Anduin Lothar vs Cairne Bloodhoof

[Friendlyimmolation]

And those are just personal thoughts. Still Goldrinn didn't taught him how to fight, didn't give him gladiator experience and didn't give him tactics. He always had them.

Yea, and Garrosh matched them all. They were equal fighters Which is why without the noticeable buff, Garrosh was able to stand toe to toe with him and even move faster in Tides of war.

[Darth-Piekus]

And still lost in the end. Your point?

[Friendlyimmolation]

And still lost in the end. Your point?

He never lost to Varian alone. And anyone would have lost to a bloodraged thrall in that situation, you can't block a stone hand, or the wind.

[Darth-Piekus]

He lost his weapon. Might as well be dead. Saved by a tentacle though.

But on to our topic. I am glad that you agree that Magic does make a huge difference.

[Friendlyimmolation]

He lost his weapon. Might as well be dead. Saved by a tentacle though.

He never let go of his weapon, the amount of effort he put into holding onto it is in the book, especially when he and Varian both fall into the water.He wasn't saved by the tentacle, it broke up the fight in which he was on the offensive, please stop making stuff up.

[Darth-Piekus]

Whatever suits your needs. All I see is that both times he was saved one by a Magnataur and a second time by a Krakken otherwise he would have been dead.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Whatever suits your needs. All I see is that both times he was saved one by a Magnataur and a second time by a Krakken otherwise he would have been dead.

you base the second fight off of nothing, nothign indicates Varian had an advantage in the second fight, Your problem in every argument is that you shut down and basically say "nu uh" to everything, but then turn around and try to say your opinion is fact.

[Graden]

Gosh.........

The moment that he stepped onto the shore of Ashenvale, Varian had felt the call of Goldrinn even more than he had during the ritual. It had grown stronger with each breath he took-so strong that he finally no longer resisted it but fully embraced it.
Clad in lightweight but durable leather armor and with Shalamayne sheathed at his side, Varian started running, running with purpose.
Genn Greymane had seen him standing there, watching the forest.
The aura of Goldrinn had grown around the king of Stormwind. All the worgen could see it, even if Varian's own peoplecould not. Genn had realized what about to happen and had been the one to tell those of Stormwind to follow as best they could later. Almost immediately after that point, Varian had disappeared among the trees.
Varian would recall little of the run through the forest. He only knew deep inside that somehow he ran faster than he should have been possible, that he seemed to outrace time itself. The spirit of Goldrinn fueled him, the great wolf's fury touching his heart and enabling Varian to push on and on toward his destination




How are these just personal thoughts? Please explain.

I'm not saying that Goldrin gave him fighting skills. Can you even read? Varian won because of the stamina buff.

[Darth-Piekus]

What can you not understan? Stamina is not unlimited. Everyone has a limit and stamina does shit if you don't have the nessesary skills to win.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Zulkhan;40151307]I could check Tides of Darkness again but I'm fairly sure it was a single blow. Right after the sword broke Orgrim's hammer reached Lothar's skull and killed him.[quote]

You were right, it was a single blow. I had problems with understanding the part after this blow, my bad english, but it seemed like he still managed to hit Doomhammer a last time as he died. And that's kinda epic.

And we shouldn't forget that he was described as big and as strong as most Orc Warriors, while he was an old man. Orgrim Doomhammer was bigger, stronger, faster and younger and still Lothars last fight was titanic and very close. The killing Blow was mere luck (no, I don't say that Doomhammer just won because of luck, everything that lead to this situation proved his skill but the way he landed this blow, Lothars Sword breaking the moment he parried an critical hit was luck).

First Baine was a Mary Sue, now the whole race? Tauren are not the perfect, they simply have a culture striving for balance. This doesn't mean they can't fuck up or give up to anger and emotions in general, there are multiple examples of Tauren obsessing over vengeance. Heck, some even cheered at the thought of setting Theramore ablaze.

Is there ony thing, one trait were the Tauren don't are perfect? They are like the shamanistic Version of Draenei.

