The Great American Lie: Work Earns Living Wage

[ArguesWithStrangers]

i'm 29 not getting any younger. wish i could go back and focus on studies in high school instead of coasting through with c's and d's.

I'm 33 and just changed careers because I decided to become a pilot. My sister is in her fifties and is about to have a PhD in Nursing. She started school about 5 Years ago. You just have to want it and be willing to work for it man.

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You are 100 percent wrong. There is NO ONE who thinks that. Not even close. First you make up some false characterizations of other people, and then you get upset about the characteristics of your imaginary nonexistent people.

While he is certainly making generalizations, so are you. There are a great many people, millennial or otherwise who believe just that. It's not like they've been trying to hide it. We're not making this stuff up out of thin air. It is just as dishonest to mis-characterize a group of people positively as it is to mis-characterize them negatively.

[Cricket22]

i'm 29 not getting any younger. wish i could go back and focus on studies in high school instead of coasting through with c's and d's.

Why on earth would you do something like that? You do realize that if you're over the age of 25, as long as you have a high school diploma, you can pretty much go to any college you want, right? Over that age, most colleges don't even look at your SAT scores or grades, you just walk in the door, sign up for whatever classes you want to take and pay your tuition, that's it.

If you live on your own and don't earn that much, the better to qualify for those free federal Pell grants--no repayment required. Some colleges have special scholarships earmarked just for "returning adults" meaning, age 25 and older.

A number of companies also offer tuition reimbursement, for as long as you remain in their employment. For example, any class you make an A, they'll reimburse 100% of your tuition, a B is normally worth 80-90%, a C around 60-70%, etc.

After high school, I left home and traveled around for several years before returning to college myself -- and paid almost nothing. No loans, graduated debt free. Also only took 3 years for my undergraduate because I tested out of a full year by taking CLEP tests.

High school? If I showed up 3 days in a week, that was a good week for me. For my senior high school yearbook, they put a pic of me sound asleep at my desk, which was all I normally went to class for. After all, had to sleep sometime, right?

Made straight As through college though, because there, I actually went to every class and gave it my full attention.

No reason you can't do it too.

[Polyxo]

What people who support the idea of a less than living wage for full time work are suggesting is that doing said job requires the government to exist at all. Many of these jobs are imperative for those companies to survive. Essentially, they're creating a situation where the government is responsible for ensuring those companies exist at all.

[Gestopft]

Well, It all depends on how you see wages. If you see them as a reward, then I guess we could argue until we are blue in the face about who deserves what. It ultimately wouldn't matter though because anyone's opinion would be as valid as anyone else's effectively rendering all opinions useless. If however, you see wages for what they are, a means of attracting qualified and willing employees, you realize that wages grow proportionally to the need for and scarcity of the service provided.

Right. And this is a real problem when it comes to low-skill positions (positions, not people). Since applicants to these positions have essentially zero bargaining power, they are basically stuck taking whatever wages are offered. History has shown us that without appropriate minimum wages or collective bargaining, the wages from said jobs are often unlivable. There are a few ramifications of this:
1) Increased taxpayer burden- the already squeezed middle class ends up subsidizing the rest of what these workers need to live
2) Stunted economic growth- disposable income is important for a diversified consumer economy. With welfare jobs, the lower class (obviously) doesn't have much disposable income, the middle class gets squeezed taking care of the lower class, and lots of money gets stashed away at the top
3) Decreased opportunity- investing in bettering one's self takes time and/or money. When you hardly have enough money to take care of yourself, or you have to work multiple jobs to keep up, it makes it harder to get an education, learn a trade, etc. Our poor social mobility compared to other developed nations can attest to this
4) Increases stress on families- money troubles, lower parental involvement, etc.

All of theses sound like negatives to me, but god forbid we tread on the sanctity of the free market and try and do something about it.

When we needed lots of hands on assembly lines, the manufacturing employers didn't pay well out of the goodness of their hearts. They payed well because they had to in order to keep the required number of employees to maintain production. With advances in automation and the results of globalization, it became more efficient to use robots or less expensive employees elsewhere.

Unions may have had something to do with that too.

