[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Ulthane]

Shield of Vengeance doesn't do damage unless it breaks? I wasn't aware of that honestly, I only got to test for 2 days. Just fyi, being in Alpha doesn't guarantee you're in Beta. Verified that with a GM a few minutes ago. So back to no beta club rofl.

But yeah, 10% of your HP on 2 min CD is fucking stupid. You realize Flash of Light heals more than Shield of Vengeance?

Remember when I said that SoV should be on a 1 minute CD. This is why. Everyone kept going off saying that would be too OP. <_< welllll......

[Snegovik]

-snip-
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Thing is, BOP is not a Self-Defensive cd, who ever thinks BOP is our defensive tool needs to do some rated pvp (not talking about u Zartorus but about ppl who say we have good defensive cds), i use bop as a 2nd trinket for my healer to get him out of blinds/war fear/ scatter (when it used to be in game) to avoid traps, also in WOD s1 u used BOP to get Rshammy from Rogue's 8 sec KS in 5s, or if u are facing healer tunneling melee clv BOP must be used on ur healer.

Hence, BOP is not a defensive cd, if you use it on urself, 99% of the time you are doing something very very wrong. Hence, Rets have only 2 actual D-cds Bubble (5min) and SOV-10%hp (2 or 1.5 min) cd, @Reghame these 2 defenses are no where enough for a melee class to have 0 mobility and be viable in rated pvp. @Reghame i mean take a look at DK's defensive tool kit, they surpass Rets by far, even any other melee class in game who are much more mobile has better utility has better D-cds than Ret

[Ulthane]

Mobility is in itself a great defensive tool. The ability to freedom then pop judgment and sprint away behind a pillar has always been the backbone of our survival stratedgy in almost all areas of PvP, since we lack the tools to go toe to toe with other melee for extended periods in arena.

With the removal of any sort of mobility of consequence we are literally sitting ducks, we can't get away, we can't get enemies off us, we can't punish them for training us and we can't do much damage when trained. You can freedom and TRY to run, but it'll be dispelled and even if it isn't you will be running slower than them by default with their 15% or more passive movement speed on many specs.

There is no upside to this bad mobility we don't hit any harder than they do, we aren't any more sturdy, in fact we are more frail than we've ever been, our passive defences (Templars Verdict Glyph) and our active (Divine Protection) have been entirely removed alongside our runspeed gutting.

But bleh nothing with change. Maybe we end up hitting like trucks - maybe. Then we will probably survive with the gimmicky burst comps Ret has to rely on because the spec simply doesn't have to core PvP mechanics to actually survive and engage with games that last anymore than the duration of wings.

/endrant

Which goes to the following.

SoV: 1 minute cd
Judgment: higher uptime
Abilities
-CS: 200% weapon damage
-Zeal: 300% weapon damage
-Blade of Justice: Auto crits
-Blade of Wrath: Doesnt auto crit but does 400% weapon as holy.
-Divine Hammer: No auto crit BUT 400% weapon damage as holy over 8 seconds and generates 1 holy power.

All abilities need to be doing above 200% and SoV needs to be on a lower cd to compensate. Easy things to tune.

I just find it hilarious that people going in and trying this see this when before it was stated that would be too op. Not op when math kicks in.

[Deleted]

Just stacking on more damage won't fix the problem. It'll either make us broken strong or broken weak.

[Ulthane]

Also id have to say TV needs to be at 500% and DS needs to be at 250%. The only big glaring issue is that JV is an elephant in the room.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I have a question for anyone that feels like answering though. Did you guys really dislike the ranged aspect of ret? I have no idea why they removed it, being able to use FV from range, judgement from range and exo from range feels wonderful especially during highly mobile fights. Did anyone dislike this style of play? They stated ret started to feel more like a caster (which isn't exactly right), does anyone feel that way?

Not at all.
I grew accustomed to it.
It feels natural, logical and fluid.
I'm really, really liking it.
Eventhough EmpS is a clusterfeth while Slaying Scripted Dragons, it feels like home when PvPing, you can augment aspects you find lacking or appropriate to buff, sort of stances, but with a nice touch of Paladin feel.
Yes, I do love EmpS a lot.

