[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[RsinRC]

No, you never understood my pov when it came to talent choice in trees. We have a good and viable spec that works pretty much everywhere except for 2s...more choice would make it better, but in the end it won't be a big deal. Sure a single talent spec sucks design wise if you're measure is diversity, but talent choice diversity comes 2nd to having at least one viable set up.

I just don't care if we get more choice in the end. So often you are going to get a cookie cutter regardless of the amount of choice available. Obviously the spec is better designed if real choice is put in, but real choice is extremely difficult to create.

it's just not a high priority thing for me. I'm not saying it can't be for you, but it just isn't for me.

I did and do understand you and you still say the same even after a post ago you said less choice sucks.

It will be a big deal because in the end we still struggle in a scenario people want to enjoy. There are cookie cutter builds for different situations. Not a cookie cutter build for EVERYTHING. But right now our class is stuck with the former.

Real choice isn't difficult to come up with, I can come up with hundreds, people can come up with hundreds of different ideas/choices AND make them balanced. So can the people at blizzard that get paid to create and balance these things. Granted it takes time. I still can't understand why choice is difficult to create when I see other specs with tons of choices for different things.

It isn't a high priority for you but yet you defend that not having choice doesn't matter in the end when in reality having choice can so why say otherwise.

It is difficult to put this across when a person (you) will defend the lack of choices by saying we're fine, actually THE BEST, but then say I don't care it's not a high priority for me it's not something I care about when it's something that others have actual concerns that we face. So why defend our lack of choices knowing at this point that solving some of these issues can be addressed by changing almost useless talents in the pvp tree?

[Kretan]

It feels like I said it at least 10 times in this thread alone: Stay realistic. You are so overhyped, it hurts. And even worse, you spread wrong information to those not in alpha.

When BGs were available
1.) Shadow overall damage was overtuned
2.) SoI worked on Dots
3.) SoI damage was massivly bugged and overtuned
4.) We had at least 10-15% more crit so Auspicious Spirit insanity generation was crazy. AS insanity was nerfed, and stats in pvp were reduced.

And the Mind trauma talent is very stupid to begin with. I doubt it will make it live.

"Best spec in the game" is simply wrong. There are lots of broken specs that deal so much more damage than us, specs that also have escape utility and better survivability. Please, I don't know why you are doing it, just stop spreading misinformation.

It really bothers me.

Thinking shadow is going to be weak in BGs is wrong lol. You'd have to be severely disconnected from what is good in BGs vs arena to think shadow's legion design is anything but strong as hell for bgs.

Any time a spec has high dot damage they are instantly among the best in BGs/RBGs. Boomies, aff locks, UH dks.........dots dots dots. Shadow is primarily a dot class, and mind trauma takes the dot idea to the edge of stupidity......I don't know why they put it in but ok I'll take it if they offer.

And "best spec in the game" is in reference to BGs only. I don't know if that was unclear, but that's no comment on arena. If shadow isn't THE best in BGs, it HAS to be in the discussion among the best for your ranged DDs. Things like survivability, mobility, escape utility.....these things don't really matter in large scale pvp (at least they are so mitigated to be nearly useless). It just makes positioning much more important to not take fights at times and knowing when to leave. Instead of needing to kite a melee in a cramped arena, now you hang back and sink in to your team's back line to force extreme over extension. It's the reason shadow always shined in RBGs even when weak in arena....it's weaknesses are not important in large scale PVP.

On top of that shadow gets great self heals, mind control (actually strong in BGs/RBGs if used with coordination), MASS DISPEL, purge, psyfiend/void shift, and a cast-able sprint on a target. Then you add mass CC through psychic scream or if you want to stay at range you talent the stun. It's nuts to think shadow is not set up to be strong in BGs/RBGs. They have always been able to challenge for top damage while maintaining healer levels of dispels on top of adding passive self healing, dispelling immunities, and purging.

I'd like you to expand on why you think shadow is weak in RBGs/BGs, because mobility/survivability/escape utility are not good reasons. Heck, survivability might be a plus in shadow's case for bgs because classes are allowed to free cast a LOT more in large scale pvp with significantly less training leading to void shield being significantly more effective; classes don't get trained in bgs to even a fraction of the amount they do in arena. Do you think damage is going to be low because by any measure of utility we are fantastic in bgs, and being a dot-centric spec almost guarantees us to be near the top in damage just based on history.

