The Problem With C'thun

[Raiju]

Druid - Waiting on that Choose Druid, sure it will come in time but pretty locked into C'thun atm.

I've been running a Fandral/Choose Druid with beasts for synergy. It's been absolutely fantastic and honestly can take most decks on toe to toe without fandral. 2 turns of fandral is near guaranteed win, and providing you draw him it's surprisingly easy for him to stick on the board due to general trend of you 'gaining' the board early with stealth kitty / raptor / flame druid / wildwalker / mark of yshaarj.

Buffing the early minions with the later 2 is great at slowing down aggro. Wins most of the time against aggro locks (swipe is obviously amazing vs them), 50/50 vs aggro shaman depending primarily on who gets the board first.

Overall it's comparable winrate to the zoolock, admittedly the games are a little longer but it's a lot more fun.

@Djoron you can't realistically run a deathrattle deck without it being nzoth in standard. I think you're assuming everything you find easy to deal with in wild would be the same in standard, which it's not necessarily. Antonidas is the same threat he's always been, nothing changed there except you're more likely to remove than silence as silence isn't run as much. Elise? Can't say I've even seen a map go off with how aggro all the shamans/warlocks are, which by result means any non hardcore control deck has to be fairly tempo/aggressive itself to manage.

[Bit-Metal]

I think the problem with C'Thun decks are the "If you C'thun have at least 10 attack". It's too easy to get C"thun to 10 attack and the minions are too powerful. If the requirement was higher, I wouldn't mind those cards a much, but as it is now, I think those cards are the biggest problem.

[Raiju]

It needs those minions those, else it's just a glorified arena deck that hopes to play C'Thun asap before just dieing.
Seeing how you have to use quite a couple deck slots for the C'Thun strategy, that don't really do anything when they are played, you kinda need those big payoff cards
aside from C'Thun itself.

c'thun itself is the payoff. 2/1/deal 2 damage for 3 is just a more flexible version of argent horserider with a free cthun buff on top. Should be +1/+1 for both that one and the 4/2 divine shield (basically a shredder, that card that got removed from standard).

After playing these cards competitive with strong meta cards with 0 downside your c'thun is now a 10/10, which means a druid can throw down the best possible twilight drake which conveniently will not die simply to a silence - even with a silence it'll trade 2:1 with nearly anything played prior. Hard removal? Better hope you have an answer to arrakoa / twin emps / cthun himself. That being said if this guy comes out buffed turn 4 without an answer it's usually a done game.

The priest & warrior ones aren't as bad, but undeniably overbudget for how easy the supposed qualifier is.

Make the disciple & divine shield +1/+1 and I feel you solve both problems at once. It forces a c'thun player to either rely on the vanilla stat minions or likely not get the c'thun activation until later (as it really should be). It still makes c'thun a threat as much as now.

[Raiju]

And just because a deck is strong doesn't mean it's oppressive.
To see that and then maybe consider nerfs will need a month or two at least, even with how quick HS is in it's deck and meta development.

Doesn't matter, the cards are out of line regardless of the deck. heck in a paladin divine shield deck disciple is an outright better argent horsrider. This is with no +2/+2.

These decks have counters - it's called aggro. It doesn't mean c'thun is fun to play against and it doesn't mean c'thun should be suspended by OTT cards.

[Simulacrum]

C'thun is too weak to carry a C'thun deck.

The only reason c'thun decks are even remotely viable is because of the 'requires 10' minions that can go 2- or 3-for-1 to win back the board that you lost because you spent the first 3+ turns playing slow vanilla cards that your opponent removed with spells or more efficient trades while destroying your face with his now 4+ attack mana wyrm or councilman or trogg or whatever. Or he plays a N'zoth deck that cycles like a god, and by the time you're able to play C'thun his minions on board have like 25 health by themselves, one of which is probably a sylvanas. Or he plays a control warrior and has like 60 health and laughs at your pretense. Or he has ice block up and Reno & poly in his hand. Or...

There are tons of ways to deal with C'thun. Nothing C'thun decks can do even begins to remotely approximate much of theo ther bullshit out there right now, like the face shamans and the zoolocks. Even the now-dead druid combo was a million times worse: Those guys just went face all game then 14-to-0'd you by turn 7, unlike C'thun decks which have no face damage and just play mostly resilient minions that you have to remove. Probably the only really broken shit about it is Brann. That guy is broken, in C'thun decks, though. If you can't remove him the turn he's dropped, you basically lose. 3 emperors into 30-40-50 damage c'thuns often follows. But that happening is pretty rare.

