had time to, but I really don't.
And even if I had, gaming in general lost the entertainment factor for me for most games. The ones that I actually find funny to play and have a good time doing so could probably run at my cellphone.

Ah but your computer is actually asking you to draw it but it waits until it gets confirmation it's finished loading and only then shows, adds another step to the driver process but done to try and maintain as little visual disruption as possible.

The information goes from your disk, then get processed by your CPU and delivered to your card's VRAM telling it to draw it. The system doesn't tell your GPU to draw something that it doesn't know what it is, it first needs to "decode" the information and only then ask for it.

It'll be more than just 3 - 5 seconds, it requires quite a bit of processing power especially with a dynamic environment.

Nah, it takes 3~5 to spike like crazy and make most things appear. The rest start to appear in batches periodically for another ~5s but without any noticeable spikes. Or at least it did when I used to play it in 2014. WoW is just too random to make any conclusions, it simply does things differently and you'll never really be able to tell why.

I remember spending a lot of time (read it like... 20s at most) at a ghost city before things started to appear when running the game at a ridiculously shit laptop. Which probably had a very bad 5400RPM HD. But at the Samsung ones here that I use for junk (well they're 8 years old...), it never really took more than 3~5s.

If I CBA I'll happily demonstrate it for you because I only run an SSD and all my HDDs are either WD Black or WD RE2 (enterprise edition of Black) but I'm a lazy bastard and would like to slack off... unless of course you offered me a job.. I'd accept that and work as your slave.

I wish I actually cared about how WoW respond to things, but sadly I don't. Things are supposed to change for the better soon enough, D3D12 or Vulkan both can give WoW the fix that it always needed. And to be honest it doesn't matter, game is made to run even at graphing calculators.

Blizzard knows how much of their playerbase is using some random laptop with Intel's iGPU, and WoW was always aimed to run at everything.

[Evildeffy]

\/

I'm not even arguing, you're the only one doing it.

So he said both as I could link the first post as well.
We could continue this all day but it's getting nowhere, you're saying "No it doesn't!" and I say "Yes it does!" agreeing with another.
That sounds like arguing to me from both sides.

Never really had a worgen but I'm pretty sure that I've never seen my characters without their mogs. They were always naked or missing parts when not showing correctly for some reason. Probably just another case of WoW randomness.

Not random, can be reproduced on multiple systems.

It's not really going to be a problem, raid respawns load fast enough even at HDs. I've raided for years and years with the game at a HD.

So did I and the difference remains noticeable with people without but on wipes it generally doesn't matter no. Crashes and reload however...

No, you are. I'm talking about raid and dungeons which are both situations that the extra loading time actually bothers OP since his raid/group waits for him. Reloads at BGs and LFR are equally as fast if not even faster.

Actually the OP does as well but w/e.

If I had one here I also wouldn't really do anything exotic with it either... Wish I had time to, but I really don't.
And even if I had, gaming in general lost the entertainment factor for me for most games. The ones that I actually find funny to play and have a good time doing so could probably run at my cellphone.

I meant I have the components next to me ... in the motherboard box... doing nothing.

The information goes from your disk, then get processed by your CPU and delivered to your card's VRAM telling it to draw it. The system doesn't tell your GPU to draw something that it doesn't know what it is, it first needs to "decode" the information and only then ask for it.

Where have I stated it doesn't know it? The way models work is that they are processed and then confirmed and displayed in a range basis from your character.
You are also missing quite a bit of layer interactions, but beside the point as it's moot.

Nah, it takes 3~5 to spike like crazy and make most things appear. The rest start to appear in batches periodically for another ~5s but without any noticeable spikes. Or at least it did when I used to play it in 2014. WoW is just too random to make any conclusions, it simply does things differently and you'll never really be able to tell why.

I remember spending a lot of time (read it like... 20s at most) at a ghost city before things started to appear when running the game at a ridiculously shit laptop. Which probably had a very bad 5400RPM HD. But at the Samsung ones here that I use for junk (well they're 8 years old...), it never really took more than 3~5s.

