Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Lorentz]

This is incorrect, proccing deepening shadows just finishes the cooldown of the most recently used charge, in your example, that would be a good thing, you just got back the charge you just used, making you able to use it again.

As i mentioned before, you should never cap charges unless you're very lucky. They should all be used, with one stealth effect coming available in time to refresh SoD.

It's not only about charges. In that example you would lose CPs or risk to lose Dance stack. Just play it on a dummy.

[Smaxy]

Sorry I should have phrased it clearer, could you ask if that is intended? I searched the theorycrafting thread for it but couldn't see it asked.

Also, beta starting

I don't think that is the kind of question for the Theorycrafting forums. The way the tooltip reads, it implies that the 6th CP has no effect. I've brought it up in the class forum though, and I'll do it again (once some more people post, just posted something earlier today)

[Roncero]

I don't think that is the kind of question for the Theorycrafting forums. The way the tooltip reads, it implies that the 6th CP has no effect. I've brought it up in the class forum though, and I'll do it again (once some more people post, just posted something earlier today)

Yeah it's a very minor point in theorycrafting, but I figure that thread has by far the most blue eyes on it. Thanks

[Todesbote]

...

So the complete lack of AoE when 5-mans will play a much bigger role in the upcoming expansion does not bother you at all? I'm puzzled by this.

Is everyone really acceptin that we will have to be Outlaw for everything besides ST-Raidbosses and PvP (maybe)?

[Deleted]

So the complete lack of AoE when 5-mans will play a much bigger role in the upcoming expansion does not bother you at all? I'm puzzled by this.

Is everyone really acceptin that we will have to be Outlaw for everything besides ST-Raidbosses and PvP (maybe)?

Nope AoE is now the only thing I'm not happy with(well not happy as in things that could be changed), especially for 5 mans, mythic plus is a big pull for a few of my returning friends outside pvp. Now I feel like double the work is the requirement to get outlaw at a decent level, as sub currently will be woeful for lvl 3 affixes and above

[Deleted]

Well I really doubt dirty thieves in shadow would have any friends, so there you go, class fantasy.

[Deleted]

I play mostly PvP as sub rogue, frost mage, boomkin/resto and ret pala. So far I find most changes disappointing.

Lets change the rogue spec that was the most fun to something more boring and simple so finally a guy at blizzard HQ can play it as well. Also lets remove the perma slowing because that is pretty annoying, instead we let them teleport all over the place, yeah that would be fun for a lot of opponents.

Lets make frost mage rely on frozen orb more since that seems to work out perfect on moving targets and remove deep freeze and bring it back as a fricking long cast ability on a spec that's supposed to have mobility and control(to be fair I haven't checked up on mages for a bit.) Also it does quite some damage but that's not why we used it most of the time in PvP anyways.

Let us remove the annoying bar for balance because its a nuisance, nature's vigil can also be stripped away because well it's not like its pretty much the only reason they can survive some burst right now. Remove force of nature since roots are annoying btw did we already mention that we want druids to hard cast to build up their resources so they can use starsurge and starfall, which shouldn't be hard at all without a baseline slow and stuff.

Ret is just the inferior version of some other classes, didn't really change much here since WoD I guess.

Sorry this was a slightly off topic rant. I don't get the changes, they remove fun abilities and turn it into a dampening damage fest.
I guess it will all get better when I get used to the changes and can play around them but I just don't get why they moved from MoP to WoD and now do even more damage to PvP going into Legion. I guess PvP is just a mini-game.

Did anyone like changes done to their class from MoP to WoD or my guild just that weird.

[Kalador]

So the complete lack of AoE when 5-mans will play a much bigger role in the upcoming expansion does not bother you at all? I'm puzzled by this.

Is everyone really acceptin that we will have to be Outlaw for everything besides ST-Raidbosses and PvP (maybe)?

The problem is that blade flurry is so powerful/broken that there is almost no way sub AoE could even compete (even if it was well made). I personally think it should be remove as it break the balance of the spec and general AoE for rogue as a all but until it is I prefer having the AoE into ST niche rather than decent AoE that is still never going to be on par with outlaw.

[Mafic]

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I play mostly PvP as sub rogue, frost mage, boomkin/resto and ret pala. So far I find most changes disappointing.

Lets change the rogue spec that was the most fun to something more boring and simple so finally a guy at blizzard HQ can play it as well. Also lets remove the perma slowing because that is pretty annoying, instead we let them teleport all over the place, yeah that would be fun for a lot of opponents.

Lets make frost mage rely on frozen orb more since that seems to work out perfect on moving targets and remove deep freeze and bring it back as a fricking long cast ability on a spec that's supposed to have mobility and control(to be fair I haven't checked up on mages for a bit.) Also it does quite some damage but that's not why we used it most of the time in PvP anyways.

