Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[primalmatter]

You misunderstand my point profoundly. Read it again and apply yourself.

Many games,movies,and even books to a lesser extent have killed series by trying to appeal to the masses...

In order to do so you sacrifice what made your game a hit to began with. Would darksouls be better if it was a shooter with auto aim like cod? hell look at cod and its declining sales.

Making your game for the masses means making your game cheap, shallow,and forgettable.

[CapybaraSlayer]

I do agree that QoL changes watered down WoW RPG elements, but you could be a casual in Vanilla and TBC and have content to do. The QoL changes were not made just in mind for casuals, but for all players to remove unnesscary annoyanced, but in turn hurting the game.

[Perkunas]

What would an expansion look like that catered to the casuals you describe? I think it would look a lot like WoD. Other time consuming activities would be pared away to let these time-challenged players into raids.

But that didn't work, because most players are in fact bad, not casual. These players couldn't handle even normal mode raids, and they had nothing to fill their play time.

Please continue to emphasize the difference since Blizzard apparently didn't get it. Be warned that if they do get it the game will likely turn to focus on these bads to an extent not yet seen.

The expansion would look just like Burning Crusade prior to the Sunwell patch where they gave gear away. I would drastically decrease leveling speeds and try to remove the focus from rushing to cap for your average player.

[primalmatter]

The expansion would look just like Burning Crusade prior to the Sunwell patch where they gave gear away. I would drastically decrease leveling speeds and try to remove the focus from rushing to cap for your average player.

Question is how do you break players out of that?

The worst of wow's player base are not accustomed to getting everything for free while watching netflicks.

If you add a game in there most of them will be killed off by the shock.

[Perkunas]

Question is how do you break players out of that?

The worst of wow's player base are not accustomed to getting everything for free while watching netflicks.

If you add a game in there most of them will be killed off by the shock.

You mean they are used to handouts and not having to work for shit. By shifting the focus from the destination only to making the journey just as important as it used to be people will not run out of things to do. Leveling should take a very long time, gearing should take a very long time, attuning to raid should be complex, raiding should have multiple tiers that you have to progress through in order to get to the next tier.

[Tomana]

You mean they are used to handouts and not having to work for shit. By shifting the focus from the destination only to making the journey just as important as it used to be people will not run out of things to do. Leveling should take a very long time, gearing should take a very long time, attuning to raid should be complex, raiding should have multiple tiers that you have to progress through in order to get to the next tier.

Wildstar called and it wants to have a chat with you.

[Perkunas]

Wildstar called and it wants to have a chat with you.

Wildstar was a terribly buggy game that was rushed to launch and again, leveling was super fast to cap. Half the adventures didn't function properly, the dungeons were bugged, the timed dungeons, etc.

I played Wildstar at launch. Shit was broken as all hell. I want a game where you need to spend 10 days played to get to cap if you're an expert. Vanilla Warcraft was my ideal for pace of leveling.

If you want to compete on the market you have to have a solid launch. You only get one shot typically and no matter how much you improve your game the masses have moved on and you are screwed.

[primalmatter]

Wildstar called and it wants to have a chat with you.

Play wild star before using it as a example...

Has anyone actually played that game or did everyone just read IGNs review of it?

You might as well compare WoD to CoD...

[Tomana]

I played Wildstar at launch. Shit was broken as all hell. I want a game where you need to spend 10 days played to get to cap if you're an expert. Vanilla Warcraft was my ideal for pace of leveling.

Sigh... And when an expansion is out adding 10 more levels, how much time getting to cap should require? 20 days?
When will people understand that once you have several expansions to go through, you're raising a huuuge entry barrier for new players. It works for one expansion (maybe 2) and stops working afterwards.

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Play wild star before using it as a example...

Has anyone actually played that game or did everyone just read IGNs review of it?

I don't read IGN, so I have no idea what they wrote about it. Bottom line: they wanted to build a "hardcore" MMO and failed miserably.

[Perkunas]

Sigh... And when an expansion is out adding 10 more levels, how much time getting to cap should require? 20 days?
When will people understand that once you have several expansions to go through, you're raising a huuuge entry barrier for new players. It works for one expansion (maybe 2) and stops working afterwards.

