Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

This is 100% not what PvE players wanted when we said "Shadow Dance is meaningless" - Buttons for the sake of buttons do no good; SoD adds no complexity and is boring, the GCD change just makes it more ignorable really, which is best case scenario for such a poor ability.

Oh i don't doubt that or disagree that it is a boring ability, lets be honest, it just SnD with a different name when it boils down to raiding. You keep it up as much as you can, nothings changed there really apart from now damage can be shifted into yellow attacks as we no longer have insane auto attack damage to hinder it. The change is largely a pvp one i feel, since that extra global of damage/cc/time has a huge impact on a arena match.

My comment was more aimed at all the pro SoD posters who thought the ability was "interesting", while a lot of us were calling for it to be taken off the GCD. Their counter argument was they wanted the button to press as otherwise it will be even more boring that it is...........fast forward to now, turns out its just as boring with the button as it is without, meh?

Rogue just feels bad atm, this change goes a long way to eliminating the clunky feel of shadow dance though, so its a step in the right direction i feel.

If they were to add something new, i definitley think that something with shadowblades would feel more impactful and interesting. The last thing on my list now to be address is that horrendous abortion of shadow nova, really needs fixing. It will be flat not taken in PvP due to its effect, why they are happy with PvP players actively avoiding a major trait baffles me!!!

[Deleted]

Holy smokes, there's actually an active discussion happening in the Brewmaster thread with Celestalon. We sure could use one too.

[Narokath]

Holy smokes, there's actually an active discussion happening in the Brewmaster thread with Celestalon. We sure could use one too.

I can't be bothered looking at it, but it's probably something along the lines of "Yeah, we're currently happy with the state of Brewmaster and after a tuning pass it will feel really good to play".

I've pretty much decided that Blizzard has forgotten about Rogues. Feedback is a broken record. You either have the top tier raiders complaining about the same issues every patch that do not get address or you have the people who have picked up the spec for the first time ever saying "I really like this". All 3 specs need massive work. Subtlety and Outlaw need so much more work as their playstyle has rapidly declined from live. Assassination is the only one that has improved from live but it still needs work.

They tried to evolve Subtlety but failed and reverted it back to some place in between, and I don't know whether to abandon it in the woods or put a shotgun to it's head to put it out of it's misery. Outlaw is twice as worse as live but it's apparently okay because they're pirates now. Assassination feels better than live but it's still monotonous to play.

Maybe I'm bias, but after playing through all the specs and reviewing testing logs, I have to say that Rogue in it's totality is the most undeveloped class in Alpha at the moment.

[maddnesskhaz]

Celestalon went in to a full description of how he believes Brewmaster is intended to play, it started out as the usual BS about "we're happy with it" then after being savaged by the entire BrM community for 3 pages he actually has posted quite a large amount of commentary arguing his case.

Meanwhile we continue to twiddle our thumbs...

[Todesbote]

Celestalon went in to a full description of how he believes Brewmaster is intended to play, it started out as the usual BS about "we're happy with it" then after being savaged by the entire BrM community for 3 pages he actually has posted quite a large amount of commentary arguing his case.

Meanwhile we continue to twiddle our thumbs...

Can't do more than repeat ourselves and give detailed feedback on what we feel is wrong. We are doing that.

How can we force them to stop ignoring us? We can't. It's so fucking frustrating that I don't even know if I should bother anymore. Just leave the class until 7.1 probably.

[kalaratic]

well to be fair he's not going to post like he did for brewmasters because we're not confused about how to play the spec. we're just confused how to have fun playing the spec

[Todesbote]

well to be fair he's not going to post like he did for brewmasters because we're not confused about how to play the spec. we're just confused how to have fun playing the spec

Thats a shame. I'd like to seem him write a guide on how to do 5-man dungeons as Subtlety. Would really love to hear that.

Let me give you a sneak preview:

"First step: spec into Outlaw."

Case closed.

[Deleted]

Thats a shame. I'd like to seem him write a guide on how to do 5-man dungeons as Subtlety. Would really love to hear that.

Let me give you a sneak preview:

"First step: spec into Outlaw."

Case closed.

This is my only bug bear coming into the expansion, especially since i have a few friends returning and we're all showing interest in the new mythic dungeon system.

You only need to look at the added affixes on lvl 3 and above for these dungeons to see clearly that sub is going to be more of a hindrance to a group than advantage.

Yes if you are really coordinated then it can work as long as you have strong AoE from the other group members, but why would you do that when outlaw will be hands down better for these affix's in all circumstances.

Just to break it down:

Available at power level 3+:

Tyrannical - Bosses have significantly more health and damage. Arguably sub could be better than outlaw for this because single target could matter the most, but that is dependent on boss mechanics, and you still got to clear trash so outlaw is still better really.

Bolstering - Non-boss enemies will buff nearby allies' health and damage when defeated. Constant AoE needed so mobs die at the same time-Outlaw

Raging - Non-boss enemies will enrage at low health, dealing double damage until killed. This at first looks like single target, but don't be fooled it is AoE until a certain % then kill one by one, outlaw again is better since AoE and good short term burst.

Teeming - Additional non-boss enemies are present throughout the dungeon; kill count requirement increased. More mobs more AoE-Outlaw hands down.

Being how they are putting so much emphasis on this new 5-man content, it is beyond me how they think that subs style of doing AoE will be anything but utter dog shit for these type of dungeons, one simple aoe finisher, such as has been suggested by making shadow nova an active talent to choose would not only solve the above issues, it will also solve the issue of PvP'rs having a dead major talent trait in their artifact because none of us will take it due to it breaking cc.

I guess they just want us to be fucking Pirates.........