[Raiju]

I'd say I see brann - emperor 1/3 of c'thun games I play against, not rare at all.

[Arrowstormen]

I'd say I see brann - emperor 1/3 of c'thun games I play against, not rare at all.

If you can't remove a 2-4 on the turn where the opponent can follow up with a C'Thun, (which would mean 9 mana or maybe 8), you're in a pretty bad situation anyway.

C'Thun decks don't really bother me, and I think they will evolve into either being hybrid decks or decks played only by people who simply don't have the cards to make the better decks. I don't see a flat-out C'Thun deck being tier 1, it's too easy to beat.

[Raiju]

If you can't remove a 2-4 on the turn where the opponent can follow up with a C'Thun, (which would mean 9 mana or maybe 8), you're in a pretty bad situation anyway.

Relevance? Vek'lor is a 7 drop, so the triple 4/6 is not a multi-turn thing. Whether you deal with the Brann or not is less relevant at that point as most decks don't run hard aoe removal (basically paladins/mages by my memory) and short of an aoe dealing with brann can be accepting 12 damage in the face here.

[Taalyn]

The only issue I have with C'Thun cards is that Disciple of C'Thun is being used in non-C'Thun decks because it's a souped up Leper Gnome.

[araine]

I'll have to play more with C'thun (and with/against a greater variety of C'thun decks), but I see it being a strong, simple, but not necessarily overpowered deck. The obvious downside is that if C'thun isn't drawn the deck is bad, opening up weaknesses against aggressive or tempo-oriented decks. I can also foresee heavy control decks rising up to counter C'thun if it becomes too popular. Control Warrior in particular seems strong against it, being able to stack enough armour to nullify a lot of C'thun's damage while also having a lot of efficient removal for the minions, and ample time to draw into an answer to deal with C'thun the turn after it hits the board.

We'll have to see how things play out, though. It's clearly meant to be a simple deck to play, but I wonder if there aren't a few too many minions that just flat out buff C'thun as soon as they come into play without any special conditions needing to be fulfilled. I guess the big question will be whether it's possible for other control decks to counter C'thun consistently enough to keep it in check, otherwise we might just end up with a stale C'thun vs Aggro meta.

Just like in my rogue deck that several times have had C'thun at 50+ attack and never been drawn. record is a whooping 108 attack and still not drawn. so frustrating that i have started to mulligan for c'thun just to know i have him when i need him

[Kelimbror]

Yeah, forgot to say that Brann is making the 'vanilla' minions troublesome as well. There is no risk in playing them. Your opponent has to clear your minions to prevent face damage, b/c you know the turn 10 bonanza is coming. It's essentially just a face deck, except it delays the damage until turn 10.

Think about it...it's even worse than smorc cancer. At least then you have minions you can react with, potential board clears to destabilize, etc. But with this setup? There are no downsides for the opponent, no ability to 'lose' their board, b/c they are just getting free damage to your face if you spend all game keeping the board clear. If you don't keep the board clear, they hit face enough to make cthun kill you anyways.

The only true counter to this is gaining life beyond your 30, via secrets or armor, or rushing their face harder. And even then, they are going to have a full board of 'vanilla' minions to keep yours clear. Idk. This is weird.

That being said, I find my Yoggsreno Mage to be really successful against these face locks and shaman. I love the versatility of all these new mage cards.

[Raiju]

That being said, I find my Yoggsreno Mage to be really successful against these face locks and shaman. I love the versatility of all these new mage cards.

I get that yogg is about 60%~ positive, but I've yet to see a yogg go badly played against me.

Makes me really salty, it does.

[Kelimbror]

I get that yogg is about 60%~ positive, but I've yet to see a yogg go badly played against me.

Makes me really salty, it does.

Idk, he's been 50/50 for me...but to be fair my original goal was to cast as many spells as possible and hold out to use him. It pretty much always killed me. Now he's in my deck just to try and prevent guaranteed defeat. Most of the time I win games without ever playing him. It's less fun, but now I actually care about winning.

