Legion - Subtlety discussion

[maddnesskhaz]

Celestalon made that wall of text because they believe players play Legion BrM in a wrong way. In our case we just don't agree with their decisions.
Others devs do communicate. Look at Sigma for example. He seems to be "healer guy" and covers some concerns of players of those specs.
Also, class team is not huge I think(5 top) so it's hard for them to answer everyone, communication is not their primary task.
Again, you take lack of communication as "ignore" or "they don't care" which is absolutely wrong.

You're confusing what I'm saying:

• Devs not responding to each and every poster is fine.
• Devs not responding to general feedback for 5 - 6 builds, providing no perspective as to their thoughts or direction of the spec, and no updates as to the design status of the spec, is not fine.

The BrM thread is above and beyond what I would expect for communication; see something more like Blood DK or Prot Paladin where there has been semi-regular feedback from the dev team regarding upcoming changes, and a clear response to player feedback on various areas.

I've not taken anything as 'ignoring' or 'not caring' - but it is poor on behalf of the dev team that they ask players to test and provide feedback on various things, but can't take the time to share their own direction and responses. Blood DK's have had their talents and abilities re-worked multiple times based on feedback for perspective.

[Mafic]

I don't expect feedback about Rogues like other classes because playing a Rogue is the epitome of easy to learn, hard to master. Thus, most of the dev team probably don't play a Rogue beyond a rudimentary level. So, they can't discuss nuanced points or understand why Relentless Strikes or even pooling for energy before Shadow Dance matters.

The truth is that Rogues are going to stay as is for the most part with minor tweaks This has been true for so many expansions that at this point you can point to a predictable cycle with how Rogue class evolves over the life the expansion.

If the internal metrics once live Legion is in mass players hands only then they can datamine which talents work and which do not based on popularity. This is why BoS I suspect was continually buffed, when it didn't need to be buffed. Even with all the buffs, shadow step reigned supreme for high end PVE and PVP.

I would argue since Blizz doesn't really have anyone playing Rogue at high level, they rely too much on their data metrics to make decisions with talents. Legion Sub Rogue changes boil down to the fact that not many players play the spec, and in general not many players play Rogue at max level.

The reason being (going full circle with my first point) is that Rogue is easy to learn, hard to master. It is easy to use CloS, Feint, Blind, Vanish. But mastery comes when you can synchronize these at the right time. Rogue play is razor's edge that doesn't punish sloppy play too much, but it rewards heavily for flawless play.

tl;dr Devs don't play Rogues. Don't expect feedback that is nuanced or in depth. Some acknowledgement would be nice.

[Deleted]

tl;dr Devs don't play Rogues. Don't expect feedback that is nuanced or in depth. Some acknowledgement would be nice.

That actually makes a lot of sense. But it also means that they should be doing some homework and try to get more knowledgeable at the other specs. And it also means that they should take more notice of feedback of people who actually play the spec.

[Wow]

That actually makes a lot of sense. But it also means that they should be doing some homework and try to get more knowledgeable at the other specs. And it also means that they should take more notice of feedback of people who actually play the spec.

Why would they haven't cared enough to do it for years and years why would they now?

[kalaratic]

tl;dr Devs don't play Rogues. Don't expect feedback that is nuanced or in depth. Some acknowledgement would be nice.

i don't think it's fair to say that not even 1 dev understands rogue in depth just because of how complex sub is on live, so someone should have understood it. unless ur saying they threw together a bunch of different things, said "yep that should work" and that's how we have wod sub.

[shoegazing]

I honestly don't understand why you guys are complaining so much. Sub on live is so horribly boring, and having to keep up snd snd rupture SUCKS. This legion changes is way better. What exactly is so bad? Having to keep up the 20% dmg buff? Beats current upkeep...

In PvP this will be amazing.

Only reason I am still not 100% sure I want to main this is because of the look of the artifact weapons...

maybe you should try a frost DK or something else that does a lot of mindless damage in PvP without any finesse or brainpower requirements.

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Also, sub is boring in PvP? Is that some kind of sick joke or troll, or just a statement made by someone who is completely uninformed and clueless? Did you see how Pikaboo and Tempo Storm flawlessly dismantled Two Rets, One Cup at the GCDTV tournament this weekend? Pikaboo played out of his mind well, putting out insane offensive pressure, making fast paced targets swaps and pumping damage and lockdowns into the entire enemy team. It was an absolute clinic, a master class if you will, in what a subtlety rogue is capable of doing in the right hands. It was the most beautiful and nearly flawless performance I have ever seen.

Go to https://www.twitch.tv/gcdtv/v/63997372 and watch starting at about 1:42:20 so you can get an actual clue and stop embarrassing yourself with such asinine statements. You gon' learn today.