Yes, Ret in it's current shape lacks some certain melee "oomph!", but you're never out of options and buttons to press nomatter how far your target is.
Having our current mobility model it feels only natural to be able to generate HoPo from range and do some amount of damage from range, as we are less likely to get into melee fast and for long, so we compensate it via ranged potential, and once we connect, usually we ALREADy have resources to unleash hell/do damage at all.

The only thing I dislike about current Ret PvP is Emancipate spam.
I hate it with a passion.
Or rather, the amount of slows you routinely have to go through.

[Ulthane]

Just stacking on more damage won't fix the problem. It'll either make us broken strong or broken weak.

No actually it would fix a lot and give us our niche. Here is why.

-Judgment uptime means we have a more fluid rotation and now our mastery wont be fully punished by weak mobility
-Lower SoV cd gives us more of an on demand absorb. A while ago @Nuin said it should function like a stronger version of Sacred Shield. I agree with him.
-Higher damage output will cover the weakness of no - low mobility. Why? Because in BGs we become a meat grinder, bring stuff to us via cc and grips and we get there and blow it up. In PvE most things in raid will require mobility, our downtime is mobility issues. Our dps will be made up by having higher damage capabilities.

Blizzard said they wanted us to be low mobility but high defense and high damage. This is how you take their system and make it work. So i disagree with you.

[Snegovik]

I think Blizzard needs to revert change on our shield wall or make it 30-40% both magical/physical, 20% is simply not enough

[Aeluron Lightsong]

That Niche(As dumb as it is) might be workable in PVP but from a PVE standpoint, I don't believe our mobility should be gutted like that. I also think Word of Glory should be brought back as baseline. It was a nice ability IMO, for PVP just change the numbers so self healing isn't OP. Honestly, I don't understand why it's a talent now. In WoD(I hate referencing it but damn) there were times using Word of Glory quickly to heal someone. The way our rotation works now, no way in hell can you heal or anything like that.

Divine Protection I'll agree make it to maybe 30% and maybe do a 2 minute CD(I mean it is a big jump). I'd also say Divine Protection can have(And I've used it several times in PVE) so it's definitely a good defensive CD and is interesting to use when big damage comes out.

@Ulthane: That Shield of Vengeance idea looks dope but seems a week bit OP.

[Deleted]

So the only classes where BoP is actually going to be usefull is partly Hunter , Combat rogue , Warrior and Feral. The rest can ignor BoP just simple.

Not even them, any and every DD spec can still hurt you during BoP with some of their attacks now, because they deal magic damage. Most of those attacks are in fact talents, artifact traits or their artifact ability directly.

That's why BoP now is officially crap if you want to use it "in a pinch". It won't save you or anyone else, if you really want to use it for "defense" and not as a supporting "glorified CC remove".

@Ulthane @Aeluron Lightsong
My take on SoV simply was to make it a 45 sek physical buff on you that generates every 15 sec (maybe reduced by haste) a magical absorb shield that absorbs around ~350% of AP (or a fixed % of max life if too weak) - EVERY 15 sec. Put the cd around 1min 30 sec (already minus 3/3 artifact trait, so 1 min cd aka 15 sec downtime with 3 surplus relics) and it's alright. (I mean the spell, not our whole defense altogether)
Would help a bit against dispells, would help greatly for sustained defense, works for class fantasy and fucks up all without a dispell wanting to train you down.

@Ulthane
Oh, and since I forgot: Yep Bolts from Holy Wrath during EotH would be alright as far as animation goes. Only that the trait is worthless with only granting +15% damage. What a boring trait...

[Deleted]

Not even them, any and every DD spec can still hurt you during BoP with some of their attacks now, because they deal magic damage. Most of those attacks are in fact talents, artifact traits or their artifact ability directly.

That's why BoP now is officially crap if you want to use it "in a pinch". It won't save you.

