[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Teleros]

I just really don't get why they don't just restrict it so we have one of each instead. Then balance us as if we have GBoM on ourselves (allowing for some skill in switching target for GBoM throughout the fight).

Because part of our class fantasy is buffing / supporting others, and they want Ret to retain at least a part of that fantasy. I think.

[Ulthane]

I just really don't get why they don't just restrict it so we have one of each instead. Then balance us as if we have GBoM on ourselves (allowing for some skill in switching target for GBoM throughout the fight).

Something I brought up a long while ago in this thread with a whole row of talents dedicated to Greater Blessings.

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Yeah, I'm assuming how much we get per stack is going to get nerfed. On Alpha right now it makes our damage inside the window burst damage and outside of the window normal sustained ST damage, already said this though. On the other hand, SW is going to be really good for cleave too, haven't had a chance to test a cleave fight yet in a raid, going to try it in a dungeon later.

That seems fine, JV is definitely an interesting mechanic. Fires of justice might pull ahead of zeal though, not sure because the first tuning pass hasn't happened yet.I would much rather see instant damage with a longer CD on ES,and obviously the longer duration on judgement. I'm assuming that'll happen sometime along the way, but I'll be pushing for it until it does. They definitely have to know that HoPo isn't as smooth with this mechanic as rage is, but a longer duration would help that.

Exactly, though I just prefer Zeal because it damn hits harder and I like that

Also ES has to be instant in some fashion and longer Judgment duration or all hell gonna break loose. If poor mobility our mechanic has to have higher uptimes.

[ruiizu]

A couple thoughts:

* I don't like the new Execution Sentence, but it may be deceptively powerful. If timed right, it may be possible to get 3 HP spenders off within a single Judgment window. That is, ES -> (filler) -> Judgment -> TV -> builder -> TV with ES landing somewhere between Judgment and the last TV. Also consider that if you have a DP proc that is going to expire before Judgment is off CD, you could use ES beforehand.

* How does Fires of Justice interact with Sanctified Wrath? SW gives us a +dmg/haste stack per HP spent, but Fire's proc decreases the cost. Does that mean TV would give us 2 or 3 stacks? I could see it going either way.

One big problem actually is when you have to delay using Judgment. In some cases you don't have full holy power when Judgment comes off CD, but Judgment actually hits really hard. Not using it means delaying future Judgments, but using it might also mean you don't get 2 Templar's Verdicts off during the Judgment period. Also you have the issue of Wake of Ashes, which often comes off CD when you have "extra" Holy Power still waiting around.

With the issues of Wake of Ashes and Blade of Justice/Wrath "two holy power" generation, I had a thought: couldn't they also add a mechanic that causes extra Holy Power beyond 5 to do something? Think Monks, where they create a Chi Sphere if they exceed maximum Chi via their talent that can then be "picked up." Chi is actually more similar to Holy Power than Combo Points or Rage, and it might do well to have a similar function. Think about this situation...

Judgment is just coming off CD, you've got 4 Holy Power. Crusader Strike is on CD, but Blade of Wrath is up. Wake of Ashes is also about to finish CD. You use Judgment and proceed to Templar's Verdict, but now what? You could use Blade of Wrath and then Templar's Verdict, but then you're wasting CD time on Wake of Ashes. In addition, if you use Wake of Ashes after that 2nd Templar's Verdict, now Judgment is on CD but you're at 5 Holy Power.

This has happened several times in my testing and the answers are never good. You could make it worse too---what if Divine Purpose also procs if you've talented that? In those scenarios, you have Holy Power waiting around, but no Judgment. Do you just waste the Holy Power on finishers with no Judgment up (and take the penalty so you can continue your attacks as normal)? That's the best conclusion I can really come to.

But what if instead you were at 4 Holy Power, Judgment is ready, Blade is ready, Wake is ready---you Judge, Templar's Verdict, hit Wake---now something special happens. That wasted Holy Power either explodes (more damage, but less than 1/3rd of a Templar's Verdict), becomes a holy pillar you can absorb for that Holy Power after (you just walk through it), or something else. It eliminates the choice of either A. Waste Holy Power, or B. Waste CD time.

