No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Lady Dragonheart]

For as long as there is no threat to the player for flying, then good.

The best aspect would be to make flying threatening, often times more threatening than being on the ground. Then, the speed and maneuverability of flying could be weighed by the danger it presents.

[SirCowdog]

I just post this here again:

The people who want flying, would you be happy if you got the old TBC 60% flying enabled at launch and the fast flying being enabled later? Would that make you happy? You could fly then, just not as fast as before.

I've brought up this kind of idea in this, and other threads, before. I think it's an idea that has merit. Treating flight as some binary, simplified ability that's only either on or off, is a mistake. Here's a post I made yesterday about taking the idea of flying a little bit further:

"What if there was a dual progression tree for mounts, just like there is for the class order hall, or like permanent buffs in Starcraft 2 as you progress through the campaign? Each time you complete a stage of the achievement, you choose between a buff for your ground or air mount. That way it's not just a choice between the "path of least resistance" by going with flight, but a real decision, with real benefits for ground AND air mounts."

Making your style of mount a real decision, and engaging players with the same type of choice they make in other areas of the game, like their talents, their spec, or what gear they're wearing. If Blizzard made each stage of of the achievement similar to pathfinder, would it really be all that different than what they're doing now? And it would benefit both air and ground mounts instead of just being a tedious laundry list that only unlocks flying at some unspecified point in the future.

I would love to have big flying elites that randomly fly around they agro and knock you out of the air. There is no threat there needs to be a threat, even with flying in life there are threats. Birds become victims to other flying predators, bats and flying insects too, hunters can shoot them out of the air. We need something also that makes flying a little risky.

I should clarify I posted this because one of the reasons given of why grounding happens is because they dont want us skipping all the danger on the ground while questing. So imo put danger in the skies also.

Added to changing how flight is unlocked, and how it slowly progresses over the course of the expansion, the idea of increasing the obstacles and threats that a flying player has to face would be the other side of the equation. We can take things a bit further than simply filling the air with a bunch of Kaliri birds, though.

Imagine a mid-air battle with multiple airships patrolling the skies like they did in Icecrown, shooting at each other and at the enemy demons the entire time. You get too close and they aggro and start shooting at you too. They would also provide a place to land if you aggro too many flying Legion Demons. Maybe there's quests or quest-givers, just like there were in Icecrown and in Deepholme. Grounded players could either use their aviana's feather, or talk to an NPC that uses a portal or a flight path to get there.

Another scenario:

Giant enemy fortress somewhere. Ground player enters in at the bottom floor and fights their way past whatever guards are inside to reach a boss. Meanwhile, flying players circle around outside, dodging cannon emplacements, looking for a balcony or something to land on in order to get in. Put guards on the balconies that harpoon and drag the flying player into themselves, or into the cannon fire.

Mix things up with some bombing runs or the vehicle mechanic to change the style of flight from travel to something more complex, the same way vehicles are used in ground quests.

The point here is that there are LOTS of ideas that could potentially enhance and use flight to make the game just as interesting and engaging from the air as it is on the ground, especially when you're talking about a team that's as talented, experienced, and well-funded. It doesn't even have to be every single quest, or every inch of every zone in the expansion. Just scatter some of these places around the expansion to keep flight interesting, and to provide variety.

Yeah, all that's going to make developing zones and content take longer. But really, if we're going to suffer through 14 month long content droughts and STILL buy the game anyway, does Blizzard REALLY think we wouldn't mind waiting a little bit longer for some added quality and options?

[quras]

For as long as there is no threat to the player for flying, then good.

The best aspect would be to make flying threatening, often times more threatening than being on the ground. Then, the speed and maneuverability of flying could be weighed by the danger it presents.

Yes but that takes a bit more effort in design that it seems blizzard is willing to put forth. That kind of design seems to cut into their profit margin too much and thus is unacceptable at this time.