There's a reason everyone in North America plays subtlety in PvP despite the fact that combat is stronger, lol. Maybe it's boring to you, but to those of us with more than surface level PvP experience, subtlety has a level of style and flare to it that is unmatched.

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Oh, one more thing. if you're struggling to keep up SnD and rupture, I guarantee it's because you aren't using Fan of Knives nearly enough. Watch that clip again and watch how Pika is able to quickly build combo points using snake traps, hunter pets, etc to quickly generate combo points via empowered fan of knives perk. He has no trouble keeping up slice, keeping big juicy ruptures on multiple targets, throwing out Kidney Shot every CD / stun DR, and hitting a big DFA every time they go for burst.

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ur right that not every spec should have the same kind of feedback. but we, as subtlety rogues, deserve some of the most interaction with the devs and we're not getting shit. and i'm not saying this just because i main the spec and i fucking love every part of it, but because of this:



when we're on the fucking blizzcon screen getting 2 minutes of some dude saying "we're are going to completely redesign this spec", that's when i expect constant communication between the players and the devs. especially when their first iteration of shadow dance went to shit, i expected way more from celestalon to really pick up the pieces and make this thing stick. just listening to this guy during blizzcon gush on about how we're supposed to be a ninja and teleport from place to place all the time and looking at the alpha right now creates some serious dissonance from me. like the stealth-centric spec doesn't even have a fucking stealth bar and the "teleporting ninjas" had to complain so much to get shadowstep (!!!) baseline.

i get the spec was niche as fuck and they want more people to play it, but at what cost? why do they need to alienate all the people who love subtlety for what is, why can't they just fucking work with us

this is a brilliant post on this topic. i am going to tweet this directly at the devs, i hope everyone else does the same.

[Deleted]

Acknowledgement is certainly justifiable, but it really just boils down to the fact that Blizzard as a company do not believe that open dialogue with the player base is a good thing. They want our feedback, but at the same time do not really want to divulge the full details of what/how it will be considered or even used in the design process.

The BrM post is actually a great example of why they ordinarily do not make massive posts like that, as now every other spec wants the same level of post(i definitley do agree that sub deserves that level of explanation as much was promised that they have not delivered). It boils down to time really, i'm sure they could quite easily achieve that for each spec, its just that they don't want to commit the resources to do it, which is pretty frustrating to say the least for us.

I would not expect anything close to the BrM post if anything, it was a once in a blue moon type occurrence, as it is pretty much against company policy/ethos in the first place, a simple acknowledgement however would go a long way!!!

[maddnesskhaz]

Acknowledgement is certainly justifiable, but it really just boils down to the fact that Blizzard as a company do not believe that open dialogue with the player base is a good thing. They want our feedback, but at the same time do not really want to divulge the full details of what/how it will be considered or even used in the design process.

The BrM post is actually a great example of why they ordinarily do not make massive posts like that, as now every other spec wants the same level of post(i definitley do agree that sub deserves that level of explanation as much was promised that they have not delivered). It boils down to time really, i'm sure they could quite easily achieve that for each spec, its just that they don't want to commit the resources to do it, which is pretty frustrating to say the least for us.

I would not expect anything close to the BrM post if anything, it was a once in a blue moon type occurrence, as it is pretty much against company policy/ethos in the first place, a simple acknowledgement however would go a long way!!!

I agree with this; the BrM length was an anomaly - mostly due to Celestalon getting pissed off that people didn't just accept his initial reply - but the Blood DK and Prot Paladin thread(s) both have commentary as to forthcoming changes and what they want feedback on, this is the kind of thing that is not particularly time consuming but gives both confidence and direction to the people in alpha providing the feedback.

[uthinkudo]

Keep shadowstep as it is!! stop merging all abilities into one another.
Wow 2020 when we will all have 3 abilities left lols

Ps: please keep the hunter stuff in the hunters section

[Deleted]

Well just watched the Windwalker Video on the home page, and jesus they literally have talents for every scenario, ST, Cleave, Add burst and sustained mass aoe. It really is beginning to take the piss now.

Sub is going to have to be so far ahead of other leather specs in ST or we are benched plain and simple. Between monks and demon hunter melee wise have an answer to pretty much every fight mechanic without having to respec, this does not look good for rogues in general the way things are going.

I know this maybe a bit of sky is falling post, but where do i draw the line, every spec video i have watched so far melee wise have all the tools we have been asking for, i just don't get it.