What you are paid has nothing to do with who you are and what kind of life we'd like you to have. It has everything to do with what it requires to entice you to do a certain job. If the pay is not enough for you and you can find a better deal elsewhere, more power to you. If you cannot find a better offer, it just might be that your skills are not in sufficient demand.

Let's say I go get a skill. Yay, me. Now the company I left is going to hire someone new for that vacant position. Now they are in the same bind. This is why I talk about positions, not people. Until the machines take over, these jobs exist, and companies need somebody to do the work. Improving your marketability is an individual solution. It doesn't work at a societal level, because somebody is still going to have to do the grunt work. Everybody can go learn a marketable skill, but that doesn't mean there is going to be a job available- there are always more foot soldiers than generals. Given the inevitability of people in low-skill positions, we as a society have to ask ourselves what the lowest standard of living should be for productive members of society.

Furthermore, the economy is actually struggling if you aren't already rich. Wages are stagnating for the middle and lower classes. Low-wage industries are the fastest growing sources of new jobs. College grads having a harder time finding relevant work, and minimum wage workers are taking longer to move up. Unlike what some people have said, asking for solutions isn't a sign of laziness or unwillingness to work hard.

[Emjay18]

First step is out your door man. You're only a lost cause if you decide you are. Not saying it will be easy. I guarantee it won't. Hardship is what makes us better though. I hope you make the right choice and feel the satisfaction that comes with realizing you worked hard and earned your pay. Good luck.

How about you take your hard work talk and pay back the taxpayer that gave your ass a free ride in the armed forces, welfare sponge? You can try paying for your own fucking healthcare through the years before denigriating someone working 40 hours a week to do it alone.

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If you live on your own and don't earn that much, the better to qualify for those free federal Pell grants--no repayment required. Some colleges have special scholarships earmarked just for "returning adults" meaning, age 25 and older.

You think pell grants cover tuition that easily costs over $60,000 and usually more?

A number of companies also offer tuition reimbursement, for as long as you remain in their employment. For example, any class you make an A, they'll reimburse 100% of your tuition, a B is normally worth 80-90%, a C around 60-70%, etc.

Companies that likely require degrees, yes? Assuming they still exist.

After high school, I left home and traveled around for several years before returning to college myself -- and paid almost nothing. No loans, graduated debt free. Also only took 3 years for my undergraduate because I tested out of a full year by taking CLEP tests.

Year, please. This ought to be a good one.

[Alydael]

The percentage of US workers in manufacturing has been declining since the early 60's when nearly a quarter of the workforce was in manufacturing, so it's been a while. The point is that those manufacturing jobs paid decent wages and low-skill workers could raise a family on them. Now with the disappearance of the manufacturing sector (down to 8%), the low-skill jobs in other sectors are not paying the same living wage that the manufacturing jobs once did.

People keep spouting off "low-skill jobs aren't meant for you to live off of," or "fast food jobs are meant for teenagers" (btw, 70% of fast-food employees aren't teenagers), but our parents and grandparents had access to low-skill jobs that paid living wages. Now low-skill workers are being told that they don't deserve that.

To me, it isn't a matter of deserving a living wage or not. The job pays what it pays, you take it or you don't. I have had jobs that I liked, but had to leave because I would not be able to pay my bills working there. Should those jobs have paid me a living wage so I could stay?

To get my current job, I had to go through: 4 years undergrad, two years graduate studies, a half year internship and pass four certification tests. If you were not born into money, you basically have to work your but off to get ahead (or be really lucky somehow).

I would ask the workers that do not make enough to live off their current wage what they are doing to better themselves so that they can get a better job. There are no secrets. The job tells you what they will pay you, you know how much your bills/living expenses are. You should know if the job will be able to support you before you take it....

[kamuimac]

Why on earth would you do something like that? You do realize that if you're over the age of 25, as long as you have a high school diploma, you can pretty much go to any college you want, right? Over that age, most colleges don't even look at your SAT scores or grades, you just walk in the door, sign up for whatever classes you want to take and pay your tuition, that's it.

If you live on your own and don't earn that much, the better to qualify for those free federal Pell grants--no repayment required. Some colleges have special scholarships earmarked just for "returning adults" meaning, age 25 and older.