I did have a game yesterday against a Cthun priest (god they are awful) where I had 8 health and an empty board after he played cthun. It wound up casting tree of life, then twisting nether, then filled my empty hand with cards. To the priest's credit, he didn't concede, but he had already drawn his entire deck at that point through heals so he was well into fatigue.

[Wondercrab]

Having played a bit more C'thun since launch, I actually don't like the deck a whole lot. If you can draw Emperor Seven and C'thun (and the occasional class minion, like the Mantid for Druids), then the decks are *very* strong. Without those key cards coming out in a timely fashion, however, things don't often end well. Even though it's ostensibly a slow control archetype, the classes that have some of the best C'thun synergy (Druid and Priest, from my experience) lack the consistent card draw to balance a stable early-mid game with searching for the few key cards they need to win. C'thun just doesn't feel consistent enough for me.

I've been enjoying the aggressive divine shield zoo-Paladin deck a lot more. It's a super interesting control archetype very similar to zoo warlock in how it plays, but with a lot of neat quirks that make it feel very new and fresh, plus a low curve that results in a lot of early game consistency and some powerful combos to come back with even if you get a bad initial draw.

[Arrowstormen]

Having played a bit more C'thun since launch, I actually don't like the deck a whole lot. If you can draw Emperor Seven and C'thun (and the occasional class minion, like the Mantid for Druids), then the decks are *very* strong. Without those key cards coming out in a timely fashion, however, things don't often end well. Even though it's ostensibly a slow control archetype, the classes that have some of the best C'thun synergy (Druid and Priest, from my experience) lack the consistent card draw to balance a stable early-mid game with searching for the few key cards they need to win. C'thun just doesn't feel consistent enough for me.

I've been enjoying the aggressive divine shield zoo-Paladin deck a lot more. It's a super interesting control archetype very similar to zoo warlock in how it plays, but with a lot of neat quirks that make it feel very new and fresh, plus a low curve that results in a lot of early game consistency and some powerful combos to come back with even if you get a bad initial draw.

Control archetype? There's not a lot of control involved in zoo og divine aggro pala.

[Kelimbror]

I've been enjoying the aggressive divine shield zoo-Paladin deck a lot more. It's a super interesting control archetype very similar to zoo warlock

I'm going to assume both 'super interesting' and 'control' were typos and you meant the opposite. One is certainly not true, the other is subjective depending on whether you like brainless plays or not.

[Wondercrab]

Control archetype? There's not a lot of control involved in zoo og divine aggro pala.

Zoo is an aggressive control deck. It's all about efficient minion trading to secure a dominant board position that ultimately wins you the game. People often mistake it for aggro since it aims to win before the super late game and runs a lot of low cost cards, but if you see a zoolock or divine shield paladin going all aggro then they're playing the deck wrong nine times out of ten. Without consistent control of the board, these decks are incredibly impotent.

[Deleted]

Personally I just find them extremely boring, as well as the C'thun minions to be way too powerful for their cost. I've played like 70 games over the past 24 hours (I was bored, sue me...) and at least half, if not more of them have been C'thun, so god damn frustrating.

You could say "go aggro!" or some shit, but that's even more boring... At this point I think I'd rather stop playing Hearthstone altogether until this ridiculous C'thun craze blows over.

[Deleted]

You could say "go aggro!" or some shit, but that's even more boring... At this point I think I'd rather stop playing Hearthstone altogether until this ridiculous C'thun craze blows over.

I kind of have to agree at this point, on C'thun being boring part at least; it's dead boring to play against and sure as hell is boring to play with. But there is no rule that says you need to go aggro if you're not playing C'thun. I made two C'thun decks at the very beginning, but I've since branched out into fandral druid (a beast synergy deck), reno & dragon paladin, and n'zoth control priest, and they all beat C'thun just fine.

[PPN]

Personally I just find them extremely boring, as well as the C'thun minions to be way too powerful for their cost

Thats it more or less. C'Thun itself wouldnt be a problem. The problem is that the minions are waaaay to strong. Imo it should be challenging to get to C'Thun and then get rewraded. But thats not the case.

Even with an aggrssive midrange deck its hard to keep up with OP C'Thun minions. Instead of of making the game fast, so the opponent cant get to throw out C'Thun you are even struggling just to get rid of the minions. I guess at some point mabe there will come a nerf...maybe like 6-12 months. As usually blizzard will give ppl time to feel powerful.