That's my opinion, anyway. Though I think Judgment is more the culprit than anything. Having Judgment be a hard hitting ability with a short CD but longer duration seems counter to the whole "burst window," but it changes you to have meaningful choices: Judgment becomes not just a "buff" attack, but an attack you also use when other attacks aren't ready or something is out of range. Does it reduce the skill window? Sort of---but it also removes awkward, uncomfortable situations like the aforementioned (and very real possibility).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I'd like to think they know of the issues but every time a dev posts, I start thinking they don't. Thus my head hurts.

[Ulthane]

One big problem actually is when you have to delay using Judgment. In some cases you don't have full holy power when Judgment comes off CD, but Judgment actually hits really hard. Not using it means delaying future Judgments, but using it might also mean you don't get 2 Templar's Verdicts off during the Judgment period. Also you have the issue of Wake of Ashes, which often comes off CD when you have "extra" Holy Power still waiting around.

With the issues of Wake of Ashes and Blade of Justice/Wrath "two holy power" generation, I had a thought: couldn't they also add a mechanic that causes extra Holy Power beyond 5 to do something? Think Monks, where they create a Chi Sphere if they exceed maximum Chi via their talent that can then be "picked up." Chi is actually more similar to Holy Power than Combo Points or Rage, and it might do well to have a similar function. Think about this situation...

Judgment is just coming off CD, you've got 4 Holy Power. Crusader Strike is on CD, but Blade of Wrath is up. Wake of Ashes is also about to finish CD. You use Judgment and proceed to Templar's Verdict, but now what? You could use Blade of Wrath and then Templar's Verdict, but then you're wasting CD time on Wake of Ashes. In addition, if you use Wake of Ashes after that 2nd Templar's Verdict, now Judgment is on CD but you're at 5 Holy Power.

This has happened several times in my testing and the answers are never good. You could make it worse too---what if Divine Purpose also procs if you've talented that? In those scenarios, you have Holy Power waiting around, but no Judgment. Do you just waste the Holy Power on finishers with no Judgment up (and take the penalty so you can continue your attacks as normal)? That's the best conclusion I can really come to.

But what if instead you were at 4 Holy Power, Judgment is ready, Blade is ready, Wake is ready---you Judge, Templar's Verdict, hit Wake---now something special happens. That wasted Holy Power either explodes (more damage, but less than 1/3rd of a Templar's Verdict), becomes a holy pillar you can absorb for that Holy Power after (you just walk through it), or something else. It eliminates the choice of either A. Waste Holy Power, or B. Waste CD time.

That's my opinion, anyway. Though I think Judgment is more the culprit than anything. Having Judgment be a hard hitting ability with a short CD but longer duration seems counter to the whole "burst window," but it changes you to have meaningful choices: Judgment becomes not just a "buff" attack, but an attack you also use when other attacks aren't ready or something is out of range. Does it reduce the skill window? Sort of---but it also removes awkward, uncomfortable situations like the aforementioned (and very real possibility).

Actually that's a damn amazing idea. You know what screw it.

Holy Power: no longer had a cap?

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Build build build then unleash hell during Judgment. That way the duration as is won't be ass

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Yea! Remove Holy Power cap!!! Or raise that shit high or something

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Allows Conviction to come back to generate an extra Holy Power and Divine Purpose could be Different in a way

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Think massive generation but then you just go dump ham during Judgment without any real restriction on your generation?

[Taeldorian]

Actually that's a damn amazing idea. You know what screw it.

Holy Power: no longer had a cap?

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Build build build then unleash hell during Judgment. That way the duration as is won't be ass

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Yea! Remove Holy Power cap!!! Or raise that shit high or something

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Allows Conviction to come back to generate an extra Holy Power and Divine Purpose could be Different in a way

So you basically want rage? Interesting. I said before I'd take any other spender other than energy over holy power, so I can't argue about it, but I will say that in an expansion where their main focus for classes is distinctiveness between each spec/class, us getting a rage/maelstrom like spender is not going to happen. Shamans already got that, no way in hell they'd give a renamed rage spender to us. With the colossus judgement of lothars smash mechanic that we have, the only way it won't be clunky is either 1. Higher duration on judgement with a lower CD which caters to holy power, or 2. Give us a rage/maelstrom like spender so we can actually make use of this mechanic. Those are the only two ways I see this working.