A number of companies also offer tuition reimbursement, for as long as you remain in their employment. For example, any class you make an A, they'll reimburse 100% of your tuition, a B is normally worth 80-90%, a C around 60-70%, etc.

After high school, I left home and traveled around for several years before returning to college myself -- and paid almost nothing. No loans, graduated debt free. Also only took 3 years for my undergraduate because I tested out of a full year by taking CLEP tests.

High school? If I showed up 3 days in a week, that was a good week for me. For my senior high school yearbook, they put a pic of me sound asleep at my desk, which was all I normally went to class for. After all, had to sleep sometime, right?

Made straight As through college though, because there, I actually went to every class and gave it my full attention.

No reason you can't do it too.

the only thing - it requires effort - thats too much for them - they would rather sit all day on couch and whine that employers dont knock on their door begging them to come to work.

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You think pell grants cover tuition that easily costs over $60,000 and usually more?

then go and take a f... loan from a bank just like milions of people with higher education did for years now - you want to earn more ? invest first.

[Gestopft]

I would ask the workers that do not make enough to live off their current wage what they are doing to better themselves so that they can get a better job. There are no secrets. The job tells you what they will pay you, you know how much your bills/living expenses are. You should know if the job will be able to support you before you take it....

1) As I said just above in a response to someone else, everybody can go better themselves, but there are still going to be workers in those jobs as long as the jobs are needed. This is an individual solution, but it doesn't address the problem at a societal level. There just aren't enough good jobs right now. People are taking longer to leave minimum wage jobs. College grads are taking longer to find work. Our social mobility is poor compared to other developed countries. Nobody is saying people shouldn't try hard and make an effort to be more marketable, but in our current economy, fewer people are succeeding. This overall economic trend requires a solution more than just "people should try harder."

2) People take jobs that can't support them because they can't afford to not have jobs, even if the job is bad. The choice is between having a bad job and having no job. People applying for those jobs lack bargaining power to demand higher wages, so they have to settle for what is being offered, but it's better to take the job (hopefully while looking for a better one) than to not have an income.

[Sorrior]

I suspect there are a large number of millennials on internet game forums who have graduated college, expect to be handed a $100k a year job and are seduced by the utopian promises of intellectually dishonest people such as Bernie Sanders. Here's something that you should have been taught by your Hippie parents - You don't deserve to be handed jack shit from anyone. Get off your ass and take some risks.

You mean like college? Which is currently a massive financial risk.

[Alydael]

1) As I said just above in a response to someone else, everybody can go better themselves, but there are still going to be workers in those jobs as long as the jobs are needed. This is an individual solution, but it doesn't address the problem at a societal level. There just aren't enough good jobs right now. People are taking longer to leave minimum wage jobs. College grads are taking longer to find work. Our social mobility is poor compared to other developed countries. Nobody is saying people shouldn't try hard and make an effort to be more marketable, but in our current economy, fewer people are succeeding. This overall economic trend requires a solution more than just "people should try harder."

2) People take jobs that can't support them because they can't afford to not have jobs, even if the job is bad. The choice is between having a bad job and having no job. People applying for those jobs lack bargaining power to demand higher wages, so they have to settle for what is being offered, but it's better to take the job (hopefully while looking for a better one) than to not have an income.

As for:

1) This is really the fault of the government. They made all these great and grandiose trade deals and left the American worker screwed. The government should have never signed any trade deals that would cost us jobs. Both parties are guilty of this. This speaks to part of the reason Trump has appeal- Americans are tired of getting shafted by their own "leaders." We kind of expect our "leaders" to support us and sign agreements that protect and benefit us, not some other country.

2) In the case you mentioned, you take the job "for now," go back to school or training to get a better job. It is what I did to get through college. Was it easy, hell no! I thought of giving up probably over a million times, but I knew I had to find the tenacity to hang in there (it was my life and future on the line after all). I expect other people to do the same.

*) Side note: the next challenge is automation. As the economy automates- more jobs will be lost. We need a really good plan to mitigate this loss. Unfortunately, we have to rely on our "leaders" for this. They are too busy schmoozing, campaign fund raising, partying and going on vacation to care.