Yeah , thats what i meant there . That it is only really usefull against these guys there and everybody else just kind of ignors it.
Or as @Snegovik put it . It is virtually only a "get off of my healer" or second trinket type of thing for your mates - with a 4-5 min CD.
And the reason why i Put it in there to have everything there we can muster.
So it is , all in all , a highly less usefull version of AMS. It has still it's uses certainly , but to say it is a strong tool is just ridiculess.

Maybe it will yet be good for PvE and it is a Sort of stronger version of Sac. At least this we could have.

Oh and before anybody comes at me with the bullshit BoK again. As i said we are kind of squishi and are dying rather fast as far is i could see it in Legion Streams.
So a thing like BoK may be a good thing for long attricion like fights , but short terms fights like we are build upon currently? Doubtfull that it is really strong there.
A nice to have tool if anything else.

[Ulthane]

Not even them, any and every DD spec can still hurt you during BoP with some of their attacks now, because they deal magic damage. Most of those attacks are in fact talents, artifact traits or their artifact ability directly.

That's why BoP now is officially crap if you want to use it "in a pinch". It won't save you or anyone else, if you really want to use it for "defense" and not as a supporting "glorified CC remove".

@Ulthane @Aeluron Lightsong
My take on SoV simply was to make it a 45 sek physical buff on you that generates every 15 sec (maybe reduced by haste) a magical absorb shield that absorbs around ~350% of AP (or a fixed % of max life if too weak) - EVERY 15 sec. Put the cd around 1min 30 sec (already minus 3/3 artifact trait) and it's alright. (I mean the spell, not our whole defense altogether)
Would help a bit against dispells, would help greatly for sustained defense, works for class fantasy and fucks up all without a dispell wanting to train you down.

That is what I was referring to. Because your idea was really fleshed out.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't hate your idea but I think it would be a lot of juggling to handle, especially with Judgement Smash still being a mechanic. If that wasn't a thing I'd say go for it bro.

[Snegovik]

My take on SoV simply was to make it a 45 sek physical buff on you that generates every 15 sec (maybe reduced by haste) a magical absorb shield that absorbs around ~350% of AP (or a fixed % of max life if too weak) - EVERY 15 sec. Put the cd around 1min 30 sec (already minus 3/3 artifact trait, so 1 min cd aka 15 sec downtime with 3 surplus relics) and it's alright. (I mean the spell, not our whole defense altogether)
Would help a bit against dispells, would help greatly for sustained defense, works for class fantasy and fucks up all without a dispell wanting to train you down.

I agree with this, we need some type of constant/passive short cd Defensive ability that can not be purged,SS,dispelled. Upgrading SoV like it was described above would be a right step towards Blizzard's decision to make Ret 0-mobility melee.

I also think SoV should reflect dmg (or % of the dmg) back similar to E4E not just release dmg absorbs when Sov expires. I mean lets face it, Ret was tunneled down 90% of the rated pvp games since wrath, thats Cata, MOP, WOD 3 xpac when ppl would tunnel vision us to the ground and there is little we could do to discourage that tactic, because it always works. I think enough is enough, blizzard should give us tools to give a middle finger to ppl who will tunnel us all game long, hence we need a passive E4E or shorter cd SoV.

[Deleted]

I think enough is enough, blizzard should give us tools to give a middle finger to ppl who will tunnel us all game long, hence we need a passive E4E or shorter cd SoV.

I agree, but careful - they might say they just did so with implementing Equality

[Ulthane]

I don't hate your idea but I think it would be a lot of juggling to handle, especially with Judgement Smash still being a mechanic. If that wasn't a thing I'd say go for it bro.

Which is why first thing is first: DUration needs to be increased on Judgment to 12 -30 seconds flat.

[Teleros]

On Shield of Vengeance: Honestly this spell is definitely unique but I am indifferent to it. I don't hate it but I'm not in love with it either.

Ditto.

= + =

so the Holy Wrath animation on Echo, you agree that would be awesome? Using your TV and DS then BOOOM holy bolts bombarding them as you slice into them.

Yeah. The only issue would be the source of the holy bolts - can't really have them emerging from the Ashbringer as you wave it around for your attack animations.