I can only tell you from experience from servers that were/are large, Silvermoon-EU is a large one and it consistently kept the exact same process and at no point in time was it just 10 seconds.
Counting this with an Intel Core i7 990X @ 4.52GHz and a WD Black 2TB ... If anyone with a YouTube account and a capture card has this and can demonstrate this ... please do.
I only have Twitch and it doesn't exactly work the best way if you want to show stuff like this.

Also since you haven't played since 2014 why are you here arguing 2 years later when others have different experiences?
WoW is not unpredictable... far from it it's very serial and predictable but alas ... arguing is pointless here.

I wish I actually cared about how WoW respond to things, but sadly I don't. Things are supposed to change for the better soon enough, D3D12 or Vulkan both can give WoW the fix that it always needed. And to be honest it doesn't matter, game is made to run even at graphing calculators.

Blizzard knows how much of their playerbase is using some random laptop with Intel's iGPU, and WoW was always aimed to run at everything.

Yes it does need it .. if only JUST for the multi-threading/driver overhead reduction. The rest I couldn't begin to give a fck about.

[Artorius]

So he said both as I could link the first post as well.
We could continue this all day but it's getting nowhere, you're saying "No it doesn't!" and I say "Yes it does!" agreeing with another.
That sounds like arguing to me from both sides.

But I was talking solely about the raid reload thing, and you quoted me so I automatically assumed that you were trying to talk about the same thing.
Be specific the next time you ##%@#.

Not random, can be reproduced on multiple systems.

Honestly I'd take any WoW related benchmark with a grain of salt, I've read about so many different experiences that sincerely speaking now I tell people to just put some settings down when the performance isn't there and be happy.

So did I and the difference remains noticeable with people without but on wipes it generally doesn't matter no. Crashes and reload however...

Yeah, if it crashes then you'll have the "big" load again.

I meant I have the components next to me ... in the motherboard box... doing nothing.

But you do have a working computer too, I'd probably end up just giving the other one to a family member or using as HTPC at the living room

I can only tell you from experience from servers that were/are large, Silvermoon-EU is a large one and it consistently kept the exact same process and at no point in time was it just 10 seconds.
Counting this with an Intel Core i7 990X @ 4.52GHz and a WD Black 2TB ... If anyone with a YouTube account and a capture card has this and can demonstrate this ... please do.
I only have Twitch and it doesn't exactly work the best way if you want to show stuff like this.

I'm not really doubting you, don't misunderstand me. I'm just saying that here it took me that time.

Also since you haven't played since 2014 why are you here arguing 2 years later when others have different experiences?

But I'm not even arguing =|

WoW is not unpredictable... far from it it's very serial and predictable but alas ... arguing is pointless here.

If you say so.

Yes it does need it .. if only JUST for the multi-threading/driver overhead reduction. The rest I couldn't begin to give a fck about.

Is there even a rest? I think dx12, more than any other previous one, is mainly focused on increasing performance. Sure it comes with those fancy extra effects that barely make a difference, but who cares.

[Hellfury]

For games the SSD doesn't really matter. If your HD is a decent 7200RPM HD then I can't really see how you'd have loading time issues at WoW. It'll take longer than a SSD but not longer than... 3~5s?

I don't really remember how low it used to take here, but I know that I always had WoW at a HD and I was always the first to get back to the boss room.
Burst of speed OP

What you say is true for most games, but WOW still streams data from the storage drive even after being loaded even if you have 16GB of RAM, and this data-streams have a impact on the FPS. Fast storage and fast RAM has a big impact on WOW stable FPS

Its easy to prove this, just open the Windows resouce monitor and you can see wow64.exe accessing data files on the storage even at normal playtimes.

Ppl forget that wow was made in a time when having 1GB of Ram and 256mb of VRAM was luxury