==============================

As for arena, I'm guessing shadow is going to suck very badly at 2s unless somehow dampening style comps work. In 3s, there's potential to go both ways, but if melee stay like they are shadow won't be around.

[KrakHed]

Okay people on the alpha, I have a mission for you ! We need to find where to get http://legion.wowhead.com/item=139569/claw-of-nzoth

Speaking of people with the Alpha, has anyone been able to do the Order Hall campaign? Also, have you managed to unlock any more Xal'atath history?

[Kretan]

I did and do understand you and you still say the same even after a post ago you said less choice sucks.

It will be a big deal because in the end we still struggle in a scenario people want to enjoy. There are cookie cutter builds for different situations. Not a cookie cutter build for EVERYTHING. But right now our class is stuck with the former.

Real choice isn't difficult to come up with, I can come up with hundreds, people can come up with hundreds of different ideas/choices AND make them balanced. So can the people at blizzard that get paid to create and balance these things. Granted it takes time. I still can't understand why choice is difficult to create when I see other specs with tons of choices for different things.

It isn't a high priority for you but yet you defend that not having choice doesn't matter in the end when in reality having choice can so why say otherwise.

It is difficult to put this across when a person (you) will defend the lack of choices by saying we're fine, actually THE BEST, but then say I don't care it's not a high priority for me it's not something I care about when it's something that others have actual concerns that we face. So why defend our lack of choices knowing at this point that solving some of these issues can be addressed by changing almost useless talents in the pvp tree?

I'm not really defending the lack of choice, and that's what you keep missing. I just don't care if we have choice. Feel free to care about it yourself, but it's just not on my priority list. Doesn't make you're opinion wrong or invalid. I'd like choice if the option was available, but I don't care if we get the option. Being bad at twos isn't a big deal to me personally.

[RsinRC]

Thinking shadow is going to be weak in BGs is wrong lol. You'd have to be severely disconnected from what is good in BGs vs arena to think shadow's legion design is anything but strong as hell for bgs.

Any time a spec has high dot damage they are instantly among the best in BGs/RBGs. Boomies, aff locks, UH dks.........dots dots dots. Shadow is primarily a dot class, and mind trauma takes the dot idea to the edge of stupidity......I don't know why they put it in but ok I'll take it if they offer.

And "best spec in the game" is in reference to BGs only. I don't know if that was unclear, but that's no comment on arena. If shadow isn't THE best in BGs, it HAS to be in the discussion among the best for your ranged DDs. Things like survivability, mobility, escape utility.....these things don't really matter in large scale pvp (at least they are so mitigated to be nearly useless). It just makes positioning much more important to not take fights at times and knowing when to leave. Instead of needing to kite a melee in a cramped arena, now you hang back and sink in to your team's back line to force extreme over extension. It's the reason shadow always shined in RBGs even when weak in arena....it's weaknesses are not important in large scale PVP.

On top of that shadow gets great self heals, mind control (actually strong in BGs/RBGs if used with coordination), MASS DISPEL, purge, psyfiend/void shift, and a cast-able sprint on a target. Then you add mass CC through psychic scream or if you want to stay at range you talent the stun. It's nuts to think shadow is not set up to be strong in BGs/RBGs. They have always been able to challenge for top damage while maintaining healer levels of dispels on top of adding passive self healing, dispelling immunities, and purging.

I'd like you to expand on why you think shadow is weak in RBGs/BGs, because mobility/survivability/escape utility are not good reasons. Heck, survivability might be a plus in shadow's case for bgs because classes are allowed to free cast a LOT more in large scale pvp with significantly less training leading to void shield being significantly more effective; classes don't get trained in bgs to even a fraction of the amount they do in arena. Do you think damage is going to be low because by any measure of utility we are fantastic in bgs, and being a dot-centric spec almost guarantees us to be near the top in damage just based on history.

==============================

As for arena, I'm guessing shadow is going to suck very badly at 2s unless somehow dampening style comps work. In 3s, there's potential to go both ways, but if melee stay like they are shadow won't be around.