Perhaps they could come from a ghostly figure of Alexandros or Tirion...?

Alternatively, if you want something less complicated, get a shiny gold reskin of the Ashbringer, and use it in the Final Verdict animation. You smack the target with TV, and a big golden Ashbringer smacks it just after as well.

I feel though in some fashion down the road that we should be able to commune with Alexandros' and Tirion's spirits. I honestly would like to see this given the circumstances with the Four Horseman.

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Nonetheless the animation has to bloody change, dear god D: anything, a golden glow when you do the slice that signifies the proc, holy wrath bolts, something dear god.

IIRC, Dancing Rune Weapon works by having an invisible human female wielding your weapon; I'm guessing Blizzard just did the same for Echo. It works for DKs, given how a similar thing was done for Naxxramas magical weapon trash back at L60 (and at L80). For Rets though... eh there's just nothing to tie that method to the Ashbringer.

= + =

Personally i loved it, this is the reason I play Ret even now despite its total crap in rated PvP, it made our spec stand out among rest of melee by the way we play, aka being range in plate (even though we are no where OP or decent at that matter).
...
Hence, who ever says Ret is like a caster, that person has no clue what the feth he or she is talking about. Yes Ret has a lot of range abilities but outside of wings, our range abilities do not hit hard in none-execution range. So no, Ret does not feel anywhere like a caster, it feels like a very unique play-style melee, which is very enjoyable from my personal pov.

Agreed, though I think with the whole "wings = HoW" thing it went too far. But I fondly remember videos of Hofflerand kiting warriors in the deadzone between melee range and charge range with Judgement and Divine Storm in WotLK, or heck having ES, Judgement & Final Verdict now.

That said, I don't really mind if we become more like a traditional melee class, so long as it's done well.

= + =

I can tell you right now, this will not be usable in PvP for 2 reasons: 1) 60 min cd 2) the outrage ppl will give to pallies on FC maps, basically u can leave ur FC alone with that buff on a flag cap and just do 9 men rush enemy team.

I'm pretty sure Divine Intervention made you drop the flag .

= + =

Shield of Vengeance doesn't do damage unless it breaks? I wasn't aware of that honestly, I only got to test for 2 days.

It was "consumed or expires", now it's just "consumed":

http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=1846...ance#changelog

But yeah, 10% of your HP on 2 min CD is fucking stupid. You realize Flash of Light heals more than Shield of Vengeance?

Hmm. Thinking about it actually, ES was 1,000% AP initially, and yet it's now up to 1,620% AP. So it's probably not unreasonable to flat out double Shield of Vengeance's absorb amount: if a single spell can do 1,620%, I think you can probably expect enemy PvPers to do 2,000% AP over 15 seconds (!).

= + =

We are one , if not the only , specc in game whos defence and offence can be countered that easily and doesn't even have the option for us to do anything against it.

True.

I don't really mind much if Ret can be countered by casters or melee or whatever - what I mind is how simple it is to do so. BoP => purge. BoF => purge. SoV => purge.

Where's the skill? The strategy? "NamePlateCooldowns / Gladius / WeakAuras / etc says hit purge..."

The removal of Shattering throw was a good start , but things like Spellsteal or mass dispel are still a thing there.

It's worth bearing in mind the state of the game when Spellsteal and Mass Dispel were added: TBC. A Ret paladin with a Disc priest in tow would have on him:

• Blessing of Might/Kings/Freedom/...
• Righteous Fury
• Avenging Wrath (!)
• Power Word: Fortitude
• Power Word: Shield
• Divine Spirit
• Renew
• Up to 30% dispel resistance (+65% with Pain Suppression)
• Spell resist gear, enchants and talents (including reduced spell hit chance talents)

Under those circumstances, spammy Spellsteal and Mass "targets bubble first" Dispel is rather more reasonable. But today...?

• Power Word: Shield
• Clarity of Will
• Angelic Feather
• Blessing of Freedom / Protection
• Shield of Vengeance

In other words, you can't really throw a load of filler buffs on and hope the mage steals BoM instead of wings.

