Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[Deleted]

You are absolutely clueless. Parry is basically the same as dodge, yet you say that it is better because it gives a damage reduction. It does not. Parrying a strike is essentially the same as dodging one in terms of damage intake.


Newsflash: crit, haste, multistrike, versatility and mastery (and even bonus armor) are all DPS stats for tanks. Regardless of whatever their priority is. Having more crit doesn't automatically mean you are going to do more DPS. Different classes prioritize different stats but end result is more-less equal for all the tanks across the board. Except for paladins, but that's only because of overpowered trinket we have. Without it, we do damage similar to other tanks.

All your other posts in this thread make me think that you clearly do not play a tank or even if you do, you suck at it. Care to link your armory so we all can see that you have some experience to back up your ridiculous claims?

"You must suck" MMO champion must introduce a button that adds this to every post. You guys don't use arguments, they just say "You must suck". We already established you are far supperior tank to any other person on earth. Well you or the other guy / girl :-D. Please reread my post where crit is an example because blizz likes to make a trinket that screws over all other classes and makes one or two classes 30%+ over other...

[Nalumis]

I'm playing a tank since BC as main char (has been paladin back in these days, but when they destroyed the protection paladin in WotLK I changed to DK in Cata).

The must fun of playing a tank is that you can compensate a bad group (with not too bad gear). You do decent DPS and have decent self-healing and active mitigation if you need to. You have many utilities that you can use if you are familiar with your class.

With Legion this seems to be hardly reduced. (Examples for DKs: AoE tanking reduced (very bad when the impatient DPS pulls additional groups when your D&D is on cooldown), Gorefiend's Grasp has a cooldown that makes it useless, Dark Sim gone, reduced run speed.) I think the goal from Blizzard is that more players will tank because it gets much easier. But what I think is that the existing tanks turn away from tanking, because they get less overall control and have less fun.

When it really happens that I will sit at my keyboard and waiting for the next spell to come of cooldown while watching TV, I will probably switch to a DPS as well.

[Deleted]

Lots have been complaining tanking was too easy, so they've made the tank much more reliant on their healer to survive (which isn't really a bad thing since they are co-dependent) I think since Wrath (and certain parts of Cata) instances and raids have pretty much been aoe fests, CC isn't really needed. I don't personally think tanks should be concerned with how much damage they can do (just their threat output) sure it's nice to top meters now and again as say a Blood DK but that's the job of the actual dps.

[Raiju]

Lots have been complaining tanking was too easy, so they've made the tank much more reliant on their healer to survive (which isn't really a bad thing since they are co-dependent)

You're just as reliant on the healer, the difference is you aren't reliant on your own abilities. You've always been reliant on healers in any challenging content.

I think since Wrath (and certain parts of Cata) instances and raids have pretty much been aoe fests, CC isn't really needed.

This is due to enhanced aoe tools all roles/specs got through wrath/cata - nothing to do with tanks. We have aoe aggro, aoe stuns, aoe slows, aoe snares, knockbacks now as standard.

I don't personally think tanks should be concerned with how much damage they can do (just their threat output) sure it's nice to top meters now and again as say a Blood DK but that's the job of the actual dps.

No blood dk is topping dps meters against even a competent dps, not even close. The tank dps discrepancy for non paladins is gigantic outside of aoe right now where tanks tend to close the gap somewhat. Not even paladins beat dps though.

The healing meter thing is once again misunderstanding mechanics for OP. A DK heals as much as a healer on progress but that's because they are taking far more than any other tank before their healing.

[Lethora]

"You must suck" MMO champion must introduce a button that adds this to every post. You guys don't use arguments, they just say "You must suck". We already established you are far supperior tank to any other person on earth. Well you or the other guy / girl :-D. Please reread my post where crit is an example because blizz likes to make a trinket that screws over all other classes and makes one or two classes 30%+ over other...

There's been plenty of valid arguments in this thread. Most of them were made by people who actually tank.
And then there are people like you who have zero credibility but are making ridiculous claims and dodging the discussion.

[8bithamster]

There's been plenty of valid arguments in this thread. Most of them were made by people who actually tank.
And then there are people like you who have zero credibility but are making ridiculous claims and dodging the discussion.