You completely read between the lines in his post.

[Kretan]

You completely read between the lines in his post.

I don't really follow you. He said my claim of shadow being the best in the game for BGs was extremely hyped, filled with wrong information, and I needed to chill out. I then further explained my position on why I think shadow is as strong as I think it is in bgs, and asked him to comment on it....His list of reasons against was SoI, and then mobility/survivability/escape utility. That to me boils down to damage and self sustainability. Where have I read between the lines exactly?

[RsinRC]

I'm not really defending the lack of choice, and that's what you keep missing. I just don't care if we have choice. Feel free to care about it yourself, but it's just not on my priority list. Doesn't make you're opinion wrong or invalid. I'd like choice if the option was available, but I don't care if we get the option. Being bad at twos isn't a big deal to me personally.

You're right. I am wasting my time.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't really follow you. He said my claim of shadow being the best in the game for BGs was extremely hyped, filled with wrong information, and I needed to chill out. I then further explained my position on why I think shadow is as strong as I think it is in bgs, and asked him to comment on it....His list of reasons against was SoI, and then mobility/survivability/escape utility. That to me boils down to damage and self sustainability. Where have I read between the lines exactly?

He didn't say that shadow is butt in BG's. He said that WHEN we were able to do bg's our damage was overtuned and had lots of bugs that helped us top the charts and that by seeing that you over hyped the spec by claiming it's the best.

[Kretan]

He didn't say that shadow is butt in BG's. He said that WHEN we were able to do bg's our damage was overtuned and had lots of bugs that helped us top the charts and that by seeing that you over hyped the spec by claiming it's the best.

Reading back I overstated his position on weakness. @Theed where do you see shadow in the ranks of ranged damage dealers in BGs/RBGs? I think that they are either the top, or so close to it that they have to be in the discussion. Where do you place them and why?

[RsinRC]

Tbh they could make MC work like Nefarian did or symbiosis : basically make it so you "force" a player to use a benefic spell for you or a harmful spell to one of their ally. Let's say : if you use it on a lock, he'll use fear on his ally/allies. Etc.

Exactly. It would add excitement to the spell and give a better or clearer view than just LoS or makem jump off a cliff lol

[Theed]

Thinking shadow is going to be weak in BGs is wrong lol. You'd have to be severely disconnected from what is good in BGs vs arena to think shadow's legion design is anything but strong as hell for bgs.

Any time a spec has high dot damage they are instantly among the best in BGs/RBGs. Boomies, aff locks, UH dks.........dots dots dots. Shadow is primarily a dot class, and mind trauma takes the dot idea to the edge of stupidity......I don't know why they put it in but ok I'll take it if they offer.

And "best spec in the game" is in reference to BGs only. I don't know if that was unclear, but that's no comment on arena. If shadow isn't THE best in BGs, it HAS to be in the discussion among the best for your ranged DDs. Things like survivability, mobility, escape utility.....these things don't really matter in large scale pvp (at least they are so mitigated to be nearly useless). It just makes positioning much more important to not take fights at times and knowing when to leave. Instead of needing to kite a melee in a cramped arena, now you hang back and sink in to your team's back line to force extreme over extension. It's the reason shadow always shined in RBGs even when weak in arena....it's weaknesses are not important in large scale PVP.

On top of that shadow gets great self heals, mind control (actually strong in BGs/RBGs if used with coordination), MASS DISPEL, purge, psyfiend/void shift, and a cast-able sprint on a target. Then you add mass CC through psychic scream or if you want to stay at range you talent the stun. It's nuts to think shadow is not set up to be strong in BGs/RBGs. They have always been able to challenge for top damage while maintaining healer levels of dispels on top of adding passive self healing, dispelling immunities, and purging.

I'd like you to expand on why you think shadow is weak in RBGs/BGs, because mobility/survivability/escape utility are not good reasons. Heck, survivability might be a plus in shadow's case for bgs because classes are allowed to free cast a LOT more in large scale pvp with significantly less training leading to void shield being significantly more effective; classes don't get trained in bgs to even a fraction of the amount they do in arena. Do you think damage is going to be low because by any measure of utility we are fantastic in bgs, and being a dot-centric spec almost guarantees us to be near the top in damage just based on history.