Let us remove the annoying bar for balance because its a nuisance, nature's vigil can also be stripped away because well it's not like its pretty much the only reason they can survive some burst right now. Remove force of nature since roots are annoying btw did we already mention that we want druids to hard cast to build up their resources so they can use starsurge and starfall, which shouldn't be hard at all without a baseline slow and stuff.

Ret is just the inferior version of some other classes, didn't really change much here since WoD I guess.

Sorry this was a slightly off topic rant. I don't get the changes, they remove fun abilities and turn it into a dampening damage fest.
I guess it will all get better when I get used to the changes and can play around them but I just don't get why they moved from MoP to WoD and now do even more damage to PvP going into Legion. I guess PvP is just a mini-game.

Did anyone like changes done to their class from MoP to WoD or my guild just that weird.

The game is less fun and takes less skill. Sub Rogue to me now is a single target tunnel bot.

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The problem is that blade flurry is so powerful/broken that there is almost no way sub AoE could even compete (even if it was well made). I personally think it should be remove as it break the balance of the spec and general AoE for rogue as a all but until it is I prefer having the AoE into ST niche rather than decent AoE that is still never going to be on par with outlaw.

Removing things is why Blade Flurry has become stronger. Pruning has made things worse for Rogues and taking away choices isn't the solution. Combat losing Rupture, Crimson Tempest, and Fan of Knives shows that the devs have pigeonholed Outlaw with Blade Flurry now.

Give Sub an AoE finisher and things can improved this way by adding back to the game. More pruning is never the solution.

[Deleted]

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Removing things is why Blade Flurry has become stronger. Pruning has made things worse for Rogues and taking away choices isn't the solution. Combat losing Rupture, Crimson Tempest, and Fan of Knives shows that the devs have pigeonholed Outlaw with Blade Flurry now.

Give Sub an AoE finisher and things can improved this way by adding back to the game. More pruning is never the solution.

Sorry but the removal Crimson Tempest has 0 impact on BFs relative strenght. CT was useless since its implementation.

[Deleted]

Well I really doubt dirty thieves in shadow would have any friends, so there you go, class fantasy.

ROFL, this made me laugh, class fantasy to the extreme >.< We made your spec with glaring errors, so players wont want to group with you lol.

The problem is that blade flurry is so powerful/broken that there is almost no way sub AoE could even compete (even if it was well made). I personally think it should be remove as it break the balance of the spec and general AoE for rogue as a all but until it is I prefer having the AoE into ST niche rather than decent AoE that is still never going to be on par with outlaw.

No one in the sub forums is advocating we have something that could compete with blade flurry, we just want something a bit more reliable than multi dotting with nightblade. I find it quite insulting that celestalon is pushing the multi-dot as our form of AoE from the start, where that is a blatent lie, since shadow nova would have been an AoE finisher with the first iteration of sub due to dance proccing on finishers themselves, they clearly just didn't think about its purpose as an ability when they did the rework and now they are being stubborn, it would be an easy fix to adjust shadow nova to proc on finishers, to think we can't see that speaks volumes really.

If sub is not at least 5% ahead of every other spec when it comes to single target, then well, they have shafted us quite frankly.

On a side note, good luck on the beta invites everyone!!!!!

[Kalador]

No one in the sub forums is advocating we have something that could compete with blade flurry, we just want something a bit more reliable than multi dotting with nightblade. I find it quite insulting that celestalon is pushing the multi-dot as our form of AoE from the start, where that is a blatent lie, since shadow nova would have been an AoE finisher with the first iteration of sub due to dance proccing on finishers themselves, they clearly just didn't think about its purpose as an ability when they did the rework and now they are being stubborn, it would be an easy fix to adjust shadow nova to proc on finishers, to think we can't see that speaks volumes really.

If sub is not at least 5% ahead of every other spec when it comes to single target, then well, they have shafted us quite frankly.

Yeah I agree with you that multi-dot aoe for sub is probably going to be shity... and i'm not a huge fan of shadow nova as it is, but what i'm saying is that as long as blade flurry exist in it's current form people will play outlaw for AoE. If outlaw is not exceptionally shity on ST it will mean that it's going to be way OP for AoE and cleave. Look at Highmaul and BRF, sub aoe with CT was really not to bad on paper, still, in dungeon or on every fight where you needed some kind of AoE or cleave every rogues that wanted to max their AoE dps were playing combat, not cause sub was bad just because blade flurry was and still is broken.

I wish mut, outlaw and sub had competitive AoE dps and cleave but i think that as long as blade flurry exist in it's current form it will be almost impossible for sub or mut to come close to it, blade flurry is borken because EVERYTHING that up your dps in ST also up your dps in AoE when it's not and will probably never be the case for the two other spec, that adds to my exemple made earlier about Hm and BrF, because the way bladeflurry work it's scales so much better with gear than other form of AoE, if sub was ''on par'' in AoE at the start of the expac, at the end it's just pure crap compare to combat.

In the end i'm thankful sub as some kind of AoE niche (AoE into ST) because otherwise there would be even less reason to play it when there's add.