While I agree with you, you responded with yet another "you suck!" instead of actually you know, using reasoning. You must love proving his point

[Deleted]

Lots have been complaining tanking was too easy, so they've made the tank much more reliant on their healer to survive (which isn't really a bad thing since they are co-dependent) I think since Wrath (and certain parts of Cata) instances and raids have pretty much been aoe fests, CC isn't really needed. I don't personally think tanks should be concerned with how much damage they can do (just their threat output) sure it's nice to top meters now and again as say a Blood DK but that's the job of the actual dps.

I really don't mind being reliant on a healer to survive, no tanks I know do (well except if they outgear content or its outdoor stuff). This is really not the issue. The issue is how much of our survivability should come from the tanks and how much from healers.
Shifting all of this to healers (which, from most people I have heard talk about Legion alpha, is the case) makes tanking much easier because you can literally do nothing as a tank or even if you can it has so little effect on your tanking that it is negligible.
Tanking is about to become a whole lot easier, which is bad for everyone.
Why can't blizzard just find a sweet spot, why go from tanks being very self sufficient with HoTs, beacons etc. to them having very little say over there own survivability.

[8bithamster]

It's easy to recognise the Wotlk/cata tanks in here.. "omg I have to rely on healers to survive THE END IS COMING!".. /headdesk

[Deleted]

It's easy to recognise the Wotlk/cata tanks in here.. "omg I have to rely on healers to survive THE END IS COMING!".. /headdesk

You are missing the point.

With Threat not being a thing since forever tanks wanted to have something to do. To actually show if/how well they are doing their job. No, positioning the boss and holding on the threat is not hard. At all. So active mitigation was a thing. Tanks who knew what the hell they were doing like Active Mitigation as a concept. Sometimes the numbers weren't right but that's besides the point.
Throwing out Mitigation as a really relevant thing up to the point of it making almost no difference is bad for tanking in general.

btw having a healer on content that is actually relevant is more or less mandatory. I have tried to tank (for example) mythics with gear on the level required (670-685) and I can assure you - a good tank will still need a healer. If I am in there with my Pally with 730+ ilvl ofc I can pretty much faceroll through. But that's not relevant to the discussion here. We are talking about challenging content. Content you actually have to do shit.
And yes, I took Mythic Dungeons as an example because most people have run those dungeons by now (with- or without OP gear) and know what I am talking about. Another great example is Blackhand which hit crazy hard. So a good tank had to mitigate as much damage as he/she could. Were healers obsolete on that fight? Hell no. Tanks had to be healed all the time because BH hit so hard just on auto-attacks. Again. Just an example.

People who want their own Mitigation, their Survival their own thing (Absorbs, DRs and so on) are not talking about needing healers in general. They want to have control over how much damage they are taking. Meaningful control. Which (if you watched the video) is not the case currently.
That's all.

[GameFX]

We clearly need some mods in here to clean up this thread and keep it on topic....Too many shit posts & its obvious that its coming from people that haven't tanked extensively or have very little experience...Where was this amazing tank game play in Vanilla/TBC/WotLK?? Because all I recall was getting smacked in the face while pressing a threat generator, while listening to my Aussie raid leader lose his shit because someone pulled a big blue on accident in ZG. Only time you even had to use another button was if you were in danger of dying & positioning the boss is not game play ffs. Threat was boring, bad and more importantly it limited fight encounter design immensely.

MoP & WoD are easily the best expansions in terms of tank game play. Boss is about to bring the pain let me react appropriately (Active Mitigation) or take massive damage if I don't; boss isn't doing anything dangerous and I'm not in danger of dying (Defensive Cooldown) let me try and pump out some deeps. How is that bad design? Tanks were finally important in progression and pushing content because their skill ceiling had been lifted - hell you might even say its when the skill cap for tanks was born

Bad Tanks = using AM wrong or not at all and poor dps [dies all the time & OOMs the healer(s)]
Avg Tanks = using AM correctly but poor dps [more likely to panic once control is lost]
Good Tanks = using AM correctly and good dps [requires least amount of heals]

^bit of a generalization but you get the idea

Preach made some good points, and swinging the pendulum this far in the opposite direction (typical of Blizzard) will burn them come live should no adjustments be made. Right now on Alpha I'm just sitting there getting punched in the face ala Vanilla/TBC because quite honestly right now it just doesn't matter. Hopefully they can alter this...