Guess what? Automation is already happening and fast. Their plan is nowhere insight. I am sure they will be "shocked" and "surprised" when millions of jobs are lost to automation. They will say "who could have seen this coming?" Then they will raise taxes, claiming the increased taxes will pay for some half brained scheme that won't ever work

[Gestopft]

As for:

1) This is really the fault of the government. They made all these great and grandiose trade deals and left the American worker screwed. The government should have never signed any trade deals that would cost us jobs. Both parties are guilty of this. This speaks to part of the reason Trump has appeal- Americans are tired of getting shafted by their own "leaders." We kind of expect our "leaders" to support us and sign agreements that protect and benefit us, not some other country.

You've put forth an idea for why we have the problem, but those jobs aren't coming back. It's not going to happen. We need solutions.

Since we're on the topic, manufacturing jobs were already on the decline before those trade deals were signed. While the trade deals may have hastened the process, those jobs were in all likelihood going to leave eventually- the prospect of paying workers in a low-regulation third-world country factory pennies for the same work would've incentivized companies to move overseas anyway.

2) In the case you mentioned, you take the job "for now," go back to school or training to get a better job. It is what I did to get through college. Was it easy, hell no! I thought of giving up probably over a million times, but I knew I had to find the tenacity to hang in there. I expect other people to do the same.

I don't disagree- Liberals actually believe in working hard too, but read 1) again. People simply trying harder isn't going to fix what's wrong with the economy.

[Alydael]

You've put forth an idea for why we have the problem, but those jobs aren't coming back. It's not going to happen. We need solutions.

Since we're on the topic, manufacturing jobs were already on the decline before those trade deals were signed. While the trade deals may have hastened the process, those jobs were in all likelihood going to leave eventually- the prospect of paying workers in a low-regulation third-world country factory pennies for the same work would've incentivized companies to move overseas anyway.



I don't disagree, but read 1) again. People simply trying harder isn't going to fix what's wrong with the economy. Liberals actually believe in working hard too.

As for "read 1) again," this is nothing you or I can fix. This has to be fixed at the government level. It is partially their fault for all the bad deals and agreements they signed over the years, the other part of the "fault" is technology advancing (which no one can do anything about). As far as I can see, no politician has a comprehensible plan to fix this. Trump is the only one talking about it at all, so I guess he would be the closest thing to a step in the right direction on this issue.

As for the "working harder won't fix it" part of your argument. You can not just work harder. You have to work smarter too. You need to turn off your tv for the night (or maybe many nights) and do some research. Do your research, pick a career you like that isn't likely to be eliminated soon. Figure out what training you need and then craft a plan to succeed.

You can't really believe that all the people asking for a living wage from a job that typically hasnever paid a living wage have been doing this.

Also, paying fast food workers 15/hr is a stop gap measure at best. There are already automated food stores. The chains will go that way soon. Then what will those workers do? Maybe they should be retraining now to repair robots so that when the automation happens (as it will) They will still have a job.

[Daerio]

You've put forth an idea for why we have the problem, but those jobs aren't coming back. It's not going to happen. We need solutions.

Since we're on the topic, manufacturing jobs were already on the decline before those trade deals were signed. While the trade deals may have hastened the process, those jobs were in all likelihood going to leave eventually- the prospect of paying workers in a low-regulation third-world country factory pennies for the same work would've incentivized companies to move overseas anyway.

Tariffs imposed on said products are exactly the tool required to fix that imbalance. Corps move overseas to drop labor costs? Raise the taxes on said products to make up the difference and pay for the welfare of the workers those corps left behind.

Of course, that doesn't happen because the workers aren't collectively putting millions of dollars in a politician's pocket, so only one set of interests gets represented.

[Alydael]

You've put forth an idea for why we have the problem, but those jobs aren't coming back. It's not going to happen. We need solutions.

Since we're on the topic, manufacturing jobs were already on the decline before those trade deals were signed. While the trade deals may have hastened the process, those jobs were in all likelihood going to leave eventually- the prospect of paying workers in a low-regulation third-world country factory pennies for the same work would've incentivized companies to move overseas anyway.



