The Great American Lie: Work Earns Living Wage

[Bodakane]

You need a hug, don't you? You keep wanting to move the goal posts, but you haven't asked nicely.

I'm going to make sure to paint things in that brown you posted (and swear it's yellow). When I get cited, I'll send you the bill.

Filthy corporatist.

Wow what a piece of shit. I'm not moving anything.

You could shut me up and humiliate me in front of the entire board right here and right now, just post the law.

[Gestopft]

Also, When was the last time these "factory jobs" (that you were "clearly" talking about) were the "backbone" of the US economy? 20 years or so?

The percentage of US workers in manufacturing has been declining since the early 60's when nearly a quarter of the workforce was in manufacturing, so it's been a while. The point is that those manufacturing jobs paid decent wages and low-skill workers could raise a family on them. Now with the disappearance of the manufacturing sector (down to 8%), the low-skill jobs in other sectors are not paying the same living wage that the manufacturing jobs once did.

People keep spouting off "low-skill jobs aren't meant for you to live off of," or "fast food jobs are meant for teenagers" (btw, 70% of fast-food employees aren't teenagers), but our parents and grandparents had access to low-skill jobs that paid living wages. Now low-skill workers are being told that they don't deserve that.

[Theinquisition]

The percentage of US workers in manufacturing has been declining since the early 60's when nearly a quarter of the workforce was in manufacturing, so it's been a while. The point is that those manufacturing jobs paid decent wages and low-skill workers could raise a family on them. Now with the disappearance of the manufacturing sector (down to 8%), the low-skill jobs in other sectors are not paying the same living wage that the manufacturing jobs once did.

People keep spouting off "low-skill jobs aren't meant for you to live off of," or "fast food jobs are meant for teenagers" (btw, 70% of fast-food employees aren't teenagers), but our parents and grandparents had access to low-skill jobs that paid living wages. Now low-skill workers are being told that they don't deserve that.

That's globalization for ya.

If it costs 5 cents to make a widget in Mexico and 5 dollars to make that same widget in the U.S.....well guess what will happen.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

So care to explain why the unemployment ALWAYS have gone down when we have increase the min wage. really common sense isnt very common anymore in this world too many believe in that right wing nonsense of higher wages kills jobs

That is simply not true, Sorry. For the sake of argument though, I'd be entertained to see what mental hoops you have to jump through to demonstrate a causal relationship between your fantasy correlations.

[Theinquisition]

That is simply not true, Sorry. For the sake of argument though, I'd be entertained to see what mental hoops you have to jump through to demonstrate a causal relationship between your fantasy correlations.

Lol

This should be fun.

[Gestopft]

That's globalization for ya.

If it costs 5 cents to make a widget in Mexico and 5 dollars to make that same widget in the U.S.....well guess what will happen.

That explains why manufacturing jobs are moving overseas, but that doesn't explain why low-skill workers used to make a decent wage but now they "don't deserve it."

Scary statistic I found by the way- Over 50% of Americans made under $30,000 last year.

[Glorious Leader]

That's globalization for ya.

If it costs 5 cents to make a widget in Mexico and 5 dollars to make that same widget in the U.S.....well guess what will happen.

That's what's called "free trade" done in pursuit of so called "free markets". Theirs an excellent quote from karl polyani who references von mises.

". [Ludwig Von] Mises justly argued that if workers 'did not act as trade unionists, but reduced their demands and changed their locations and occupations according to the labour market, they would eventually find work.' This sums up the position under a system based on the postulate of the commodity character of labour. It is not for the commodity to decide where it should be offered for sale, to what purpose it should be used, at what price it should be allowed to change hands, and in what manner it should be consumed or destroyed.
"

Of course the commodity labor happens to be people but who gives a shit?

[ArguesWithStrangers]

That explains why manufacturing jobs are moving overseas, but that doesn't explain why low-skill workers used to make a decent wage but now they "don't deserve it."

Scary statistic I found by the way- Over 50% of Americans made under $30,000 last year.

Well, It all depends on how you see wages. If you see them as a reward, then I guess we could argue until we are blue in the face about who deserves what. It ultimately wouldn't matter though because anyone's opinion would be as valid as anyone else's effectively rendering all opinions useless. If however, you see wages for what they are, a means of attracting qualified and willing employees, you realize that wages grow proportionally to the need for and scarcity of the service provided.

When we needed lots of hands on assembly lines, the manufacturing employers didn't pay well out of the goodness of their hearts. They payed well because they had to in order to keep the required number of employees to maintain production. With advances in automation and the results of globalization, it became more efficient to use robots or less expensive employees elsewhere.

What you are paid has nothing to do with who you are and what kind of life we'd like you to have. It has everything to do with what it requires to entice you to do a certain job. If the pay is not enough for you and you can find a better deal elsewhere, more power to you. If you cannot find a better offer, it just might be that your skills are not in sufficient demand.

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That's what's called "free trade" done in pursuit of so called "free markets". Theirs an excellent quote from karl polyani who references von mises.

". [Ludwig Von] Mises justly argued that if workers 'did not act as trade unionists, but reduced their demands and changed their locations and occupations according to the labour market, they would eventually find work.' This sums up the position under a system based on the postulate of the commodity character of labour. It is not for the commodity to decide where it should be offered for sale, to what purpose it should be used, at what price it should be allowed to change hands, and in what manner it should be consumed or destroyed.
"

Of course the commodity labor happens to be people but who gives a shit?

This country was built by millions of immigrants who traveled over oceans and lawless frontiers risking attack by hostile Indians and other settlers just for the chance to make a living. Spare me if I don't shed a tear for someone who won't get on the interstate, move to a new city and learn a new trade.