Designing a world that has flight at max level like you have enjoyed in not something blizzard is willing to work for and put in game. It's not how to cut corners and make things last longer than their life-cycle can actually support content wise.

It's a damn shame.

[Saracens]

I've brought up this kind of idea in this, and other threads, before. I think it's an idea that has merit. Treating flight as some binary, simplified ability that's only either on or off, is a mistake. Here's a post I mad yesterday about taking the idea of flying a little bit further:

"What if there was a dual progression tree for mounts, just like there is for the class order hall, or like permanent buffs in Starcraft 2 as you progress through the campaign? Each time you complete a stage of the achievement, you choose between a buff for your ground or air mount. That way it's not just a choice between the "path of least resistance" by going with flight, but a real decision, with real benefits for ground AND air mounts."

Making your style of mount a real decision, and engaging players with the same type of choice they make in other areas of the game, like their talents, their spec, or what gear they're wearing. If Blizzard made each stage of of the achievement similar ot pathfinder, would it really be all that different than what they're doing now?



Added to changing how flight is unlocked, and how it slowly progresses over the course of the expansion, the idea of increasing the obstacles and threats that a flying player has to face would be the other side of the equation. We can take things a bit further than simply filling the air with a bunch of Kaliri birds, though.

Imagine a mid-air battle with multiple airships patrolling the skies like they did in Icecrown, shooting at each other and at the enemy demons the entire time. You get too close and they aggro and start shooting at you too. They would also provide a place to land if you aggro too many flying Legion Demons. Maybe there's quests or quest-givers, just like there were in Icecrown and in Deepholme. Grounded players could either use their aviana's feather, or talk to an NPC that uses a portal or a flight path to get there.

Another scenario:

Giant enemy fortress somewhere. Ground player enters in at the bottom floor and fights their way past whatever guards are inside to reach a boss. Meanwhile, flying players circle around outside, dodging cannon emplacements, looking for a balcony or something to land on in order to get in. Put guards on the balconies that harpoon and drag the flying player into themselves, or into the cannon fire.

Mix things up with some bombing runs or the vehicle mechanic to change the style of flight from travel to something more complex, the same way vehicles are used in ground quests.

The point here is that there are LOTS of ideas that could potentially enhance and use flight to make the game just as interesting and engaging from the air as it is on the ground, especially when you're talking about a team that's as talented, experienced, and well-funded. It doesn't even have to be every single quest, or every inch of every zone in the expansion. Just scatter some of these places around the expansion to keep flight interesting, and to provide variety.

Yeah, all that's going to make developing zones and content take longer. But really, if we're going to suffer through 14 month long content droughts and STILL buy the game anyway, does Blizzard REALLY think we wouldn't mind waiting a little bit longer for some added quality and options?

Awesome ideas. Love it. 10/10 would get harpooned like a motha.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Yes but that takes a bit more effort in design that it seems blizzard is willing to put forth. That kind of design seems to cut into their profit margin too much and thus is unacceptable at this time.

Designing a world that has flight at max level like you have enjoyed in not something blizzard is willing to work for and put in game. It's not how to cut corners and make things last longer than their life-cycle can actually support content wise.

It's a damn shame.

I disagree. While profit is important for any company, I think that it has a lot more to do with design than earnings. Reworking flight, as a whole, would be a tremendous undertaking that could easily sap coding and testing resources and consume a lot of time in the process of creating more content. It's more of an issue of other things being on the table that are currently more important that are taking precedence than anything else.

[quras]

I disagree. While profit is important for any company, I think that it has a lot more to do with design than earnings. Reworking flight, as a whole, would be a tremendous undertaking that could easily sap coding and testing resources and consume a lot of time in the process of creating more content. It's more of an issue of other things being on the table that are currently more important that are taking precedence than anything else.

I think it has a lot to do with their lack of design thats for sure. Flight doesn't need to be reworked. It's been around. They need to put in some time working it into the content they are creating. At max level content, when they start pulling things off the design wall and implementing them, flying should be included into that process not excluded.