[Mafic]

well to be fair he's not going to post like he did for brewmasters because we're not confused about how to play the spec. we're just confused how to have fun playing the spec

The sad thing is Sub is so simple it is hard to screw up lol.

With that said if players say they don't know how to play Legion Sub maybe Blizz takes the bait lmao.

[maddnesskhaz]

To be fair; Sub isn't necessarily easier to play now - there's a number of cumbersome things to manage - it's just that there's not a lot of interest in anything we have to manage.

You'll want to try to avoid using a finisher with 2 stacks of Dance, you'll want 100% uptime on SoD and Nightblade, and you'll want to avoid overcapping from the RNG passive flow of CP.

Nothing is particularly interesting in any of that, certainly having Nightblade uptime is only important because it's more DPE than Eviscerate, but these are all things we'll ostensibly want to track.

[kalaratic]

another big post from celestalon on the brewmaster thread. can we get that wokou guy to keep shitposting on the sub thread so we can argue amongst each other until we hit 10 pages and a dev actually clicks on the thread

[Deleted]

They could at least have made Nightblade hit like Sanguinary Veins Rupture, which would also help with AoE. Having it hit like Eviscerate is just stupid.

If we're going to have a DoT that requires CPs and Energy it needs to hit hard, I hate it when it's just more DPE. Specs like Shadow or Affliction also spread DoTs around for AoE, but at least those DoTs hit hard and are instant cast. And they're DoT based specs, which then makes sense. Assassination is supposed to be Rogue's DoT spec, yet they have the AoE finisher while Sub, the Finisher spec, has to spread around some weak Nightblade one by one. It doesnt' make any sense.

Call me wishful thinker, but I refuse to believe the devs actually think current Sub is finished.

[Mafic]

another big post from celestalon on the brewmaster thread. can we get that wokou guy to keep shitposting on the sub thread so we can argue amongst each other until we hit 10 pages and a dev actually clicks on the thread

LMAO running a psy ops may actually work.

[kalaratic]

They could at least have made Nightblade hit like Sanguinary Veins Rupture, which would also help with AoE. Having it hit like Eviscerate is just stupid..

nightblade definitely needs some work. i really wish there was something like sinister calling for legion sub. would be cool if each shadowstrike ticked nightblade for really big dick burst

[Deleted]

You'll want to try to avoid using a finisher with 2 stacks of Dance,

Agree in general, but last time I checked having free Dance proc on 2 charges didn't stop the recharge timer. As in - you go to 3 charges, but it still recharges, so if you use (now 3rd) dance before recharge timer finishes, you don't lose anything. Doesn't reduce the complexity much, you just want to avoid casting finisher on 3 charges instead of 2.

Edit: ps. I also noticed your sentiment for sanguinary veins in earlier posts, which I can't understand at all. For me it was nothing else than maintenance debuff, which is worse than maintenance buff (hinders target switching, especially on short living targets). I'd rather have rupture worth keeping up because its good damage.

[Lorentz]

Agree in general, but last time I checked having free Dance proc on 2 charges didn't stop the recharge timer. As in - you go to 3 charges, but it still recharges, so if you use (now 3rd) dance before recharge timer finishes, you don't lose anything. Doesn't reduce the complexity much, you just want to avoid casting finisher on 3 charges instead of 2.

Edit: ps. I also noticed your sentiment for sanguinary veins in earlier posts, which I can't understand at all. For me it was nothing else than maintenance debuff, which is worse than maintenance buff (hinders target switching, especially on short living targets). I'd rather have rupture worth keeping up because its good damage.

I guess animation deluded you. When you have 2 stacks of Dance and get 3rd recharge seemingly does not break and keep going. But if you use that 3rd Dance you will see it suddenly starting anew.

[elfporn]

I guess animation deluded you. When you have 2 stacks of Dance and get 3rd recharge seemingly does not break and keep going. But if you use that 3rd Dance you will see it suddenly starting anew.

Chiming in: After the long ass opener you should have atleast 1 stealth option coming available before SoD runs out(for the refresh ofc), and use everything else on CD. If you stick to that, despite deepening shadows procs, you should rarely need to worry about stealth CD waste outside of the opener.

[kalaratic]

Chiming in: After the long ass opener you should have atleast 1 stealth option coming available before SoD runs out(for the refresh ofc), and use everything else on CD. If you stick to that, despite deepening shadows procs, you should rarely need to worry about stealth CD waste outside of the opener.

how often can u dance on the alpha currently? not counting the opener, just normal rotation, is it around 3 dances per minute so u still get around the same length as on live?

[elfporn]

how often can u dance on the alpha currently? not counting the opener, just normal rotation, is it around 3 dances per minute so u still get around the same length as on live?

On the opener, use everything, save 1 charge of SD for the 35sec refresh, continue using everything, first charge comes off CD before 2nd SoD runs out, refresh, continue.

Likely you won't run out of stealth CD's before the 35sec refresh.

SoD@2sec-->SD, vanish, SD, sprint, SD if DS procced, else wait for SoD refresh for SD

And uh, to answer the question, it's fairly fluid, dance as much as you can, SoD has to be refreshed twice a minute, likely SD will be used twice a minute atleast, but with sprint and vanish, we'll get more stealth uptime than it seems at first glance

[Artorius]

I'm not exactly following the alpha but wtf happened?

Didn't they change Sub to something that repeated itself periodically instead of small chunks of burst every now and then? Why is the old Shadow dance back while the others changes are still here?

This thing feels like a mess.

And this new ability with the 20% damage increase buff for 20s, just what. They removed SnD because it was just a silly buff to keep that increased the damage, how is this different in any way apart form the fact that it's even simpler?

Pls Blizzard, you're drunk.