[breadisfunny]

Sounds like you need more education if you are only making $15 an hour. Seriously what did you major in?

The best part is you have no idea how much I make atm. I also hate to burst your bubble, but I know people without a HS/GED diploma making much more than you already.

where are these jobs? oh wait are they construction jobs?

[ArguesWithStrangers]

where are these jobs? oh wait are they construction jobs?

Don't turn your nose up at the trades. Electricians, plumbers, welders, machinists etc. are doing very well right now because there is a shortage of them and they are highly skilled. I'd send my kid to a trade school before I'd let them go into debt for an arts and humanities degree.

[breadisfunny]

Don't turn your nose up at the trades. Electricians, plumbers, welders, machinists etc. are doing very well right now because there is a shortage of them and they are highly skilled. I'd send my kid to a trade school before I'd let them go into debt for an arts and humanities degree.

i am physically unable to do heavy work. severely underweight.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

i am physically unable to do heavy work. severely underweight.

Not saying you have to be one of these things. Just saying don't turn your nose up at those who are. Also, hard work and hard labor are not to be confused. There are a great many trade skills that don't require strong physical stature. If you find one you are interested in and put in the time and effort to learn, you can do very well for yourself. Just don't live under the falsehood that your profession has to be the thing in the world you are most interested in. I'm really interested in history, culture, languages, and religion. None of those things are how I currently make my living. So long as you interested enough in it that you do it well, are reasonably happy, and can reach your financial goals, you will be living a good life.

[breadisfunny]

i want to be an accountant. that will never happen though. i messed up too much in school had the smarts to go do well but never applied myself. i am a lost cause.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

i want to be an accountant. that will never happen though. i messed up too much in school had the smarts to go do well but never applied myself. i am a lost cause.

First step is out your door man. You're only a lost cause if you decide you are. Not saying it will be easy. I guarantee it won't. Hardship is what makes us better though. I hope you make the right choice and feel the satisfaction that comes with realizing you worked hard and earned your pay. Good luck.

[Sorrior]

That's because our America and the America in which our parents grew up in are different. You could get paid well to do factory work because there were a ton of factories and not enough workers to fill all the positions. Factory work was also inherently more dangerous than it is now, so not every person would or could work in a factory/production style job back in the day.

America isn't ass backwards, the thought process of some Americans are still stuck in the past. We are almost the only country that would consider a Mcjob commensurate with being financially independent. Most other countries give out a massive amount of social hand-outs or are simply just plain cheap to live in because they aren't as developed as we are.

We are a consumerist nation, and we have the job-market of one. Few low to no skilled jobs exist, and most of them exist to either employ young adults who are moving through professionally because they also go to school or they exist for people with no skills and no education. If you are part of the latter group, in order to be financially independent you better make concessions. You can have roommates and lower your living cost so you can still have some luxuries, or you can pinch to the bone and live on your own, but expect to have very few luxuries, if any.

No the lack of the very support programs you mention is exactly why we are ass backwards. And why we are so fucked in various ways.

You act like gainful employment is something everyone can have with jobs becoming more finite.

We need to adapt this true but not the people the employers the politicians a d laws need to change to better serve the people

[Cthulhu 2020]

That is simply not true, Sorry. For the sake of argument though, I'd be entertained to see what mental hoops you have to jump through to demonstrate a causal relationship between your fantasy correlations.

There's a short term small spike in unemployment, in a lot of places there's no spike, and then a long term trend towards lower unemployment because of increased economic velocity. The impact is rather minor though, and we've certainly never seen the mass unemployment booms that people claim happen after minimum wage rises.

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That's globalization for ya.

If it costs 5 cents to make a widget in Mexico and 5 dollars to make that same widget in the U.S.....well guess what will happen.

Just to address things you've been saying the last few pages, I'm all for reviewing regulations that are unnecessary. But it was explained to me earlier that it's not the regulations that are the problem, it's how they're enforced and how you can get fines for doing the process improperly despite following the law. The process should be greatly stream lined. But it is not necessarily the regulations themselves that are the problem.

[Theinquisition]

i want to be an accountant. that will never happen though. i messed up too much in school had the smarts to go do well but never applied myself. i am a lost cause.

With an attitude like that......

Don't drag yourself down, you should be your biggest cheeleader.

[breadisfunny]

With an attitude like that......

Don't drag yourself down, you should be your biggest cheeleader.

i'm 29 not getting any younger. wish i could go back and focus on studies in high school instead of coasting through with c's and d's.

[rhackin]

I suspect there are a large number of millennials on internet game forums who have graduated college, expect to be handed a $100k a year job and are seduced by the utopian promises of intellectually dishonest people such as Bernie Sanders. Here's something that you should have been taught by your Hippie parents - You don't deserve to be handed jack shit from anyone. Get off your ass and take some risks.

[Omega10]

People keep spouting off "low-skill jobs aren't meant for you to live off of," or "fast food jobs are meant for teenagers" (btw, 70% of fast-food employees aren't teenagers), but our parents and grandparents had access to low-skill jobs that paid living wages. Now low-skill workers are being told that they don't deserve that.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I suspect there are a large number of millennials on internet game forums who have graduated college, expect to be handed a $100k a year job and are seduced by the utopian promises of intellectually dishonest people such as Bernie Sanders.

You are 100 percent wrong. There is NO ONE who thinks that. Not even close. First you make up some false characterizations of other people, and then you get upset about the characteristics of your imaginary nonexistent people.