SW does make us do good damage outside of the window, but its on a 2 minute CD. It is definitely an amazing CD, but it is just a CD after all.

[Ulthane]

So you basically want rage? Interesting. I said before I'd take any other spender other than energy over holy power, so I can't argue about it, but I will say that in an expansion where their main focus for classes is distinctiveness between each spec/class, us getting a rage/maelstrom like spender is not going to happen. Shamans already got that, no way in hell they'd give a renamed rage spender to us.

Oh no. Not like rage.

Think how it is now but instead of 5 Holy power the cap might be over 10 - 20. Or a mechanic that happens at 5 Holy power so you are not wasting hp. It would function the same as is but this means you wouldn't have to worry about hitting a cap. You can just keep going and spenders would still be 3 or so.

[Alindra]

I forgot to say this last time, but thanks @Loewenherz for posting those theorycrafting Q&A. I wasn't following that thread, so I was unaware of how many questions were answered (esp ones relevant to us).

This is the most ridiculous answer I've seen. Are they trying to say that our abilities receive a 3% nerf everytime we use GBoM? If not, how on earth do you tune our damage around giving another raid member ticking health and mana?

As others have said, my interpretation was that we'd just be balanced around having X GBoM's active (0.0 < X < 3.0), whatever X turns out to be. If it instead reduces our damage per active GBoM, then that's just silly.

One big problem actually is when you have to delay using Judgment. In some cases you don't have full holy power when Judgment comes off CD, but Judgment actually hits really hard. Not using it means delaying future Judgments, but using it might also mean you don't get 2 Templar's Verdicts off during the Judgment period. Also you have the issue of Wake of Ashes, which often comes off CD when you have "extra" Holy Power still waiting around.

With the issues of Wake of Ashes and Blade of Justice/Wrath "two holy power" generation, I had a thought: couldn't they also add a mechanic that causes extra Holy Power beyond 5 to do something? Think Monks, where they create a Chi Sphere if they exceed maximum Chi via their talent that can then be "picked up." Chi is actually more similar to Holy Power than Combo Points or Rage, and it might do well to have a similar function. Think about this situation...

Oh absolutely. That's one benefit of ES, the ability to dump HP before Judgment comes off cooldown but still have it affected by the debuff.

That being said, I really don't look forward to trying to handle all the different permutations of CD / HP / Judgment clashes that are bound to happen. I really wish that we either had a larger HP pool (say 10 HP max), charges on Judgment (we can delay it to pool more HP, or upcoming target swaps, or when we're out of range due to mechanics, etc), or both (my preference). I'm not hopeful that they would make either of those changes, though, since in their words "class mechanics are firm, but not necessarily set in stone yet."

I wonder if they'd at least allow Wake of Ashes to apply temporary HP like Rogue's Anticipation.

[Ulthane]

Also means you could build up so you can do Divine Storm spam during aoe.

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I forgot to say this last time, but thanks @Loewenherz for posting those theorycrafting Q&A. I wasn't following that thread, so I was unaware of how many questions were answered (esp ones relevant to us).



As others have said, my interpretation was that we'd just be balanced around having X GBoM's active (0.0 < X < 3.0), whatever X turns out to be. If it instead reduces our damage per active GBoM, then that's just silly.



Oh absolutely. That's one benefit of ES, the ability to dump HP before Judgment comes off cooldown but still have it affected by the debuff.

That being said, I really don't look forward to trying to handle all the different permutations of CD / HP / Judgment clashes that are bound to happen. I really wish that we either had a larger HP pool (say 10 HP max), charges on Judgment (we can delay it to pool more HP, or upcoming target swaps, or when we're out of range due to mechanics, etc), or both (my preference). I'm not hopeful that they would make either of those changes, though, since in their words "class mechanics are firm, but not necessarily set in stone yet."

