Casualization is the biggest problem wow: True or false

[Charge me Doctor]

Treasures and rare hunting were already present in MOP. Improved daily questing? I'd take the original MOP dailies over apexis any day, thank you, at least to got meaningful gear out of it instead of pets and mounts costing obscene amounts. Garrisons were certainly a good idea, but they forgot to add actual open world content to it.

As for "daily CM rewards", it's just not something meant for casual players.

Why not both tho? Why pick between MoP or WoD versions, when you could have both? Or even something better?

[pill8w]

None sense they have before with tbc. The problem is they got lead into that trap that everyone needs to see all that content. That was the mistake they made all those years ago.

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They are drawing up ideas I am sure nothing is being made yet I am sure. Early alpha showed that isn't the case.

I also don't get people who use old wow as some kind of shield for why making it more casual is better. That argument doesn't have anything resembling reason to back it up.

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Yes the casual horde...

Tell me where are your casuals now? Only raid realms stand after the expac designed for casual players. Gone is the vast majority. You are alone now child.

THe entire "casual" debate is a red herring. What you may claim is "hardcore raider action" I claim is a complete waste of time. Once you beat a raid encounter on mythic, then what reason do you have to keep raiding? Gear that will become obsolete with the next raid? Essentially the only reason to ever continue raiding a place that you have already cleared is to make the next content patch easier to step in. Every reward you get in this game becomes obsolete, even the reputations you spent countless hours grinding. "Casuals" are just smart enough to see past the "power creep" or what I like to call "Planned Obsolescence Progression model". Where every reward you get for playing diminishes into vendor trash over time. The game is all about "Carrot on a stick" but the carrot is made of wax and will always be regularly replaced with a slightly larger and more colorful carrot on that exact same stick. Countless hours spent toward fleeting rewards.... you may as well be going to the bar and trying to get laid. At least you would have a story to tell that your friends may care about hearing. Nobody cares how many times you fully geared up and then had that gear crapped on immediately with a new content patch. Nobody cares about how much time you spent playing and how insignificant that is because you didnt play "Loot Slot Machines" in the current content patch enough to be relevant anymore. The game is a full time job and the pay is constantly inflated so that it's only worth a shit the moment you receive it

[Tomana]

Why not both tho? Why pick between MoP or WoD versions, when you could have both? Or even something better?

Oh, I agree. But here, I'm just comparing the non-raid content we got in MOP vs what we got in WOD, not what we could get hypothetically.

[Charge me Doctor]

THe entire "casual" debate is a red herring. What you may claim is "hardcore raider action" I claim is a complete waste of time. Once you beat a raid encounter on mythic, then what reason do you have to keep raiding? Gear that will become obsolete with the next raid? Essentially the only reason to ever continue raiding a place that you have already cleared is to make the next content patch easier to step in. Every reward you get in this game becomes obsolete, even the reputations you spent countless hours grinding. "Casuals" are just smart enough to see past the "power creep" or what I like to call "Planned Obsolescence Progression model". Where every reward you get for playing diminishes into vendor trash over time. The game is all about "Carrot on a stick" but the carrot is made of wax and will always be regularly replaced with a slightly larger and more colorful carrot on that exact same stick. Countless hours spent toward fleeting rewards.... you may as well be going to the bar and trying to get laid. At least you would have a story to tell that your friends may care about hearing. Nobody cares how many times you fully geared up and then had that gear crapped on immediately with a new content patch. Nobody cares about how much time you spent playing and how insignificant that is because you didnt play "Loot Slot Machines" in the current content patch enough to be relevant anymore. The game is a full time job and the pay is constantly inflated so that it's only worth a shit the moment you receive it

Except vanity stuff like achievements, titles, pets, mounts, etc. They don't get obsolete, they only get better with time.
And i, kinda, agree with you, tho i don't see your point.

I really enjoy that WoW moves towards D3 direction, so you can pick it up and have fun, instead of "you have to spend a month farming crap until you have fun"

[primalmatter]

Treasures and rare hunting were already present in MOP. Improved daily questing? I'd take the original MOP dailies over apexis any day, thank you, at least to got meaningful gear out of it instead of pets and mounts costing obscene amounts. Garrisons were certainly a good idea, but they forgot to add actual open world content to it.

As for "daily CM rewards", it's just not something meant for casual players.

Apexis gear was and is extremely good. I used it when I started raiding highmaul and I used it on alts as baneful tokens just how good does it need to be? Daily cms where you could take as long as you needed to complete them.

[Kyriani]

It was what casuals asked for. They wanted that kind of content for almost a decade you can hardly blame blizzard for delivering it to them.

By all means point out where the "casuals" asked for empty, boring, "fill a bar - to hell with trying to make a story with quests", content.

Blizzard could have made better content. They certainly did so in the past. Making a bunch of areas and telling players "go to this area today and kill/click stuff till the bar is full" is something no one asked for. Making a bunch of reps with no enticing rewards and no way to earn rep except by tediously killing thousands of mobs is something no one asked for.

The reason the content was as failtastic as it was isn't because it's what casuals asked for. I personally believe it's because Blizzard struggled with trying to create non-raid content that was rewarding but wouldn't feel "mandatory" for raiders. But that's where the failure lies. It's not possible to do that IMO. If content is going to be engaging it needs to be tied to story. If content is going to be rewarding it has to be competitive with other avenues of character progression. That means there has to be stuff out there that raiders are going to want to.

The problem is trying to segregate "casuals" and "raiders". There needs to be, simply put, CONTENT. Engaging, challenging, and yes rewarding, CONTENT. Failure to provide that outside of raids is a failure to do right by the game and the players IMO.

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Apexis gear was and is extremely good. I used it when I started raiding highmaul and I used it on alts as baneful tokens just how good does it need to be? Daily cms where you could take as long as you needed to complete them.