That is an effort they do not want to do for the outside world and its a screw up to not put in that effort when designing world content they expect games to do at max level.

[SirCowdog]

I disagree. While profit is important for any company, I think that it has a lot more to do with design than earnings. Reworking flight, as a whole, would be a tremendous undertaking that could easily sap coding and testing resources and consume a lot of time in the process of creating more content. It's more of an issue of other things being on the table that are currently more important that are taking precedence than anything else.

They've shown us that they're perfectly willing to redesign the entire face of Azeroth with the Cata expansion, and completely redesign the character models. They've overhauled the stat system countless times, re-done flight paths, completely changed the talent system, and pretty much EVERY other aspect of the game. The argument that it would be too time-consuming or unfeasible is quite honestly, ridiculous, given Blizzard's history of changing the game.

[Lady Dragonheart]

I think it has a lot to do with their lack of design thats for sure. Flight doesn't need to be reworked. It's been around. They need to put in some time working it into the content they are creating. At max level content, when they start pulling things off the design wall and implementing them, flying should be included into that process not excluded.

That is an effort they do not want to do for the outside world and its a screw up to not put in that effort when designing world content they expect games to do at max level.

If flying is to be threatening, but not over-tuned, then a considerable amount of work would be required in the coding of it. It is extremely likely that it would need to be reworked in order to do so to a fraction of a level of polish that they take everything else to. Besides, if "screwing it up" is that much of a concern of yours, then that enforces my notion that they should take their time and rework it as needed. No matter which way you slice it, it will take a long time and a lot of work to accomplish and they've deduced that it simply isn't on the table at the moment.

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They've shown us that they're perfectly willing to redesign the entire face of Azeroth with the Cata expansion, and completely redesign the character models. They've overhauled the stat system countless times, re-done flight paths, completely changed the talent system, and pretty much EVERY other aspect of the game. The argument that it would be too time-consuming or unfeasible is quite honestly, ridiculous, given Blizzard's history of changing the game.

Weren't those aspects of the game implemented in a duration of many months, sometimes a year or more? That said, it is extremely plausible. I'm sorry, but the issue of it simply isn't something that they can throw a bandaid on. It would require serious time and effort to accomplish.

[SirCowdog]

If flying is to be threatening, but not over-tuned, then a considerable amount of work would be required in the coding of it. It is extremely likely that it would need to be reworked in order to do so to a fraction of a level of polish that they take everything else to. Besides, if "screwing it up" is that much of a concern of yours, then that enforces my notion that they should take their time and rework it as needed. No matter which way you slice it, it will take a long time and a lot of work to accomplish and they've deduced that it simply isn't on the table at the moment.

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Weren't those aspects of the game implemented in a duration of many months, sometimes a year or more? That said, it is extremely plausible. I'm sorry, but the issue of it simply isn't something that they can throw a bandaid on. It would require serious time and effort to accomplish.

Who's asking for a bandaid fix? Don't forget that the issue of flying has been going on since the WoD beta. This isn't a new issue, and Blizzard has had plenty of time to work on it.

If we're talking about future content, obviously they've already made their decision for Legion. The best we can hope for is a few new zones in 7.1 or 7.2 that are fully made for flight. But like I said, Blizzard already made their decision, and it's EXTREMELY unlikely that we'll see that. But the expansion after Legion(if there is one)? Well, there's all kinds of possibilities.

[Connll]

But the expansion after Legion(if there is one)? Well, there's all kinds of possibilities.

I see only one possibility. The higher-ups at Activision-Blizzard take a thorough look at Legion´s state and how it got to that point, and then proceed to fire most, if not all, of the current WoW devs. Then perhaps some of the replacements won´t hate flight so much.

That is, assuming the order to develop WoW in the cheapest, laziest way possible didn´t come from said higher-ups, of course.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Who's asking for a bandaid fix? Don't forget that the issue of flying has been going on since the WoD beta. This isn't a new issue, and Blizzard has had plenty of time to work on it.