I don't disagree- Liberals actually believe in working hard too, but read 1) again. People simply trying harder isn't going to fix what's wrong with the economy.

As for "read 1) again," this is nothing you or I can fix. This has to be fixed at the government level. It is partially their fault for all the bad deals and agreements they signed over the years, the other part of the "fault" is technology advancing (which no one can do anything about). As far as I can see, no politician has a comprehensible plan to fix this. Trump is the only one talking about it at all, so I guess he would be the closest thing to a step in the right direction on this issue.

As for the "working harder won't fix it" part of your argument. You can not just work harder. You have to work smarter too. You need to turn off your tv for the night (or maybe many nights) and do some research. Do your research, pick a career you like that isn't likely to be eliminated soon. Figure out what training you need and then craft a plan to succeed.

You can't really believe that all the people asking for a living wage from a job that typically hasnever paid a living wage have been doing this.

Also, paying fast food workers 15/hr is a stop gap measure at best. There are already automated food stores. The chains will go that way soon. Then what will those workers do? Maybe they should be retraining now to repair robots so that when the automation happens (as it will) They will still have a job.

[Machismo]

Wow what a piece of shit. I'm not moving anything.

You could shut me up and humiliate me in front of the entire board right here and right now, just post the law.

You read the law, it calls for yellow (or other specific colors for different things). Are you going to claim that all yellow colors are accepted? I think we both know that some of those "yellows" you posted would be cited/fined. I happen to know this, because I watched it happen. You are nothing more than a corporatist who's trying to maintain his job security.

Nothing is good enough for you. I wasn't poor enough for you, so you got upset. Everyone else is mean, because they don't give a shit that you let your life go to hell. You are mad that someone is not there to take care of you. Grow a pair, man up, and start taking care of yourself. Stop expecting strangers to give you things, because the world doesn't owe you a fucking dime.

[Daerio]

You read the law, it calls for yellow (or other specific colors for different things). Are you going to claim that all yellow colors are accepted? I think we both know that some of those "yellows" you posted would be cited/fined. I happen to know this, because I watched it happen. You are nothing more than a corporatist who's trying to maintain his job security.

Has this bullshit really been going on for days now, and you guys are still talking about the fucking shade of yellow? Stop feeding the troll.

[Gestopft]

As for "read 1) again," this is nothing you or I can fix. This has to be fixed at the government level. It is partially their fault for all the bad deals and agreements they signed over the years, the other part of the "fault" is technology advancing (which no one can do anything about). As far as I can see, no politician has a comprehensible plan to fix this. Trump is the only one talking about it at all, so I guess he would be the closest thing to a step in the right direction on this issue.

I agree on that point- a lot of free-market economists on the right would probably disagree. Most developed nations are setting higher minimum wages (or use collective bargaining) and investing in affordable higher education, and they still manage to have profitable businesses and balanced budgets.

As for the "working harder won't fix it" part of your argument. You can not just work harder. You have to work smarter too. You need to turn off your tv for the night (or maybe many nights) and do some research. Do your research, pick a career you like that isn't likely to be eliminated soon. Figure out what training you need and then craft a plan to succeed.

You can't really believe that all the people asking for a living wage from a job that typically hasnever paid a living wage have been doing this.

Sorry. By "working harder won't fix it," I was also referring to working smarter too. My point is that individual efforts, while valuable for the individual, aren't going to fix the economy at large, which we already agreed on.

Also, paying fast food workers 15/hr is a stop gap measure at best. There are already automated food stores. The chains will go that way soon. Then what will those workers do? Maybe they should be retraining now to repair robots so that when the automation happens (as it will) They will still have a job.

Well when we have that many more workers than jobs available, a basic wage is the most likely solution. That or let people starve.

Tariffs imposed on said products are exactly the tool required to fix that imbalance. Corps move overseas to drop labor costs? Raise the taxes on said products to make up the difference and pay for the welfare of the workers those corps left behind.

Of course, that doesn't happen because the workers aren't collectively putting millions of dollars in a politician's pocket, so only one set of interests gets represented.

Tariffs are going to make those goods more expensive for a consumer class that already has too little disposable income.