Now you might say that we have bubble. And my answer to that question is : So fucking what? Bubble is probably the most overrated thing in the entire game and the little fact that we can now deal full dps while in it ..... measn very little at least in PvP. In my honest opinion this is for the most part a simple PvE thing.
And the reason for that is rather simple aswell. You see , if you have been forced to use bubble in PvP , that means you get your shit kicked in and are most likely somewhat low on HP. And with that your highest priority is to stay alive and with that heal yourself up. The problem with that is , in the time you have done so the duration of the bubble will almost always be gone the moment you can reengage with your opponents. While it is true that is strong and that it can virtually reset the fight - or at least in duells - it still does not , and will never , constitute for a real flexible defense.

Actually, I think doing full damage within bubble will help in PvP. Until Legion, bubble meant your enemies had a chance to reset the fight whilst you healed up. In Legion however, you can continue on the offensive whilst taking no damage, whilst your healer tops you up safely.

This is by no means foolproof or perfect or anything like that, my point is just that you shouldn't overlook this.

= + =

Remember when I said that SoV should be on a 1 minute CD. This is why. Everyone kept going off saying that would be too OP. <_< welllll......

Won't help. If SoV is ~10% of your health, then being able to use it every minute doesn't help when you need as much damage reduction as possible RIGHT NOW.

= + =

these 2 defenses are no where enough for a melee class to have 0 mobility and be viable in rated pvp.

It's fine, you can take Eye for an Eye too.

/Reg

= + =

Not even them, any and every DD spec can still hurt you during BoP with some of their attacks now, because they deal magic damage. Most of those attacks are in fact talents, artifact traits or their artifact ability directly.

I don't think Outlaw rogues have any magical damage, for what it's worth. So there's that.

My take on SoV simply was to make it a 45 sek physical buff on you that generates every 15 sec (maybe reduced by haste) a magical absorb shield that absorbs around ~350% of AP (or a fixed % of max life if too weak) - EVERY 15 sec. Put the cd around 1min 30 sec (already minus 3/3 artifact trait, so 1 min cd aka 15 sec downtime with 3 surplus relics) and it's alright. (I mean the spell, not our whole defense altogether)
Would help a bit against dispells, would help greatly for sustained defense, works for class fantasy and fucks up all without a dispell wanting to train you down.

Divine Protection: Reduces all damage you take by 30% for 8 seconds. 2min CD, non-magic buff.
Shield of Vengeance: Reduces all damage you take by 25% AP and reflects that damage back to the attacker as Holy damage. Passive / always active non-magic buff.
Deflection (Trait): Reduces the cooldown of Divine Protection by 10/20/30/40/50/60 seconds.

Adjust the AP coefficient for Shield of Vengeance as you see fit (though 25% AP means roughly 50% damage reduction from, say, the Immolate DoT from Destro warlocks, and lets you basically ignore Deadly Poison's DoT pre-mastery).

[Snegovik]

I agree, but careful - they might say they just did so with implementing Equality

If they say it, i will counter with "please break 2k cr in 3s before trying to balance Ret in pvp" since above 2k, people will have no issue kitting or peeling you further than 8 yards, so u can't use equality ))))

[Temna]

Yeah. The only issue would be the source of the holy bolts - can't really have them emerging from the Ashbringer as you wave it around for your attack animations.

Could do, since they came staticly from the emblem on the Ashbringer, wouldnt be that weird honestly compared to my BElf's spine going haywire from cloak procs back in the day. Though speaking honestly, I would love to see it return in some way...maybe with splash damage? (<3 siege tanks/that voidray variant with the many lasers)

[Bolt66]

Could do, since they came staticly from the emblem on the Ashbringer, wouldnt be that weird honestly compared to my BElf's spine going haywire from cloak procs back in the day. Though speaking honestly, I would love to see it return in some way...maybe with splash damage? (<3 siege tanks/that voidray variant with the many lasers)

Yeah it would be fine for it to come out of the Ashbringer still, just make the weapon glow or something. I intensely dislike the animations where there is just a hovering weapon appearing out of nowhere and doing things.