Well, "issue" is a relative term in this instance, as many find the state of flying agreeable already. Also, how do you know the required allotment of time that Blizzard should dedicate to what you assume this "issue" you have to be. Not only that, but you're also assuming that they've made some form of progress on this "issue" that you have with flying to begin with. How do you know that they're working on anything related to your "issue" with flying?

If we're talking about future content, obviously they've already made their decision for Legion. The best we can hope for is a few new zones in 7.1 or 7.2 that are fully made for flight. But like I said, Blizzard already made their decision, and it's EXTREMELY unlikely that we'll see that. But the expansion after Legion(if there is one)? Well, there's all kinds of possibilities.

This "we" you speak of doesn't include me, just so you know. I have no "issue" with their decision to gate flying. I was only speaking hypothetically in an example of the instance. They are in no shape or form even likely considering something along the lines of my proposal on the matter, and that's fine because I understand the extraordinary amount of time and work that would have to go into it. So, yes, there are possibilities for the future, but I'm also not going whine and complain about it. I'm just open to ideas that I view as good, and that is simply all.

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I see only one possibility. The higher-ups at Activision-Blizzard take a thorough look at Legion´s state and how it got to that point, and then proceed to fire most, if not all, of the current WoW devs. Then perhaps some of the replacements won´t hate flight so much.

That is, assuming the order to develop WoW in the cheapest, laziest way possible didn´t come from said higher-ups, of course.

You obviously have no conceptual understanding of either business management or game design if those are your honest opinions, that much is clear. Wanting something is one thing, but whining and complaining like this when you don't get your way is completely something else, aside from being plain childish and immature.

[quras]

If flying is to be threatening, but not over-tuned, then a considerable amount of work would be required in the coding of it.

No harder than creating any encounter they have created 1000s of times already but except in this instance with flying. Some mobs take people out of the air when possible. We ahve bigger problems if that is what throws blizzard for a loop when coding.

It is extremely likely that it would need to be reworked in order to do so to a fraction of a level of polish that they take everything else to.

Incorrect. Flying doesn't need to be reworked to add in area encounters to how people approach. It's been done years ago and blizzard choose to take the easier path in design content. That isn't something worth supporting. Even if it does take longer to implement. It tends to create a better game given how past expansions compare to recent ones that hinder flying.

Besides, if "screwing it up" is that much of a concern of yours, then that enforces my notion that they should take their time and rework it as needed. No matter which way you slice it, it will take a long time and a lot of work to accomplish and they've deduced that it simply isn't on the table at the moment.

They should take their time. They sure as hell are taking their time now trying to shoehorn in a garrison feature few seemed to enjoy as well as it only applying to what was it? 3% content. Seems there willing to just through a few hoops for something so small and disliked. They can jump through the same hoops for something more seem in favor of. That being flying at max level. blizzard sure as hell didn't change their minds on no flying because it was a small number that opposed their original decision.

It might take time and work to accomplish and they need to get their ass in gear. We have had expansions with flying and anything less is unacceptable. We know they can do it. We have played their work with and without it. Seems without flying things just aren't as entertaining in wow be it flying only or a combination of other mistakes and no flying.

[clevin]

I just post this here again:

The people who want flying, would you be happy if you got the old TBC 60% flying enabled at launch and the fast flying being enabled later? Would that make you happy? You could fly then, just not as fast as before.

No. I paid 5000g for epic flight speed. Why should I not have it? Why do some of you keep trying to limit flight like this? People here keep proposing silly compromises for weird reasons when the solution is obvious:

Give me the flight I've already worked for as I used it for most of the life of the game. Quit fucking around as if not letting me fly is some key aspect of the game. Spend all this time and attention elsewhere, especially if you're not going to design compelling content around regain the ability to fly.

Or, jerk me around, artificially limit me for no reason other than 'the team likes it' and you won't get my money.