Edit: In fact fuck it gonna list below all melee talents that allow active aoe focused choice and compare:

Dk
Frost-Freezing Fog, Avalanche, Frostscythe, Breath of Singragosa, Glacial Advance
Unholy-Bursting Sores, Ebon Fever, Epidemic, Shadow Infustion, Defile

DH
Havoc- Fel Mastery, Blind Fury, First Blood, Bloodlet, Master of the Glaive, Chaos Cleave, Fel Barrage, Demonic

Warrior
Arms- Sweeping Strikes, Shockwave, Fervor of battle, Bounding Stride, Bladestorm, Ravager
Fury - Shockwave, Wrecking Ball, Bounding Stride, Bladestorm, Meat Grinder, Dragon's Roar

Monk
WW - Chi Burst, Chi Wave, Rushing Jade Wind, Xuen, Whirling Dragon Punch

Druid
Feral - Lunar Inspiration, Balance affinity, Jagged Wounds, Brutal Slash

Shaman
Enchance- Boulderfist, Sundering, Crashing Storm, Fury of Air

Pala
Ret-Consecration, Zeal, Divine Hammer, Equality

Rogue
Ass- Master Poisoner, Agonizing Poison, Blood Sweat
Outlaw- Every active ability that does damage since Blade Flurry
Sub- ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!

I've depressed myself listing these out tbh, and i'm not counting DFA as an active aoe choice because that is clearly not what the talent was designed for. These are all active choices available via talents for these classes, they do not even include the aoe abilities they have baseline that synergize with them or artifact talents.

In before Shadow nova.....................oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[kalaratic]

Sub is going to have to be so far ahead of other leather specs in ST or we are benched plain and simple. Between monks and demon hunter melee wise have an answer to pretty much every fight mechanic without having to respec, this does not look good for rogues in general the way things are going.

ya and u know they're going to fuck up our damage too. there's no way we can be far and above everyone else in ST because it would break arenas so we'll just end up being like 1% ahead of the 2nd highest ST spec and that point if it's such a small gap why bother bringing a sub rogue when they offer so little

[Mafic]

ya and u know they're going to fuck up our damage too. there's no way we can be far and above everyone else in ST because it would break arenas so we'll just end up being like 1% ahead of the 2nd highest ST spec and that point if it's such a small gap why bother bringing a sub rogue when they offer so little

They will do the WoD method by damage tuning Nightblade to be a major source of Sub's damage if they are concerned for PVP.

Then again PVP has templates now and can tone down damage for PVP while not touching PVE.

Damage tuning for Sub will be very, very interesting as it has a very specific niche at this point.

[kalaratic]

They will do the WoD method by damage tuning Nightblade to be a major source of Sub's damage if they are concerned for PVP.[/I][/B]

wouldn't that just gut sub for pvp since u can dispel it? then u wouldn't be able to do dmg period in arenas. still can't believe that shit is actually dispelable

[Skayaq]

wouldn't that just gut sub for pvp since u can dispel it? then u wouldn't be able to do dmg period in arenas. still can't believe that shit is actually dispelable

At this point, that kind of shit wouldn't even surprise me.

[Mafic]

wouldn't that just gut sub for pvp since u can dispel it? then u wouldn't be able to do dmg period in arenas. still can't believe that shit is actually dispelable

Yes, but which is why it is more likely damage is adjusted via PVP templates but....

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At this point, that kind of shit wouldn't even surprise me.

Agreed. Look at how much of an investment was made with Multistrike and Rupture for WoD Sub.

[Deleted]

ya and u know they're going to fuck up our damage too. there's no way we can be far and above everyone else in ST because it would break arenas so we'll just end up being like 1% ahead of the 2nd highest ST spec and that point if it's such a small gap why bother bringing a sub rogue when they offer so little

Weirdly i'm actually not concerned about the ST damage output for PvP, as templates with throttle or buff damage as needed. As it stands with how much damage nightblade does compared to an eviscerate, if they follow the normal finisher mantra of it being slightly better DPET, which they normally do, then i'm not worried about pvp damage at all, since nightblade being dispelled is not a big deal really since it has no modifier to damage like rupture had with sang veins, yes it dispels the slow but during burst windows the target doesn't need to be snared since shadowstrike(which i think is pretty toxic tbh) and your damage will come from DFA/Evis.

Nightblades will go up during downtime to provide a bit of sustained pressure while your waiting on dr resets and pooling, whilst doing your normal sub type stuff( tho what that will be now with no gouge or shiv etc remains to be seen, prolly just tunneling auto attacks >.<). As long as shuriken toss remains then sub will have no problem setting up for burst and putting out big DFA's on demand.

[Smaxy]

Another build here we go

[Deleted]

Shadow Nova redesigned as an AoE Stealth Finisher /ibelieve

[kalaratic]

cmon guys have realistic expectations. if we're lucky they might increase nightblade duration by 3 seconds

[Deleted]

cmon guys have realistic expectations. if we're lucky they might increase nightblade duration by 3 seconds

my expectation: not many changes in this build ;PPPPPPP

But yes, a good change would be Shadow Nova: Does not damages who are under the influence of CC's, including stun. Which may require some anticipation by the rogue if he really wants to use the AoE from ShadowNova...heck dunno