==============================

As for arena, I'm guessing shadow is going to suck very badly at 2s unless somehow dampening style comps work. In 3s, there's potential to go both ways, but if melee stay like they are shadow won't be around.

I never said shadow is weak in legion bgs. I just denied that we are gods and the best spec in the game after the last alpha builds and since BGs were available for testing. We will be viable and fun to play in random BGs and among the better specs in this type of pvp.

[Kretan]

I never said shadow is weak in legion bgs. I just denied that we are gods and the best spec in the game after the last alpha builds and since BGs were available for testing. We will be viable and fun to play in random BGs and among the better specs in this type of pvp.

I throw 'gods' around a lot when talking with some of my buddies more casually than it reads here. Maybe I should have been more specific then. Either way, I see shadow topping damage in most every bg format (or among those at the very very top) with strong multidot, single target focus, utility, self sustainability, and has some great killing potential depending on how well you can hide a psyfiend. A 50% healing reduction could be incredible if it hits the right target (SO annoying how it seems random atm) and stays alive. Comparing it to your average spec for bgs, shadow is going to seem really damn strong.

[Theed]

I'm not really defending the lack of choice, and that's what you keep missing. I just don't care if we have choice. Feel free to care about it yourself, but it's just not on my priority list. Doesn't make you're opinion wrong or invalid. I'd like choice if the option was available, but I don't care if we get the option. Being bad at twos isn't a big deal to me personally.

But that's the reason why we are still in alpha isn't it? Provide feedback for the devs to see where and what they need to adjust. The game is so complex and they need our feedback more than ever.

If you are truly fine with having only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier, being unplayable in one of the most popular pvp brackets (even if it is balanced poorly overall) and getting trained in each 3s game for the whole game i am a little sad you have access to the alpha. There is still so much time left to fix the issues. Call me a pessimist but i'm not happy with this situation.

[Kretan]

But that's the reason why we are still in alpha isn't it? Provide feedback for the devs to see where and what they need to adjust. The game is so complex and they need our feedback more than ever.

If you are truly fine with having only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier, being unplayable in one of the most popular pvp brackets (even if it is balanced poorly overall) and getting trained in each 3s game for the whole game i am a little sad you have access to the alpha. There is still so much time left to fix the issues. Call me a pessimist but i'm not happy with this situation.

I've actually provided all the feed back you have talked about lol. I've physically posted in the official forums saying it could be improved. I'm not sure if you are just taking the anger you have for the spec out on me, but I'd appreciate if you could chill a bit. My personal wish list has no effect on the spec's eventual outcome or the devs decisions; I'd like to think my personal opinion is my own? Add to all this that I've posted all of nearly the exact same feedback as you.....I just don't get your anger at me. If I was all doom and gloom I'd be so much more popular I get it; saying we suck is in.

1) Only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier - could be better designed, but not a huge deal to me. As long as we at least have minimum 1 spec that is good, that's my personal bar for calling a spec viable. Anything extra is great. VERY little talent choice exists in this game, and saying other specs are filled with it isn't really true. If we go in to Legion and the top 20 of almost every spec on ladder isn't nearly a carbon copy or each each other, feel free to bring this up again. And, if the top 20 all have the same spec, everyone south of that is going to wonder what they are doing wrong and just copy exactly the top; it's just how wow works. Wow's history is so filled by cookie cutter that being too upset that it happened again is a little silly to me....it always happens, and no one is going to have tons of viable talents.

2) Being unplayable in 2s - We will be semi viable/decent with a healer I'd imagine (not amazing but still). This bracket isn't designed for in the least. Not sure why design here matters. If your argument is that it should be designed for, then make that argument. That has nothing to do with shadow priest though. You are complaining that they aren't designing for something that they have said they do not design for.....what?

3) Getting trained all game - Welcome to shadow priest? Someone has to get attacked on every team. I don't think anything short of a total redesign is changing this fact, unless you are naive enough to think a single gap opener, 10% DR, or some miniscule change is going to dissuade training. Either our heals, support, and dispersion are enough and we are viable or they aren't and we won't be. It's as simple as that. On top of that, we can actually operate through interrupts and pseudo interrupts now unlike MoP......If you don't like being trained then this clearly isn't the class for you.

