Why so much hate for Sylvanas?

[Lex Icon]

i like her.. she's a champion of her people and not in a pathetic captain america way..

[Bigby]

Bigby is wrong in every single way.
Arthas worked for the Legion, wanted to kill all the living and raise them into mind-controlled undead. Sylvanas and the Forsaken are nothing like that.

Arthas worked for the Lich King. The Lich King (well, Ner'zhul) hated being a tool of the Legion, which extended to when he 'ascended'.

Also that whole, y'know, "Death to the living." thing they were touting in Vanilla, even before Putress.

The Forsaken do not despise being undead, he would know that if he even cared about the lore.

"What joy is there in this curse?"
"We faced such atrocities that we were denied even the release of death!"
- Sylvanas Windrunner.

She hardly commits crimes.

The Apothecarium.
Gilneas.
Silverpine Forest.

She's not going down a dark path, even the contrary!

Going from a dark-hearted revenge obsessed undead to actively trying to raise an army out of the living to keep herself safe is dark.

Garrosh' opinion about her doesn't mean a fuck... Or to stay in that line of reasoning: "Even Hitler didn't like the Jews.."

Yes it does. "What makes you any different to the Lich King now?"

You do understand that Garrosh was the one that ordered this attack?

Garrosh wanted Gilneas invaded, he didn't specify the methods. Carting those too weak to fight as slave labour in the mines to be turned into abominations and plaguing the kingdom were her own design, the latter specifically against Garrosh's orders.

But y'know, you're one of those afore mentioned insane Sylvanas fanboys. She could blow up an orphanage and you'd have some weird excuse to justify it.

[Grimskull22]

Arthas worked for the Lich King. The Lich King (well, Ner'zhul) hated being a tool of the Legion, which extended to when he 'ascended'.

Also that whole, y'know, "Death to the living." thing they were touting in Vanilla, even before Putress.


"What joy is there in this curse?"
"We faced such atrocities that we were denied even the release of death!"
- Sylvanas Windrunner.


The Apothecarium.
Gilneas.
Silverpine Forest.


Going from a dark-hearted revenge obsessed undead to actively trying to raise an army out of the living to keep herself safe is dark.


Yes it does. "What makes you any different to the Lich King now?"


Garrosh wanted Gilneas invaded, he didn't specify the methods. Carting those too weak to fight as slave labour in the mines to be turned into abominations and plaguing the kingdom were her own design, the latter specifically against Garrosh's orders.

But y'know, you're one of those afore mentioned insane Sylvanas fanboys. She could blow up an orphanage and you'd have some weird excuse to justify it.

the fanboys honestly. it's cringe-y, and essentially makes it impossible for blizzard to actually give her what-for without people flipping their collective shit.

Let her die by the hand of the ebon blade finally. please .

[Kithelle]

She is basically the Undead female version of Garrosh. She committed genocide on the Gilneans unprovoked.

This pretty much sums it up....

She bombed a innocent Gilneas and murdered its Prince while attempting to do so to its King. She is using former minions of the Lich King to raise new Undead, to something she has described as torment, and does this with no consideration if these people would actually want to be raised from the dead.

Not to mention the Sylvanas fanboys who pretend she is some kind of saint...

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Plot armour.

She's basically the Lich Queen (and admits the only difference is she serves the Horde), who went from a dark anti-hero who wanted revenge into the very thing she despised: raising people she's killed into undeath, all so that she can put an army between her and her dying for real, as she's foreseen it would end up with her in WoW-Hell alongside of Arthas. She basically suffers zero consequences for her actions in the story, and despite committing worse crimes than many people our characters have killed for less, she never gets called out on it. Her going down a dark path is fine, it's just that nobody ever goes "Hey, that Sylvanas chick is kind of bad" in the story. It makes absolutely zero sense that people talk about Garrosh going too far when she was considered despicable even by him.

Then there's her absolutely insane fanboys, who would try and defend her skinning a kitten alive as "well if it didn't want to die then it shouldn't have purred at her, the evil monstrous cat!" Apparently Genn has no right to be mad she killed his son and kingdom because OMG SHE'S SO HOT MUH WAIFU.

I would hit like if I could!

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Bigby is wrong in every single way.
Arthas worked for the Legion, wanted to kill all the living and raise them into mind-controlled undead. Sylvanas and the Forsaken are nothing like that.
The Forsaken do not despise being undead, he would know that if he even cared about the lore.
She hardly commits crimes.
She's not going down a dark path, even the contrary!
Garrosh' opinion about her doesn't mean a fuck... Or to stay in that line of reasoning: "Even Hitler didn't like the Jews.."
Doesn't make sense, right? Well, neither does his argument.