Finally - where are all these god mode tanks?? Actually where were all these god mode tanks on progression and while gearing up that didn't need healers? Don't talk about now where shit is on farm and everyone is geared up like crazy along with Valor upgrades....utterly broken trinkets, OP set bonuses, etc. Tanks and their mechanics aren't the problem of why they can become god mode that's a symptom of the larger issue with Gear scaling and gear design choices.

[8bithamster]

You are missing the point.

With Threat not being a thing since forever tanks wanted to have something to do. To actually show if/how well they are doing their job. No, positioning the boss and holding on the threat is not hard. At all. So active mitigation was a thing. Tanks who knew what the hell they were doing like Active Mitigation as a concept. Sometimes the numbers weren't right but that's besides the point.
Throwing out Mitigation as a really relevant thing up to the point of it making almost no difference is bad for tanking in general.

btw having a healer on content that is actually relevant is more or less mandatory. I have tried to tank (for example) mythics with gear on the level required (670-685) and I can assure you - a good tank will still need a healer. If I am in there with my Pally with 730+ ilvl ofc I can pretty much faceroll through. But that's not relevant to the discussion here. We are talking about challenging content. Content you actually have to do shit.
And yes, I took Mythic Dungeons as an example because most people have run those dungeons by now (with- or without OP gear) and know what I am talking about. Another great example is Blackhand which hit crazy hard. So a good tank had to mitigate as much damage as he/she could. Were healers obsolete on that fight? Hell no. Tanks had to be healed all the time because BH hit so hard just on auto-attacks. Again. Just an example.

People who want their own Mitigation, their Survival their own thing (Absorbs, DRs and so on) are not talking about needing healers in general. They want to have control over how much damage they are taking. Meaningful control. Which (if you watched the video) is not the case currently.
That's all.

Meaningfull control, I fully agree with. We need that again, but the fact that people are screaming and yelling that it sucks they need to rely on healers more is just pathetic. It's a team effort, and MoP and WoD destroyed the team aspect of tanking outside raids. Hell, with decent dps you don't need a healer for most mythic dungeons. (outside the obvious ones).

@GameFX, while I agree with your post, every tanks view is valuable tbh, no matter how good or bad they are. People raid at different skill levels, at different styles. The game shouldn't be just balanced around tanks using AM perfectly.

I still miss the days of paladin tanking Karazhan and TK, loved that time. Sure, it was OP as fuck and threat was a non issue. But the fact that some bosses required me to be on my toes constantly with AM, and relaying with the healers which cooldowns should be used was awesome.
And that is something that is not even close to showing in heroic raids in WoD so far

[Vultoric]

I wouldn't be surprised if his videos are largely disregarded after 'the problem with mists of pandaria'

Here is Celestalon talking about catching up on his videos April 3rd. To my knowledge the dev team still listen to him quite a bit. https://twitter.com/PreachGaming/sta...31490932011008

[Raiju]

Here is Celestalon talking about catching up on his videos April 3rd. To my knowledge the dev team still listen to him quite a bit. https://twitter.com/PreachGaming/sta...31490932011008

That's an individual posting on his individual account rather than the warcraftdevs account, and one generally regarded as one who shouldn't be speakign with the public as a face in any sense as he has an inability to speak for the company correctly. To top it off, a dev watching videos is a far cry from it being used by the design team.

The fact he's a popular streamer/tuber will mean they are aware of his videos - my meaning is given how incorrect he often is they may often disregard his expertise.

[Echo of Soul]

I think Preach is way too biased on this topic and can only see his own point of view as a one man army.
I love tanking but I'm more than okay with my job as a tank being to protect the group and keep mobs under control and have the survival of the group and myself be more in the hands of the healer.