[Theed]

I've actually provided all the feed back you have talked about lol. I've physically posted in the official forums saying it could be improved. I'm not sure if you are just taking the anger you have for the spec out on me, but I'd appreciate if you could chill a bit. My personal wish list has no effect on the spec's eventual outcome or the devs decisions; I'd like to think my personal opinion is my own? Add to all this that I've posted all of nearly the exact same feedback as you.....I just don't get your anger at me. If I was all doom and gloom I'd be so much more popular I get it; saying we suck is in.

1) Only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier - could be better designed, but not a huge deal to me. As long as we at least have minimum 1 spec that is good, that's my personal bar for calling a spec viable. Anything extra is great. VERY little talent choice exists in this game, and saying other specs are filled with it isn't really true. If we go in to Legion and the top 20 of almost every spec on ladder isn't nearly a carbon copy or each each other, feel free to bring this up again. And, if the top 20 all have the same spec, everyone south of that is going to wonder what they are doing wrong and just copy exactly the top; it's just how wow works. Wow's history is so filled by cookie cutter that being too upset that it happened again is a little silly to me....it always happens, and no one is going to have tons of viable talents.

2) Being unplayable in 2s - We will be semi viable/decent with a healer I'd imagine (not amazing but still). This bracket isn't designed for in the least. Not sure why design here matters. If your argument is that it should be designed for, then make that argument. That has nothing to do with shadow priest though. You are complaining that they aren't designing for something that they have said they do not design for.....what?

3) Getting trained all game - Welcome to shadow priest? Someone has to get attacked on every team. I don't think anything short of a total redesign is changing this fact, unless you are naive enough to think a single gap opener, 10% DR, or some miniscule change is going to dissuade training. Either our heals, support, and dispersion are enough and we are viable or they aren't and we won't be. It's as simple as that. On top of that, we can actually operate through interrupts and pseudo interrupts now unlike MoP......If you don't like being trained then this clearly isn't the class for you.

Fair enough. Let's calm down.

I just wanted to let you know that i find it annoying how you might provide false expectations to players without alpha experience. You have to remember not everyone is your "buddy" and understands your casual everyday language. Anyway, english is not my native language and i'm sorry if I offended you or anything.

[Kretan]

Fair enough. Let's calm down.

I just wanted to let you know that i find it annoying how you might provide false expectations to players without alpha experience. You have to remember not everyone is your "buddy" and understands your casual everyday language. Anyway, english is not my native language and i'm sorry if I offended you or anything.

Yeah I'll try to be more specific when talking about it. Godly is more reference to being really damn strong compared to an average level spec, not broken/unbalanced/OP; I'll be more clear going forward.

And no hard feelings.

[RsinRC]

I've actually provided all the feed back you have talked about lol. I've physically posted in the official forums saying it could be improved. I'm not sure if you are just taking the anger you have for the spec out on me, but I'd appreciate if you could chill a bit. My personal wish list has no effect on the spec's eventual outcome or the devs decisions; I'd like to think my personal opinion is my own? Add to all this that I've posted all of nearly the exact same feedback as you.....I just don't get your anger at me. If I was all doom and gloom I'd be so much more popular I get it; saying we suck is in.

1) Only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier - could be better designed, but not a huge deal to me. As long as we at least have minimum 1 spec that is good, that's my personal bar for calling a spec viable. Anything extra is great. VERY little talent choice exists in this game, and saying other specs are filled with it isn't really true. If we go in to Legion and the top 20 of almost every spec on ladder isn't nearly a carbon copy or each each other, feel free to bring this up again. And, if the top 20 all have the same spec, everyone south of that is going to wonder what they are doing wrong and just copy exactly the top; it's just how wow works. Wow's history is so filled by cookie cutter that being too upset that it happened again is a little silly to me....it always happens, and no one is going to have tons of viable talents.