I think to make rogue AoE something good and something with choice you have to destroy blade flurry and rethink it for the 3 spec.

[elfporn]

It's not only about charges. In that example you would lose CPs or risk to lose Dance stack. Just play it on a dummy.

i still don't understand where you get this from. Proccing deepening shadows during dance(or any other time), just ends the CD of the current charge counting down, you don't lose the dance stack at all, or risk losing combo points.

It's about playing well, not just spamming buttons while in dance - you plan for your cooldown, and execute it efficiently with little to no loss of resources, it is entirely possible, even on the pull.

The whole situation should never come up outside of the first 10 seconds of the pull (as i mentioned originally), and if it does, you rectify the sudden plethora of SD charges by using one.

It sounds like you're complaining because you can't manage your resources correctly.

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So the complete lack of AoE when 5-mans will play a much bigger role in the upcoming expansion does not bother you at all? I'm puzzled by this.

Is everyone really acceptin that we will have to be Outlaw for everything besides ST-Raidbosses and PvP (maybe)?

This issue is the single largest remaining problem with sub, and has been an issue from the start

[Lorentz]

i still don't understand where you get this from. Proccing deepening shadows during dance(or any other time), just ends the CD of the current charge counting down, you don't lose the dance stack at all, or risk losing combo points.

It's about playing well, not just spamming buttons while in dance - you plan for your cooldown, and execute it efficiently with little to no loss of resources, it is entirely possible, even on the pull.

The whole situation should never come up outside of the first 10 seconds of the pull (as i mentioned originally), and if it does, you rectify the sudden plethora of SD charges by using one.

It sounds like you're complaining because you can't manage your resources correctly.

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This issue is the single largest remaining problem with sub, and has been an issue from the start

That is not how Deepening Shadows works. It just grants you 1 stack, not finish current recharge timer. So, for example, if you have 1 stack and 40 seconds left on recharge, when you get a proc you end up with 2 charges and 40 seconds left on recharge timer not 0 seconds.

It's okay if you don't understand. Wait for it to hit live

[elfporn]

That is not how Deepening Shadows works. It just grants you 1 stack, not finish current recharge timer. So, for example, if you have 1 stack and 40 seconds left on recharge, when you get a proc you end up with 2 charges and 40 seconds left on recharge timer not 0 seconds.

It's okay if you don't understand. Wait for it to hit live

My mistake. It doesn't change anything. You still sound like you're complaining because it's too complicated. If anything just gaining a charge straight-up is better.

Everything i've said still applies. If it's too complex for you, then don't worry about losing resources here and there, just mash the buttons, you'll be fine.

Let me go back to this, just as i said it ages ago, you should never have more than 1 stack of SD during any given fight. The opener is the only place where stack overflow might be a problem.

What about burst phases? you should make sure sprint or vanish is available to supplement burst, and/or setup SD timing to coincide with the burst phase to enable back to back use without stack overflow.

[Valentyn]

What about burst phases? you should make sure sprint or vanish is available to supplement burst, and/or setup SD timing to coincide with the burst phase to enable back to back use without stack overflow.

Why Sprint? I see nothing on the Legion tooltip that it'll give a DPS boost like Vanish will.

[Kalador]

Why Sprint? I see nothing on the Legion tooltip that it'll give a DPS boost like Vanish will.

Flickering Shadows : Artifact Trait, Activating Sprint and then taking no damage for three seconds will activate Vanish without triggering its cooldown.

[kalaratic]

Why Sprint? I see nothing on the Legion tooltip that it'll give a DPS boost like Vanish will.

artifact trait that pops vanish after not taking dmg while sprinting for 3 sec

[Valentyn]

Flickering Shadows : Artifact Trait, Activating Sprint and then taking no damage for three seconds will activate Vanish without triggering its cooldown.

artifact trait that pops vanish after not taking dmg while sprinting for 3 sec

Oh yes, sorry folks completely forgot about that.

[maddnesskhaz]

My mistake. It doesn't change anything. You still sound like you're complaining because it's too complicated. If anything just gaining a charge straight-up is better.

You've kind of missed the point; Lorentz isn't saying it's too complicated, he's saying it's an awkward mechanic.

You're basing your thoughts on an average of x finishers per Deepening Shadows proc, when in reality you'll see it not as 1001001 but instead as 001011 whereby any time you use a finisher on 2 stacks of Dance, you're 'wasting' the cooldown if it procs, and there's no way to know if and when you'll get that proc.

So you're then overcapping CP to burn a Dance charge to avoid the potential of that happening (feels bad), or potentially wasting the cooldown on your Dance charge to prevent overcapping CP (feels bad). The player is forced in to a situation where even with good planning, there's an excessive amount of RNG that can't be avoided and that then forces you in to a lose:lose situation.

This is the problem with a stack reset / addition instead of a cooldown reduction e.g. Tier 18 4pc.

As an aside; snide comments about player skill or intelligence is unnecessary and adds nothing to the discussion, you should probably address the point and not the poster.