[Lethora]

I still miss the days of paladin tanking Karazhan and TK, loved that time. Sure, it was OP as fuck and threat was a non issue. But the fact that some bosses required me to be on my toes constantly with AM, and relaying with the healers which cooldowns should be used was awesome.
And that is something that is not even close to showing in heroic raids in WoD so far

There was no AM in TBC, stop posting things you made up in your mind. Tanking for palainds was all about getting spell-damage weapon, spamming 696 rotation and praying that healers keep you alive. Very engaging gameplay /s

[8bithamster]

There was no AM in TBC, stop posting things you made up in your mind. Tanking for palainds was all about getting spell-damage weapon, spamming 696 rotation and praying that healers keep you alive. Very engaging gameplay /s

aka, you never played paladin. Cute attempt though

[Tharkkun]

aka, you never played paladin. Cute attempt though

He's correct. Paladins in TBC and even LK were played this way. In LK you changed back to a regular tanking weapon. Defense cap, block cap, consecration and AFK.

[Delimit]

He's correct. Paladins in TBC and even LK were played this way. In LK you changed back to a regular tanking weapon. Defense cap, block cap, consecration and AFK.

You, go stand in the entry path in Mount Hyjal and consecrate.

[judgementofantonidas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Q1pnYLVCTE

So preach just released a video where he ranks the tanks in legion based on what they currently play like on Legion Alpha. It worries me alittle bit. Some of the specs he rates as incredible boring and really really bad. He mentions how some tanks have very little control over anything and how some of the specs have been reduced to an incredibly boring playstyle. What do you guys think? Is tanking all doom and gloom currently on the beta? Do you agree or disagree with his ranking? For the prot pally in particular, he mentions how if he was asked if it was a good evolution to the class, he'd tell the designer to stop making games. With the removal of holy power, the spec is basically just flat damage spells that mean nothing.

prot paladin = destroyed

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So it just looks like we have to go back to the old ways of CC'n mobs, It's what people wanted right? Harder content & more group interaction so in my honest opinion this may be a step in the right direction.

It seems more like Blizzard catered to the dps and heals that get offended when a good tank seems unstoppable or can solo content more easily.

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That's not good design though and I'm glad it's not a thing anymore. Not a comment on the current tank design on Legion, just wanted to single out that line as it's absurd to me that people see that as a good thing.

and why exactly do you feel that the classes that are designed to be hit by the boss all day should not have the survive ability to do amazing things in the hands of better than average players?

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Tanks need to be fun.

But the idea of tanks not needing healers is just bad design.

Tanks should be about reducing and mitigating damage - not about having so much self healing that you don't need a healer outside of the toughest raids.

sure. for warriors. for bears. definitely not for paladins. they are designed to heal themselves through damage. or should be.

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And someone else could say they think everything is super fun and your disagreement with them must be wrong. That's the trap you fall into when you play the subjectivity card.

Meanwhile community consensus carries a bit more weight. Lots of people like how their preferred DPS and healer specs are doing, but pretty much everyone is a bit iffy on tanks right now. This suggests that the tank problem is a little bit more than just personal taste.

yes. at least the sensible dps are going to admit that they want their tanks to be able to survive through that one time that the healer spilled beer on himself and missed a cast. rather than insta death raid wipe because the healers are not on their A game.

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While I tend to agree, and as a tank I wouldnt have a problem with this design, other players would. We have made tanking so easy that healers haven't really had to expend much on tanks. Mostly dealing with raid wide aoes and the dps that get caught in bad spots. Going back to a healer dependent tank will be a nightmare, as this playerbase is not used to that and will balk at the thought. All I do is tank I have every class that can tank, and I can see that this will definitely separate good tanks from bad, and even more so good healers from bad. A lot of healers were also carried by tanks that didnt need them so much, when the smoke clears there will be a lot of casualties.

But my personal feelings on it is good for blizz, everyone should have responsibility for their part in the group. But most people by now are trained to easy play, its going to be hard pressed to get them to accept this kind of design.

you are only taking into account good players. healers often have to heal not so good players. and by crippling tanks you hurt the average to not so good players. the great tanks are already carried by even better healers.

[Adramelch]

and why exactly do you feel that the classes that are designed to be hit by the boss all day should not have the survive ability to do amazing things in the hands of better than average players?

Soloing 5% of bosses as tanks is just bad design (or whatever 2 classes). I don't really need to explain anything more.