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I don't read IGN, so I have no idea what they wrote about it. Bottom line: they wanted to build a "hardcore" MMO and failed miserably.

We have boosts now. There goes that point out the window.

Also, you didn't play Wildstar. You're taking the narrative of morons as to why it failed and not the actual reasons. Wildstar failed because it wasn't ready to launch. They fell into the same situation Star Wars did. Rushing a product to market because you're surrounded by a large vocal group of fanboys who refuse to criticize the game in testing. That and having to meet a deadline. Blizzard doesn't have to deal with that nonsense.

[Queen of Hamsters]

WoW has always been a casual MMORPG.
The biggest problem WoW has, is when the developers fail at creating content for everyone that has staying power.

"But classic offered real challenge!!!"... To bad, inexperienced players of that time that didn't have endless amounts of hours to spend on the game perhaps. Just look at what's required to challenge players, even mediocre/bad ones, today. A game can offer 10 hours of gameplay, but offer mechanical difficulty and requirements testing even the best of players to their limit.

[Tomana]

We have boosts now. There goes that point out the window.

So, people should either go through 20 days of grinding or buy boosts? That's not smart planning by any stretch of imagination.

Also, you didn't play Wildstar. You're taking the narrative of morons as to why it failed and not the actual reasons. Wildstar failed because it wasn't ready to launch. They fell into the same situation Star Wars did. Rushing a product to market because you're surrounded by a large vocal group of fanboys who refuse to criticize the game in testing. That and having to meet a deadline. Blizzard doesn't have to deal with that nonsense.

Star Wars went to a completely opposite direction from Wildstar. The reason SWTOR failed was (as for many MMORPGs) not considering a proper endgame and putting too much work on leveling experience. Oh, and wanting to create a WoW clone to begin with, while the SW universe offered sooo much more possibilities.

[primalmatter]

WoW has always been a casual MMORPG.
The biggest problem WoW has, is when the developers fail at creating content for everyone that has staying power.

Casual compared to the two other games in the market that were well known?

Hell I wouldn't be complaining if wow kept on like vanilla and tbc but wow has become to casual in recent years.

[Candy Cough]

Casualisaztion or however the fuck you spell that word did not kill wow
The Sheer lack of content killed wow, WoD was still as Casual as MoP and Cata, and still hit 10 M subs at the start, but it was just a bad expansion overall.

[Perkunas]

So, people should either go through 20 days of grinding or buy boosts? That's not smart planning by any stretch of imagination.



Star Wars went to a completely opposite direction from Wildstar. The reason SWTOR failed was (as for many MMORPGs) not considering a proper endgame and putting too much work on leveling experience. Oh, and wanting to create a WoW clone to begin with, while the SW universe offered sooo much more possibilities.

They get a free boost to the current expansion with each purchase. So, if you want an alt you can save days leveling with the initial free boost then you can level others or opt to buy more boosted toons.

Star Wars actually had a raid game and a PVP game at cap. The content was shit though because they designed it in a way that combating your interface was just as difficult as the content. The lack of add-ons, macros, complex mechanics all but killed any chance at a raiding community. I actually worked with Darth Hater and I can tell you that there were internal fights over design goals and that the fans of the "easy game" won out. Let's also not mention the puzzle bosses they were bent on including in their operations. They had no real hardcore raiders on their design team beyond Damion Schubert so they had no idea what they were doing at all. Warcraft took Tigole and Furor from EQ so they had a leg up on the competition.

[Tomana]

They get a free boost to the current expansion with each purchase. So, if you want an alt you can save days leveling with the initial free boost then you can level others or opt to buy more boosted toons.

And you think it won't turn away new players? Current leveling system is not perfect, but what you're suggesting is far worse.

Star Wars actually had a raid game and a PVP game at cap. The content was shit though because they designed it in a way that combating your interface was just as difficult as the content.

Precisely. I never said SWTOR didn't have an end-game, I said it was not proper.

The lack of add-ons, macros, complex mechanics all but killed any chance at a raiding community. I actually worked with Darth Hater and I can tell you that there were internal fights over design goals and that the fans of the "easy game" won out.

Because it would draw more customers, I assume?