I wonder if they'd at least allow Wake of Ashes to apply temporary HP like Rogue's Anticipation.

That is kind of what I just said but you refined it better. @Taeldorian this is what I meant. Judgment charges + more HP cap could affect gameplay dramatically if they want to adhere to this formula.

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Also wake granting temporary would be damn amazing. Love it. Do it.

[Alindra]

Also means you could build up so you can do Divine Storm spam during aoe.

Exactly.

If we're supposed to have a "window of opportunity," we need to be able to properly prepare for it. Right now, we can't. We're also hampered by Judgment having such a short CD and duration. I don't think they'd want to increase the relative uptime (decreased CD and/or increased duration) or it just becomes something that is always active. That's why I think charges (even if only a max of 2) would work. It'd have the same relative uptime, but we could use them more strategically.

[Taeldorian]

Also means you could build up so you can do Divine Storm spam during aoe.

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That is kind of what I just said but you refined it better. @Taeldorian this is what I meant. Judgment charges + more HP cap could affect gameplay dramatically if they want to adhere to this formula.

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Also wake granting temporary would be damn amazing. Love it. Do it.

Ah I see, okay so basically raise the cap on holy power? I'd be fine with that, but nobody on the alpha forums including myself is really pushing for that or even mentioning it. I feel like it's way to late to ask for it now, I'd say just lower the CD on judgement while increasing the duration which caters to what we currently have, including the mobility issue. That, or they do what you're suggesting. I'm going to be sticking to ret anyway as a main, so I hope they listen to feedback somewhere along the line about this.

[Ulthane]

So to break it down.
-Wake of Ashes would grant 5 temp HP that goes past your cap like a super Divine Purpose
-Judgment at 2 or 3 charges
-Holy Power at 10

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Exactly.

If we're supposed to have a "window of opportunity," we need to be able to properly prepare for it. Right now, we can't. We're also hampered by Judgment having such a short CD and duration. I don't think they'd want to increase the relative uptime (decreased CD and/or increased duration) or it just becomes something that is always active. That's why I think charges (even if only a max of 2) would work. It'd have the same relative uptime, but we could use them more strategically.

2 would be doable 3 optimal.

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Ah I see, okay so basically raise the cap on holy power? I'd be fine with that, but nobody on the alpha forums including myself is really pushing for that or even mentioning it. I feel like it's way to late to ask for it now, I'd say just lower the CD on judgement while increasing the duration which caters to what we currently have, including the mobility issue. That, or they do what you're suggesting. I'm going to be sticking to ret anyway as a main, so I hope they listen to feedback somewhere along the line about this.

If they don't do duration then holy power increase and Judgment at 2 - 3 charges would fix a ton

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They could also increase how much the generators make by 1 as well. So you could build up fairly quickly.

CD at 2
BoJ at 3

[Taeldorian]

So to break it down.
-Wake of Ashes would grant 5 temp HP that goes past your cap like a super Divine Purpose
-Judgment at 2 or 3 charges
-Holy Power at 10

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2 would be doable 3 optimal.

I'd love for this to happen, but do they even want ret to be that versatile? Think about it, we're so far looking good in terms of ST/Burst ST/cleave/burst cleave, I don't think they want us to be good at that much. I mean no other class is besides DH's but they're OP anyway.

Either way, I'd love for any of those things to be in the game, but at the current point in time I think judgement having a lower CD and higher duration is the only thing they'd be up for considering they stated in the most recent build everything is firm but not completely set in stone. No idea though, up to everyone here that wants to main/does main/will main a paladin to provide that feedback.

@Ulthane I could see judgement getting 2-3 charges though, small change but fixes a ton. Also fits the theme of charges that we have across most of our abilities. I'll push for this too

[Ulthane]

I'd love for this to happen, but do they even want ret to be that versatile? Think about it, we're so far looking good in terms of ST/Burst ST/cleave/burst cleave, I don't think they want us to be good at that much. I mean no other class is besides DH's but they're OP anyway.