[Lady Dragonheart]

No harder than creating any encounter they have created 1000s of times already but except in this instance with flying. Some mobs take people out of the air when possible. We ahve bigger problems if that is what throws blizzard for a loop when coding.

Again, how do you know this? You are honestly certain that you know how to code the game and creating flying to become a dynamic instance of combat with sufficient threat that's properly balance across the entirety of the game (or at the very less, the newest expansion)? Where is it that you are mining these assumptions of yours?

Incorrect. Flying doesn't need to be reworked to add in area encounters to how people approach. It's been done years ago and blizzard choose to take the easier path in design content. That isn't something worth supporting. Even if it does take longer to implement. It tends to create a better game given how past expansions compare to recent ones that hinder flying.

No, it hasn't. Also, again, you speak as if you know how to program the game and the direct process of how to alter flying to such an extraordinary degree. If this is the case, perhaps you should be coding it instead of them? If it isn't the case, then how do you know what it does and doesn't take to impliment an entirely new aspect to the game, one that likely requires redesigning one of the most signature things in the game: flying.

They should take their time. They sure as hell are taking their time now trying to shoehorn in a garrison feature few seemed to enjoy as well as it only applying to what was it? 3% content. Seems there willing to just through a few hoops for something so small and disliked. They can jump through the same hoops for something more seem in favor of. That being flying at max level. blizzard sure as hell didn't change their minds on no flying because it was a small number that opposed their original decision.

It might take time and work to accomplish and they need to get their ass in gear. We have had expansions with flying and anything less is unacceptable. We know they can do it. We have played their work with and without it. Seems without flying things just aren't as entertaining in wow be it flying only or a combination of other mistakes and no flying.

Granted, those are your opinions and not actual facts. Do you have any actual facts on the matter? I mean, you speak as if you feel like you could code the thing yourself. However, from what I understand, I would be willing to bet that I know more about coding than you do considering that I understand the level of work that would need to be invested into it as well as its value. The simple thing is, that if it isn't on the table for them, then they have other plans, and that is that. The question is, why do you think that it's something that is not only easy but relevant to what they want to do?

[Connll]

You obviously have no conceptual understanding of either business management or game design if those are your honest opinions, that much is clear. Wanting something is one thing, but whining and complaining like this when you don't get your way is completely something else, aside from being plain childish and immature.

If you wrote something like that, you have no conceptual understanding of intellectual honesty, or text interpretation, that much is clear.

Having an opinion about something is one thing, but whining and complaining about SPECULATION and CONJECTURE about possible events in the future is something else completely, aside from being plain childish and immature.

[Lady Dragonheart]

If you wrote something like that, you have no conceptual understanding of intellectual honesty, or text interpretation, that much is clear.

Having an opinion about something is one thing, but whining and complaining about SPECULATION and CONJECTURE about possible events in the future is something else completely, aside from being plain childish and immature.

You do know that you were the one complaining in this instance and not me, unless you missed that part. I like how the game is, you do not, and you've been making a point to vocalize that in a snide manner. However, if you want to continue in this rhetorical drivel of yours without presenting an actual real counterpoint, I'll simply have to dismiss your claim as you have no factual data to support it.

[SirCowdog]

Well, "issue" is a relative term in this instance, as many find the state of flying agreeable already.

I'm not disputing that. Obviously everyone has an opinion on the subject. Some like the changes, some don't.

Flight and its potential removal has been an ongoing debate since rumors of it first popped up during the WoD closed beta, and has been going ever since. Blizzard has said themselves that not only are the players split 50/50 on the subject, but their devs are also not in full agreement with how to handle it. The argument has been raging across pretty much every fan-based forum, as well as the official forums. There are countless youtube videos and dev interviews on the subject on both sides.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or if maybe I didn't articulate myself well enough, but flying(or its asbence) in WoW is definitely an "issue".