2) Being unplayable in 2s - We will be semi viable/decent with a healer I'd imagine (not amazing but still). This bracket isn't designed for in the least. Not sure why design here matters. If your argument is that it should be designed for, then make that argument. That has nothing to do with shadow priest though. You are complaining that they aren't designing for something that they have said they do not design for.....what?

3) Getting trained all game - Welcome to shadow priest? Someone has to get attacked on every team. I don't think anything short of a total redesign is changing this fact, unless you are naive enough to think a single gap opener, 10% DR, or some miniscule change is going to dissuade training. Either our heals, support, and dispersion are enough and we are viable or they aren't and we won't be. It's as simple as that. On top of that, we can actually operate through interrupts and pseudo interrupts now unlike MoP......If you don't like being trained then this clearly isn't the class for you.

1) Only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier - coud be better designed. Everything else you wrote is counter to this. And yes, other classes have different talent choices for different scenarios wether its for duels, multi target, vs a certain spec, aoe, buffs, debuffs more buttons, less buttons etc. And viable in their own right.

2) Being unplayable in 2's isn't cuz we aren't designed for it. It IS however how we lack abilities, passives or utility to actually defend ourselves under decent pressure. Can be solved by implementing a talent that gives us one of those things to either brake us off (escape), control them or prevents them of doing trolololol damage to us.

3) Being trained means the target is the easiest to kill. And shadow priests are very easy to kill. Atleast I know how to kill a Shadow priest much easier and effective than any other spec. Shadow priest's strengths are their biggest weakness cuz they are the easiest to read.

[Kretan]

1) Only one viable pvp talent choice in each tier - coud be better designed. Everything else you wrote is counter to this. And yes, other classes have different talent choices for different scenarios wether its for duels, multi target, vs a certain spec, aoe, buffs, debuffs more buttons, less buttons etc. And viable in their own right.

2) Being unplayable in 2's isn't cuz we aren't designed for it. It IS however how we lack abilities, passives or utility to actually defend ourselves under decent pressure. Can be solved by implementing a talent that gives us one of those things to either brake us off (escape), control them or prevents them of doing trolololol damage to us.

3) Being trained means the target is the easiest to kill. And shadow priests are very easy to kill. Atleast I know how to kill a Shadow priest much easier and effective than any other spec. Shadow priest's strengths are their biggest weakness cuz they are the easiest to read.

1) But when it comes down to it, only 1 choice exists in most every tier in the game for every spec. In 3s and RBGs, each spec is going to have it's cookie cutter. We do have choice, but it's not that diverse, and it's non existent when it comes to competing with void shield and driven to madness. Other than those two though, we do have at least a small bit of variance on tiers if you desire a different or sub optimal play style for whatever reason....but in the end one cookie cutter will be deemed the best.

2) That is the definition of not being designed for it. We are designed to have support, which is available in supported brackets. If we still suck when you add support, then I agree we have a major issue. On a side note it sucks how testing anything but double dps 2s is a waste of time. I have no idea how they expect to tune healers unless it is 100% internally.

3) Someone is always the easiest to kill. At least our offensive game is designed to work better than a lot of other ranged specs when we have a melee humping our leg....the question is more "Is a healer enough?"

[Ilir]

Okay people on the alpha, I have a mission for you ! We need to find where to get http://legion.wowhead.com/item=139569/claw-of-nzoth

Oh.. I wonder if it isn't a archeology thing. Since N'zoth was the one who created the nightmare and helped the naga and he's mia.

[RsinRC]

1) For the most part yes its true we'll have 1 main build. How does this imply that we can't have something that can help us in 2's? or help us not be such easy targets in all facets of pvp now that we lack so much? I don't get how saying we have 1 strong build is worth dealing with BS when every other talent is relatively useless? What is the point?

2)No it really isn't. We have those abilities already but suck compared to WoD's. Thats not the issue tho the issue is they aren't as potent and we are definitely squishy no matter which type of pvp you're in.

3) Within the given comp yes, 1 spec will be easiest to kill. Shadow is ALWAYS the kill target in Legion though for good reason.

[Chantique]

Thanks for the replies @Kretan and @Theed, much appreciated.

My wife really wants to play DH for 2s, so i started lvling a Destro lock to at least play with her there. I just hoped we would end with better defensives to not be so team dependent =/