Nothing suggests or support this opinion of yours you keep parading around. What we know for a fact is that Humans fight in a different way to compensate their weaker bodies, reason why they always had a thing for shields and sturdier equipment in general. They do not have amazing physical attributes to exploit so this approach to combat fits them, in fact only the elite Humans (and not even all of them) are shown to resort to two-handed weapons, your average Human has just sword and shield, opposed to most Horde races who has the habit of fighting with a single weapon on their hands, even your most average Grunt/Watcher/Brave.

What has the Fact that they use Sword and Shield to do with it? Especially because the Orcs often don't have Armors, it's stupid that they use two-handed weapons to begin with. A shield is probably one of the best things you could bring to a battlefield, it's a multifunctional piece of Armor and a Weapon at once. I think they use more advanced Martial Arts, because their overal culture and warfare is far more advanced than the Taurens.

Heck, even in the far-from-realistic Warcraft universe we have Barthilas as obvious example.

Yeah, but those Knights we probably won't see very often on the Battlefield, for they would do everything they can to not fight an real Battle. I refer to those guys the Orcs refered to as fiends.

I wouldn't go far to say Garrosh is equal to his father (Grom was a skillfull blademaster and a veteran who fought a shit ton more than Garrosh in his life) but he was still the son of said father. In the Hellscream short-story the Warsong of AU Draenor sees Grom's own fighting approach in the way Garrosh dealt shackled against 4 Orcs at once, he single-handely left a wake of Mogu corpses in Pandaria, proved quite a challenge for the top dog of the Shado-Pan, dealt with the player and Yrel/Durotan in WoD (using some "iron chain trick" but still impressive considered it was a 1v2 and not against 2 random scrubs) and pushed Thrall himself to the edge during the Nagrand finale.

So no, Cairne didn't deal with a scrub, he fought against an orc who was clearly acknowledged in Garadar as their top warrior (there was no other reason to justify all the trouble about making Garrosh, of all people, the Mag'har chieftain) and gathered further experience and "hardiness" in the Northrend campaign. And still, Cairne played him like a fiddle.

And I still wouldn't say you could compare Garrosh to someone like Doomhammer. You guys just cant depict it as Lothar would easily lose to Cairne, it would be a hart and close Battle.

[Graden]

What are you talking about? You make no sense. Do you even read the quotes of others?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Exhibit A: Piekus has begun to completely ignore book quotations

[Darth-Piekus]

“Warchief!” shouted Malkorok. His blades dripped scarlet, and
there were no fewer than four bodies at his feet. “Behind you!”
He barely turned swiftly enough to get Gorehowl up between him
and the large, black-haired, nearly impossibly fast human who came at
him, wielding a massive sword—Shalamayne. Varian uttered a loud,
furious howl, more suited to the ghost wolf for which he had been
named than a human. Garrosh grunted as the unique blade bit his arm
and drew blood. He parried in time to halt the blow from cutting deeper,
and shoved hard. Varian staggered back, but Shalamayne descended
again.
“The ancestors bless us indeed!” shouted Garrosh. “I knew you
would die today, but I did not hope to have the luck to be the one to
slay you!”
“I am surprised you have the guts to take me on,” Varian snarled.
“You’ve grown cowardly since we last met. First magnataur, then elementals,
then kraken to do your dirty work. Did you run and hide
when you dropped the mana bomb? I’m sure you were a safe distance
away!”
Gorehowl sang again, sweeping low in a blow designed to cut off
Varian’s legs. The human jumped and whirled in midair, only to have
Gorehowl nearly slice off his head as Garrosh followed through with
the axe’s movement.
“You are slower than you were the last time we met,” sneered Garrosh.
“You are growing older, Varian. Perhaps you should let that sniveling
son of yours be king. I will march on Stormwind when the kraken
have reduced your mighty ships to kindling. I will take your precious
boy, slap him in chains, and parade him through Orgrimmar!”
He had thought to so anger the king of Stormwind that the human
would explode in fury, fighting wildly instead of well. To his astonishment,
Varian merely grinned, dodging the swing of the axe, measuring
his next step. “Anduin might surprise you,” he said. “Even lovers of
peace despise cowards.”
Garrosh suddenly grew tired of the taunting. “Thrice before have we
fought,” Garrosh snarled, “and it is three times too many. This time,
you die—and so does all that you love.” Garrosh charged, swinging
Gorehowl, and Varian danced away. Garrosh followed, all finesse and
strategy gone. The world had narrowed to this one man and his impending
death. As the two closed in tight, their faces mere inches from
each other, they were abruptly hurled into the air.