Also, how do you know the required allotment of time that Blizzard should dedicate to what you assume this "issue" you have to be. Not only that, but you're also assuming that they've made some form of progress on this "issue" that you have with flying to begin with. How do you know that they're working on anything related to your "issue" with flying?

My post is almost purely theoretical when it comes to discussing the potential future of the game. I don't presume to know the specifics of the dev process. Nobody but Blizzard knows that. But I have been in enough Alpha and Beta tests, and been part of WoW PTRs and betas since vanilla. So I think there are some reasonable and educated guesses I can make about the time frame required for something.

Blizzard is on record as saying they've been working on Legion since at least the launch of WoD. That's roughly two and a half years to complete an entire expansion. I think it's fair to guess that a full overhaul of the flight mechanics and systems would not take as long as creating an entire expansion, although it would certainly increase the amount of dev time to launch an expansion with said overhaul. It would take less time to simply adapt previous examples of flying content, such as bombing runs, anti-air cannons, kaliri birds, and airships, into modern open world design.

So I do think it's fair to say that if Blizzard wanted to, they could have added significant changes to Legion if they had wanted to, especially if they made it a major feature on the same order of magnitude that we've seen in other expansions, such as Order Halls, Artifacts, Character Model upgrades, or the complete re-tooling of Azeroth for Cataclysm.

Keep in mind I said "COULD HAVE". This is all theoretical. Clearly that's not the direction they took the game. But I think it's just as clear that Blizzard is keeping a close eye on how the issue of flying plays out, and I've made some pretty fair speculations(in previous posts) on what I think they're likely to do based on how well recieved Legion is.

I see only one possibility. The higher-ups at Activision-Blizzard take a thorough look at Legion´s state and how it got to that point, and then proceed to fire most, if not all, of the current WoW devs. Then perhaps some of the replacements won´t hate flight so much.

That is, assuming the order to develop WoW in the cheapest, laziest way possible didn´t come from said higher-ups, of course.

I'm not sure that's entirely realistic. I've I said in the past, Blizzard isn't stupid. It's my personal opinion that profits are currently the motivating factor of design decisions, rather than creativity and a desire to make a wondrous, immersive, and engaging game. But that doesn't change the fact that WoW is STILL the largest MMO in the market, and highly popular and profitable.

It's possible that pathfinder and the pushback of flight in Legion are so poorly received that it lights a fire under Blizzard to come up with something better. I would like that VERY MUCH. But I don't think devs are going to lose their jobs over it. If that was going to happen, it would have happened because of WoD, where the no-flying experiment pretty much turned into a trainwreck of ambivalence that hurt the overall quality of the entire expansion.

[Fabinas]

This is WoW, not a flight simulator. While all ideas about flying gameplay are creative, they won't get implemented. NEVER. Whether it is graphics engine limitations or lack of will to employ such gameplay in WoW, we won't get such content in WoW. Again: the only "flying" relevant content we will ever get is ground content, unreachable without flight or huge world areas, needing flight to be traversed.

[Eapoe]

This really isn't an arguement for or against post I am doing right now, but for people that are wanting more in depth fligh mechanics and things like that, just keep in mind we are discussing a dev team that scrapped an entire raid because they couldn't make an underwater raid seem interesting or work properly. I'm not trying to use that against them or shoot down any pro flyer arguements, just an observation that as it stands now, the dev team they currently have is possibly not the correct one for things you are wanting.

[Mafic]

They've shown us that they're perfectly willing to redesign the entire face of Azeroth with the Cata expansion, and completely redesign the character models. They've overhauled the stat system countless times, re-done flight paths, completely changed the talent system, and pretty much EVERY other aspect of the game. The argument that it would be too time-consuming or unfeasible is quite honestly, ridiculous, given Blizzard's history of changing the game.

They re-designed all of Azeroth for flying.

If flying was a mistake they would have never done that.

Watcher aka Ion Hazikostas and his B team have an unhealthy grudge against flying. When Ghostcrawler left the building, flying, glyph system, and talent system has been all discarded.