Either way, I'd love for any of those things to be in the game, but at the current point in time I think judgement having a lower CD and higher duration is the only thing they'd be up for considering they stated in the most recent build everything is firm but not completely set in stone. No idea though, up to everyone here that wants to main/does main/will main a paladin to provide that feedback.

@Ulthane I could see judgement getting 2-3 charges though, small change but fixes a ton. Also fits the theme of charges that we have across most of our abilities. I'll push for this too

Well given our mobility is shit and our uptime is shit given bad mobility circumstances because we need to attack something and we cant attack if far away this gives us something to build up during it.

You build hp, you judge, you dump dump judge finish dump rebuild. Oh you got knocked back well you have charges to regain to redo it again. Unlike dh we have huge weaknesses and this would make the rotation fluid. Sure a lower cd and higher uptime Judgment would work without a doubt but if they want their design to work as it is now then more hp, more generation more charges of Judgment.

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@Alindra @ruiizu both of you get cookies.

[Taeldorian]

Well given our mobility is shit and our uptime is shit given bad mobility circumstances because we need to attack something and we cant attack if far away this gives us something to build up during it.

You build hp, you judge, you dump dump judge finish dump rebuild. Oh you got knocked back well you have charges to regain to redo it again. Unlike dh we have huge weaknesses and this would make the rotation fluid. Sure a lower cd and higher uptime Judgment would work without a doubt but if they want their design to work as it is now then more hp, more generation more charges of Judgment.

I'm all for it, but I'm not sure if they'd do these changes this far into Alpha especially after saying most things are firm/set in stone. That's why I'm saying I could only see them fixing judgement with either 2 or 3 charges/lower CD higher duration. That's the most I could see happening but who knows, it's blizzard. Not leaving ret as my main despite what they do here but I seriously hope we get 2 or 3 charges of judgement. That would most definitely fix a lot, it would also make the greater judgement talent somewhat irrelevant so they'd have to change that/remove it.

[Ulthane]

I'm all for it, but I'm not sure if they'd do these changes this far into Alpha especially after saying most things are firm/set in stone. That's why I'm saying I could only see them fixing judgement with either 2 or 3 charges/lower CD higher duration. That's the most I could see happening but who knows, it's blizzard. Not leaving ret as my main despite what they do here but I seriously hope we get 2 or 3 charges of judgement. That would most definitely fix a lot, it would also make the greater judgement talent somewhat irrelevant so they'd have to change that/remove it.

The beautiful thing is that it's not an overhaul but more so an addon if anything. So it's doable I'd think.

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2 charges with longer duration or 3 charges with current duration

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Or 1 as it is with lower cd and longer duration

[Taeldorian]

The beautiful thing is that it's not an overhaul but more so an addon if anything. So it's doable I'd think.

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2 charges with longer duration or 3 charges with current duration

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Or 1 as it is with lower cd and longer duration

Very true, I really hope they do this. I'll take any of them, they're all major improvements.

[Ulthane]

Why it's good:
-Increases value of both DP and SW
-Increases uptime of dump window for st.
-Increases value of aoe due to spam dump without Judgment
-Increases value of Holy Power
-Increases value of Wake of Ashes

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Hell also makes ES in its current form good

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Right now Rage has a decay rate. What I was thinking until combat was over, the resource doesn't degenerate. There's also the fact I believe Warriors have quite a few Rage dumps. Our *dumps* of sorts are TV/JV and Divine Storm. That was the original intent of what my post was.

As for being the same. Well right now the only differenating thing we got is the Holy Power(5 charges and makes it clunky). That's the only difference we got from Warrior's Colossus Smash window gameplay.

(I realize it's late to talk mechanics but this is what happens).

[Ulthane]

Right now Rage has a decay rate. What I was thinking until combat was over, the resource doesn't degenerate. There's also the fact I believe Warriors have quite a few Rage dumps. Our *dumps* of sorts are TV/JV and Divine Storm. That was the original intent of what my post was.

As for being the same. Well right now the only differenating thing we got is the Holy Power(5 charges and makes it clunky). That's the only difference we got from Warrior's Colossus Smash window gameplay.

(I realize it's late to talk mechanics but this is what happens).

Which I think 10 would fix a lot of that.