So not only did Varian injured him but Garrosh was again recklessly attacking and Varian was dancing around him without having any problems. Personally I don't see Garrosh having the upper hand. More like a repeat of Ashenvale. So care to post any more bullshit or are you going to back up your Claims?

[Friendlyimmolation]

So not only did Varian injured him but Garrosh was again recklessly attacking and Varian was dancing around him. Personally I don't see Garrosh having the upper hand. More like a repeat of Ashenvale. So care to post any more bullshit?

And Garrosh was doing fine, Varian only hit him when Garrosh was turning around, and still pushed the blade away. following through and still nearly hitting varian when he dodged, but im sure your selective reading left that out too. They were equal and Garrosh was moving alot faster than he did in ashenvale.

So care to post any more bullshit?

Lol you, lord of all bullshit, trying to act like you actually care about canon.

[Graden]

Hahaha you can live in your own headcanon for all i care Piekus, discussing with you is impossible anyway.
You completely ignore the posts that don't suit you, only to repeat your bullshit that make zero sense over and over again.

[Darth-Piekus]

I literally posted the whole part. It can't be more canon than that. Nowhere did Garrosh had the upper hand. All I see is Garrosh getting injured while Varian was fine, Hellscream recklessly attacking without strategy while Varian was dancing around him. He was lucky the Krakken ended the battle early.

But you can pretend that Garrosh was winning if that makes you feel better.

[Friendlyimmolation]

But you can pretend that Garrosh was winning if that makes you feel better

You can keep pretending that Varian is better than Garrosh combat wise if you need to, but I ask to much to ever imagine you thinking about lore don't I? A cut doesn't end a battle, and it didn't hinder Garrosh. The rest of the battle has them as equals, varian dodges but Garrosh follows through and forces him to be on the defensive.

[Darth-Piekus]

Dancing around doesn't mean he is on the ropes as you claim him to be. I hope you can understand that. Attacking recklessly without strategy would have him killed in the long term cause he would have goten tired. I won't say that would happen 100% but it was a possibility. Nowhere though it shows that Garrosh had the upper hand.

Varian at least in my opinion based on what we saw so far is better than Garrosh in terms that he was a Gladiator trained to kill Orcs and Ogres while we find Garrosh moping over a fire.

I believe though this might have gone long enough and we are out of topic a lot.

[Deleted]

You can keep pretending that Varian is better than Garrosh combat wise if you need to, but I ask to much to ever imagine you thinking about lore don't I? A cut doesn't end a battle, and it didn't hinder Garrosh. The rest of the battle has them as equals, varian dodges but Garrosh follows through and forces him to be on the defensive.

You have to admit, the moment Garrosh started to fight without finesse and strategy he would have lost either way. Grommash wasn't a great Warrior because of his impressive body, he was described as lean so it's to assume that he wasn't as muscular as the most Orcs, but because of his skills, his tactics and his abilitiy to control his anger, letting it in and out whenever he needed it (that's also something I don't liked about WoDs Grommash. I always liked the Idea that he was lean and not some especially big and muscular mountain like other Chieftains were described, that made him far more impressive).

[Deleted]

You have to admit, the moment Garrosh started to fight without finesse and strategy he would have lost either way. Grommash wasn't a great Warrior because of his impressive body, he was described as lean so it's to assume that he wasn't as muscular as the most Orcs, but because of his skills, his tactics and his abilitiy to control his anger, letting it in and out whenever he needed it (that's also something I don't liked about WoDs Grommash. I always liked the Idea that he was lean and not some especially big and muscular mountain like other Chieftains were described, that made him far more impressive).

he doesn't look lean to me