You do understand that Garrosh was the one that ordered this attack?

And here we go...one of the fanboys I mentioned...blindly pretending Sylvanas is some kind of saint.

Well she is worse than Arthas in ways...mind controlled undead know nothing of the pain or torment of being undead...they have no will to experience such things...all you have to do is play the undead starting zone for 5 minutes to know there are people who don't want to be raised as undead.

Yes...Garrosh wanted her to attack, but gosh darnnit you know what? Garrosh vividly forbade her from using the plague, what did she do? She used the plague...

[Varlamus]

Arthas worked for the Legion

I'm sorry, what? No. Bigby is correct. Arthas followed the Lich King's command. What the Lich King desired, Arthas provided, and the Lich King despised the Legion. I'd be willing to say Ner'zhul hated the Legion more than life itself. They did torture his soul for a lengthy amount of time and then decided to make him do their hard work with no chance of him actually getting freed.

Which is exactly why Kil'jaden, a powerful commander in the Legion's armies, ordered Illidan to put an end to the Lich King and his champion. Because the Lich King became a liability to the Legion and they wanted him put down. There was that whole CGI cutscene between Arthas and Illidan, if you remember.

Anyways, on to Sylvanas. I have to wholeheartedly agree that the direction being taken in Legion is a horrible one. I liked Vol'jin's development in MoP, but I feel like they ran out of material at the end of Siege, so he just got thrown into a lore bucket, never to be seen again. Then, when they still couldn't come up with anything, they just hit that big ol' recycle button and decided, "Vol'jin wasn't a great idea after all. Let's put up another poster-girl that the people want." I'm willing to bet Sylvanas becoming Warchief is going to make as much sense as Yrel going from a nobody vindicator to apparently the best flippin' Exarch this side of Draenor, who only got there because of magical, holy friendship.

I'm really just waiting for her to die in Legion, maybe Thrall too.

[Kithelle]

How is it blindly?
How am I pretending she is a saint?
There's a different with blindly pretending she's a saint, and making up the biggest bullshit in a big anti-Sylvanas circlejerk.

And those people are free to go back to the afterlife.
The difference between Arthas and Sylvanas is simple: He is evil, she isn't.
That's because he wanted to kill everyone, she doesn't.
And he used mindcontrol, she doesn't.

And why the fuck should I care about what Garrosh thinks?

LOL..

Go on and pretend she is something she isn't, she is clearly a dark if not evil being...she had committed many evil acts and you pretend they're not evil...there is no talking to you because you clearly as just sticking your fingers in your ears or covering you eyes in this case and screaming *LALALALALA* *Sylvanas is a good person* *She has done NO WRONG* ect ect...

Because you're like I said a fanboy who is pretending she is some holy saint...because you have some crush on her or something.

[The Stormbringer]

(Keep in mind I currently do not play WoW, I do, however, keep up to date on information about it)


*Spoilers* (Highlight below)
After reading that Vol'Jin dies in Legion... Why is no one (or so it seems) considering Sylvanas?
I get that her opinions are off a bit, but she could literally make thousands upon thousands of Undead to completely conquer the Alliance.
I just don't get how THAT specific thing is not a GOOD thing.

You... you don't get how Sylvanas being able to make massive armies of the Undead (against their will) to destroy the Alliance (the noble faction) is a bad thing...? I... have no words.

Sylvanas definitely uses mind control. Do you honestly think those Dalaran mages she slaughtered and then IMMEDIATELY turned into Undead would willingly be like, "Oh hey, no hard feelings about you MURDERING US just now. Let's go kill our old friends!"

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Have you done the undead starting zone? Have you read War Crimes?

She's actively seeking to kill people to raise them as undead, no doubt to strengthen the forsaken aka her army. In the novel war crimes it's stated she didn't like the horde and remained with them for power and protection, and she intended to turn her sister into a forsaken and together take over the horde/slash world.

She's evil, and at this point very cliche/predictable.

[Bigby]

It's not to keep herself safe, it's because it is the only way the Forsaken can grow as a race.

WHAT.

Are you actually defending that? Seriously? Like- really? That's despicable.

Yeah, my numbers of soldiers are getting kinda low. Mind if I slaughter these people and raise them as undead? Yeah, she's a real saint.

But hey, do not let facts get in the way of headcanon!