Yes we desperately need to get money out of politics. Campaign reform is a great place to start.

Edit: wow, I need to go sleep. I'll respond to you gents in the morning.

[Bodakane]

You read the law, it calls for yellow (or other specific colors for different things). Are you going to claim that all yellow colors are accepted? I think we both know that some of those "yellows" you posted would be cited/fined. I happen to know this, because I watched it happen. You are nothing more than a corporatist who's trying to maintain his job security.

Nothing is good enough for you. I wasn't poor enough for you, so you got upset. Everyone else is mean, because they don't give a shit that you let your life go to hell. You are mad that someone is not there to take care of you. Grow a pair, man up, and start taking care of yourself. Stop expecting strangers to give you things, because the world doesn't owe you a fucking dime.

Talk about moving goalposts.

Your bullshit claim was that OSHA, forces businesses to use specific color paint (because for some reason) they want paint manufacturers to be able to charge more for a specific color.

I said that was all bullshit because it is. I said when the regs call for a color it isn't specific, its red, or yellow, etc. Not a specific shade of red or yellow. You claimed that wasn't true because your parents were told, by someone who doesn't work for OSHA, that they must a specific shade of blue for something. I'm telling you, you either made that up or got played, because nowhere in the OSHA regs does it say that.

And yes, as I said before, MOST (never said all) of those yellows will satisfy whatever OSHA says must be yellow (which isn't much).

Again, I'm an actual certified OSHA outreach trainer. You are relating bullshit that you heard secondhand from people who aren't actually part of OSHA.

You've been made to look stupid on this repeatedly and the very best part is that you could have shut me up and humiliated me awhile ago, by simply posting any of the OSHA regs you swear exist. But you didn't, because you can't, because they don't.

So what that means, is you're simply trolling at this point. I know it. You know it. Everyone reading these stupid fucking posts of ours know it.

Back up your shit, or let this die, because you've lost.

[Machismo]

Talk about moving goalposts.

Your bullshit claim was that OSHA, forces businesses to use specific color paint (because for some reason) they want paint manufacturers to be able to charge more for a specific color.

I said that was all bullshit because it is. I said when the regs call for a color it isn't specific, its red, or yellow, etc. Not a specific shade of red or yellow. You claimed that wasn't true because your parents were told, by someone who doesn't work for OSHA, that they must a specific shade of blue for something. I'm telling you, you either made that up or got played, because nowhere in the OSHA regs does it say that.

And yes, as I said before, MOST (never said all) of those yellows will satisfy whatever OSHA says must be yellow (which isn't much).

Again, I'm an actual certified OSHA outreach trainer. You are relating bullshit that you heard secondhand from people who aren't actually part of OSHA.

You've been made to look stupid on this repeatedly and the very best part is that you could have shut me up and humiliated me awhile ago, by simply posting any of the OSHA regs you swear exist. But you didn't, because you can't, because they don't.

So what that means, is you're simply trolling at this point. I know it. You know it. Everyone reading these stupid fucking posts of ours know it.

Back up your shit, or let this die, because you've lost.

I've lost nothing, I've cited an actual instance of it happening. You are a filthy fucking corporatist who wants to keep his job security. Obviously they won't accept just any color, because I fucking saw it happen. You claim they will accept almost any color, but it's simply untrue.

As for trolling, you are the guy who refuses to believe someone was poor enough, because it flies in the face of your entire narrative. This entire thread was an example of you being outraged and an asshat to people, all to push your agenda of getting free things from strangers.

The government authority TOLD someone to get the OSHA color at the store. That actually happened, and you don't want to deal with it, because it goes against what you want to say.

Once again, you are nothing more than a spiteful person, who wants other people to feel sorry for you. Sorry, but nobody feels sorry for you.

[Daerio]

The government authority TOLD someone to get the OSHA color at the store. That actually happened, and you don't want to deal with it, because it goes against what you want to say.

To some people, anecdotal evidence is the only kind that exists.

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Tariffs are going to make those goods more expensive for a consumer class that already has too little disposable income.

Goods will be more expensive, yes - but without tariffs, how do you intend on addressing labor moving overseas? Some other, un-thought-of option? Ignore the problem completely?