Warcraft took Tigole and Furor from EQ so they had a leg up on the competition.

Those two guys are probably fully responsible of the huge emphasis WoW puts on raids. Which is not a good thing if you ask me.

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Casual compared to the two other games in the market that were well known?

Casual compared to its competition. That always was WoW's approach. The thing is, now you have to draw people from MOBAs and FPS, so what was considered "casual" back then is "wtf" right now.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Casual compared to the two other games in the market that were well known?

Hell I wouldn't be complaining if wow kept on like vanilla and tbc but wow has become to casual in recent years.

As someone that's very hardcore, more than most actually, when it comes to time spent on WoW and activities sought out, the game caters just fine to me when the developers do a good job at the quality and quantity of content released.

Not enough content = the problem, and Classic sure as hell doesn't provide a solution to that...with it being 11 year old stagnated content with mechanics of that time, that is. Time consuming tasks being a "challenge" might pass among people that don't have higher standards. I've never felt challenged by grinds, in any game.

Blaming casuals is retarded when WoW as an mmorpg was never anything BUT casual and accessible by standards of the time before WoW became the giant SETTING the standards.

[primalmatter]

As someone that's very hardcore, more than most actually, when it comes to time spent on WoW and activities sought out, the game caters just fine to me when the developers do a good job at the quality and quantity of content released.

Not enough content = the problem, and Classic sure as hell doesn't provide a solution to that...with it being 11 year old stagnated content with mechanics of that time, that is. Time consuming tasks being a "challenge" might pass among people that don't have higher standards. I've never felt challenged by grinds, in any game.

Blaming casuals is retarded when WoW as an mmorpg was never anything BUT casual and accessible by standards of the time before WoW became the giant SETTING the standards.

Yet it has degraded since then..

I call it primalmatter's greater entropy theory.

The more you cater to casuals the closer you get to facebook.

[Perkunas]

And you think it won't turn away new players? Current leveling system is not perfect, but what you're suggesting is far worse.

I don't see how this is an issue when you've made leveling itself fun and challenging like it used to be. I got more joy from my Hypnotic Dagger on my Warlock back in Vanilla than any piece of Mythic loot I picked up this expansion. You've given people the ability to bypass the pre-expansion grind but haven't removed it. Leveling to cap from a fresh toon should take like 10 days played. You'll actually do te dungeons, complete the stories in the zones, get viable upgrades and utilize them...

Precisely. I never said SWTOR didn't have an end-game, I said it was not proper.

I wish they would have cloned Vanilla WoW. Instead they cherry picked things like the spells, talents, etc and ignored the natural progression systems.

Because it would draw more customers, I assume?

Looks like that worked. They had a whole 2 million subs and that dropped dramatically with each patch

Those two guys are probably fully responsible of the huge emphasis WoW puts on raids. Which is not a good thing if you ask me.

It wasn't though. I knew tons of people who never raided in Vanilla and fucking loved it. The game wasn't only about capped content. The journey was just as important as the destination. The world was big and it took a long time to even get anywhere and the game was better for it. These days people bitch if they have to fly for a couple minutes on a flightpath or ride somewhere for 3 minutes on a ground mount.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

I don't see how this is an issue when you've made leveling itself fun and challenging like it used to be. I got more joy from my Hypnotic Dagger on my Warlock back in Vanilla than any piece of Mythic loot I picked up this expansion. You've given people the ability to bypass the pre-expansion grind but haven't removed it. Leveling to cap from a fresh toon should take like 10 days played. You'll actually do te dungeons, complete the stories in the zones, get viable upgrades and utilize them...


I wish they would have cloned Vanilla WoW. Instead they cherry picked things like the spells, talents, etc and ignored the natural progression systems.

Looks like that worked. They had a whole 2 million subs and that dropped dramatically with each patch


It wasn't though. I knew tons of people who never raided in Vanilla and fucking loved it. The game wasn't only about capped content. The journey was just as important as the destination. The world was big and it took a long time to even get anywhere and the game was better for it. These days people bitch if they have to fly for a couple minutes on a flightpath or ride somewhere for 3 minutes on a ground mount.

Most players never made it to make level in Vanilla and they just had more new players coming in the leaving.