Edge of Night. Read it. It's from her bloody point of view.

[Berengil]

IF

she only wanted Tirisfal and silverpine ( and maybe alterac mountains so she would have the lake behind UC)

IF

she forswore all use of necromancy other than to heal existing Forsaken ( not to increase their numbers any further)

IF

she forswore all plague/bioweapon reasearch

and IF

she released all Alliance prisoners and declared ( on pain of Final death) the use of torture forbidden in her territory

THEN, AND ONLY THEN peace with the Forsaken would be possible. Until then, there is only the Light, fire, and steel for her.

[Zolaris192]

because she violates safe spaces

like genn greymane

[Bigby]

Unlike you I DID read it.
It tells us exactly how she starts caring about her people.

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And who is going to bring "the light, fire and steel"?
The Alliance cannot even protect their own cities, let alone attack something else.

You're either very naive or wilfully ignorant.

She doesn't care about her people, she cares that they survive so they can keep her safe because she realises after what she's done she is going to the exact same place Arthas is.

The Forsaken were truly a nation now: a fetid, gore-caked, hideous mass of lifeless husks, skilled in combat, devastating with the arcane arts, and unhindered by fetters of morality. They had been honed into the perfect weapon. Her weapon. And they had struck the killing blow for which she had built them. She cared nothing for their fate.

"Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!"

Horror.
This was to be her eternity: the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish.

Sylvanas answered, but not right away. The lurking oblivion filled her with terror. Even now, she felt the tempest rage around her. This was her only way out. But she didn't want to give her assent out of fear. She waited until she felt something more. A fellowship. A sisterhood. Sisters. Separate, they were all trapped. But together, they were free… and with them, she could postpone her fate.

The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite.

[Kithelle]

Sylvanas must decide how far she'll go to protect her people... and whether they're more precious to her than her soul.

There.
You don't put that line there if it wasn't a valid question.
It tells us she might be willing to sacrifice her soul for the Forsaken.
Which other leader would do that?

That doesn't tell me anything...that is a statement that she may have to choose...

You know...you remind exactly of those teenage girls who defended the boston marathon bomber, blind and willing to say any stupid thing because you have the hots for her.

[Varlamus]

It tells us she might be willing to sacrifice her soul for the Forsaken. Which other leader would do that?

Like how Grommash Hellscream sacrificed his life to end the Blood Curse? Like how Velen sacrificed his life to purge the Void Star? Like how Bolvar sacrificed what remained of his life to take the mantle of Lich King, so no one else had to?

And as Excellion said above. It was phrased as an internal question. A struggle of whether or not she would be able to chose between her people and herself. Not saying she will, unlike the people I've listed above, who already have.

[Kallisto]

My problem with her (well, not her so much as her fans that can see her do no wrong) is this; I have no problem with the undead staying undead. If what awaits them in the afterlife is the same thing that awaited Arthas and awaits Sylvannas, then by all means, you try to stay 'alive' for as long as you possibly can. HOWEVER. Creating more undead -is- a monstrous act. She is purposely damning countless others because she wants the biggest meat-shield she can hide behind. In WC3, and in vanilla wow through cata and possibly longer, she herself says "what are we, if not slaves to this torment?" 'This torment' being undeath. Slaves to a curse. And she's willing to inflict this curse upon as many people she can if it means she can hold out a little bit longer. She doesn't and has never cared about her people.

Is that characterization, or poor writing? No, I don't believe so. But the sheer amount of Sylvannas fanboys rushing to defend her honor and insist that she DOES care, that she IS doing the right thing (not for her but for the forsaken or even the horde) is just amazing to me. She has no compassion, and that's fine for a character to be like that in a story. But to say she is compassionate when every single story says the exact opposite is what annoys me about her fans, and thus, her.

But if she's forced into a war in which her people are killed during it what else is she to do. Either she has to A) Replenish which means raising those of the enemies or just let everyone eventually win over the forsaken from attrition. The forsaken have the right to exist, grow and repopulate as much as anyone.

[The Stormbringer]

1. They are not the noble faction.
2. You know the devs literally said they aren't mind-controlled? Like.. literally..

1.) Yeah, they kinda are. The faction that tends to try for peace and equality is the Alliance. The faction that spared a violent tyrant instead of killing him is the Alliance. The faction that suffers from devastating attacks and yet does not choose eye-for-an-eye is the Alliance.

2.) Maybe it isn't actual "Mind Control" as in complete domination, but the process of turning people into Undead is violent and Mind Altering. In the Plaguelands, there were farmers who had come to settle. We helped them train, armed them, fought alongside them. Then when the Val'kyr resurrect them, suddenly they're fighting against us? This does not strike you as the least bit evil?

[Singarti]

Those lot like Kangodo are the exact reason why people don't like Sylvanas in addition to her being a shallow character that is written into a corner. Rabid obsession with a dead reanimated female corpse that practices genocide on a regular basis is not good for your mental health.

[Bigby]

I'll take option three: Intelligent.That is false.
Nothing in the entire lore says such a thing.

I just quoted lines from a story that says just that.

I can understand why an Alliance fanboy might believe such a thing, but the actual lore tell us something completely different.

Coming from a delusional Sylvanas fanboy I worry for your mental health when I read your defences.

So she gets emotional when she hears about their fate?
Thank you for proving she does indeed care about them.

Wow, you really are delusional. The text states, black and white, told from her point of view that she doesn't give a damn about them and somehow you construed that as the total opposite?

1. It was a vision from the Valkyr, not to be trusted.

Irrelevant. Sylvanas still believes it's her fate.

2. That is her eternity, not that of the Forsaken.

Irrelevant. We're discussing Sylvanas' beliefs, not that Forsaken's.

She's talking about the Val'kyr, not the Forsaken. And what exactly is the issue?

It shows that she is agreeing to the deal because she wants to avoid her WoW-Hell.

I know that line.
But you don't know what it means. In the words of Blizzard: "You think you do, but you don't."
A bulwark against the infinite:
1. Doesn't mean it's to shield from her demise.
2. Doesn't turn them into a meatshield.

If it's not referring to her demise, what is it referring to then? She's suffering for eternity in hell, described as:

This was to be her eternity: the endless void, the dark, unknown realm of anguish.

Sounds infinite to me. What other 'infinite' does she have to shield herself from?

You know what might even prove my point most?

There.
You don't put that line there if it wasn't a valid question.
It tells us she might be willing to sacrifice her soul for the Forsaken.
Which other leader would do that?

No, it tells us that it's a QUESTION she must ANSWER.

If it said, "Sylvanas WILL decide that her people are more precious than her soul" then you would be correct. Instead, it's alluding to a question about Sylvanas. What are her people worth versus her going to WoW-Hell? In other words, she may decide 'screw 'em, I'm more important'. She may not. We don't know yet.

With Genn and Jaina I think that is a bold claim to make. Especially after the last one committed genocide on innocent people.

I don't think you know what that word means.

Then again you're trying to defend Sylvanas whilst claiming Jaina committed genocide, which tells us about how unbias you are as if that was already a question.

[Kithelle]

It's a statement because it's a real dilemma.
For a dilemma to be a dilemma there have to be two valid options.
QED: Sylvanas cares enough for her people to perhaps give up her soul.

For a minute I thought the anti-Sylvanas crowd couldn't get any worse.
Thank you for proving me wrong.

It's a statement because it's a statement...it says nothing about her...it just says she will have a choice, plain and simple. Gives no insight on what she will choose...doesn't lend anything to your claims she is a decent person that cares about her people and not just herself. Nope...not one bit...just says she may have to make a choice in her future...which will likely be herself over her people unless the writers want to make her yet another generic redemption tale...

Only thing proven in this thread is you're trying to be Sylvanas's white knight...unlike RL white knights who have a .000001% chance of getting with the scum bag females they defend...you have a 0% chance of getting with Sylvanas.

[Borigrad]

Sylvanas sucks. Contempt for her people, Hatred for all others, uses cruel methods of war, tortures people (Koltira says hello,) mind controls people (One of her abilities in WC3 and HotS is called Mind Control, another possession) Oh also this ability: "Black Arrow — 45 yrd range. Curses an enemy, inflicting 80,000 Shadow damage every 3 sec for 30 sec. If the target dies while afflicted by Black Arrow, a Skeleton will be summoned from the target's corpse." Which is her ability in WoW, forcing people into undeath against their will under her control, specifically her enemies.

On top of all that she has Plot Armor, a boring personality and has almost zero character depth. At least Garrosh had some growth, Sylvanas hasn't changed since killing Garithos in WC3:TFT.

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No, you quoted a line where she is crying..
Crying is what people do when they have feelings.

Sociopaths and Narcissists also cry, they have no feelings for anyone but themselves. Being brought to tears cause you fear your own fate, isn't exactly emotionally deep.