Your definition of "extremely good" and mine differ dramatically. ILVL isn't the only thing that determines the value of gear. Apexis gear was sorely lacking and tied to rng as to how "good" it could be.

[purebalance]

People did leave. En masse. Now unfortunately or fortunately the game.is also a business and the developers must take feedback intonwhy they left into account.

Nobody left due to things being complex. I'll give you 1% of the sub loss in cata at best.

[Charge me Doctor]

Your definition of "extremely good" and mine differ dramatically.

Even PvP gear was better than apexis gear, and ashran was way easier and more enjoyable than TJ

[primalmatter]

By all means point out where the "casuals" asked for empty, boring, "fill a bar - to hell with trying to make a story with quests", content.

Blizzard could have made better content. They certainly did so in the past. Making a bunch of areas and telling players "go to this area today and kill/click stuff till the bar is full" is something no one asked for. Making a bunch of reps with no enticing rewards and no way to earn rep except by tediously killing thousands of mobs is something no one asked for.

The reason the content was as failtastic as it was isn't because it's what casuals asked for. I personally believe it's because Blizzard struggled with trying to create non-raid content that was rewarding but wouldn't feel "mandatory" for raiders. But that's where the failure lies. It's not possible to do that IMO. If content is going to be engaging it needs to be tied to story. If content is going to be rewarding it has to be competitive with other avenues of character progression. That means there has to be stuff out there that raiders are going to want to.

The problem is trying to segregate "casuals" and "raiders". There needs to be, simply put, CONTENT. Engaging, challenging, and yes rewarding, CONTENT. Failure to provide that outside of raids is a failure to do right by the game and the players IMO.

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Your definition of "extremely good" and mine differ dramatically.

Tons of people asked for that content metric fuck tons. Hell have you been on the wow farms since ever?

They wanted powerful rewards for easy content and they got it. They didn't want to form groups, they didn't want to wipe, and they didn't want to grind for a long time and so wod was born.

Hell with the new loot model they are already stoked for being able to farm boars forever.

The casual player is a snake eating its own tail always has been always will.

Well I was in a world 30 guild and I saw the rewards as extremely good. Only people I knew who thought apexis was shit for the first two weeks of raiding were those doing split runs. Maybe you are just to hard core for me.

[Charge me Doctor]

Nobody left due to things being complex. I'll give you 1% of the sub loss in cata at best.

WoW was bleeding subs in start of early cata due to hard dungeons, it was far more than just 1% of sub loss. And no, people didn't exactly "leave" because of things being complex, they just avoided that, then they understand that there are nothing left to do except of complex things and then unsub

[Tomana]

The reason the content was as failtastic as it was isn't because it's what casuals asked for. I personally believe it's because Blizzard struggled with trying to create non-raid content that was rewarding but wouldn't feel "mandatory" for raiders. But that's where the failure lies. It's not possible to do that IMO. If content is going to be engaging it needs to be tied to story. If content is going to be rewarding it has to be competitive with other avenues of character progression. That means there has to be stuff out there that raiders are going to want to.

Totally. Which once again proves that WoW is run by raiders for raiders. Because, if gear even remotely approaching raid quality was added to the game then - OMG! Raiders will whine! National Crisis @Blizzard HQ!

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Apexis gear was and is extremely good. I used it when I started raiding highmaul and I used it on alts as baneful tokens just how good does it need to be? Daily cms where you could take as long as you needed to complete them.

Apexis gear before Tanaan was ridiculously expensive and required farming for a couple of weeks to get a craptastic piece. That does not qualify as "extremely good" by any stretch of imagination.

[primalmatter]

Totally. Which once again proves that WoW is run by raiders for raiders. Because, if gear even remotely approaching raid quality was added to the game then - OMG! Raiders will whine! National Crisis @Blizzard HQ!

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Apexis gear before Tanaan was ridiculously expensive and required farming for a couple of weeks to get a craptastic piece. That does not qualify as "extremely good" by any stretch of imagination.

Took me a couple days to get a piece and ended up using two pieces for the first week of raids. Experience varies?

[Kyriani]

Tons of people asked for that content metric fuck tons. Hell have you been on the wow farms since ever?

They wanted powerful rewards for easy content and they got it. They didn't want to form groups, they didn't want to wipe, and they didn't want to grind for a long time and so wod was born.

Hell with the new loot model they are already stoked for being able to farm boars forever.

The casual player is a snake eating its own tail always has been always will.

Well I was in a world 30 guild and I saw the rewards as extremely good. Only people I knew who thought apexis was shit for the first two weeks of raiding were those doing split runs. Maybe you are just to hard core for me.

No sorry I don't buy into that narrative. I think what you're really saying is "casuals want raid gear without doing raids and anything that isn't a raid is easy so they don't deserve it", which I personally think is bullshit.

There can be challenging/rewarding non-raid content for solo players and small groups. The rewards CAN be competitive with raid gear but should take more time to acquire IMO. The trick is to get that ridiculous notion that raid content is the only challenging content and the only content that should give substantial character progression OUT of your head and realize it's simply doesn't have to be true. Legion is Blizzard's opportunity to prove that. We'll see if they succeed.

[pill8w]

Except vanity stuff like achievements, titles, pets, mounts, etc. They don't get obsolete, they only get better with time.
And i, kinda, agree with you, tho i don't see your point.

I really enjoy that WoW moves towards D3 direction, so you can pick it up and have fun, instead of "you have to spend a month farming crap until you have fun"

Well the thread is trying to identify "the problem" with WoW. So I assume they are trying to label design choices that the devs have made over time to pander to a specific crowd as "the problem". It's already pretty damned subjective what constitutes a problem, so I just posted why I quit playing. The game is fun to play but it's a constant struggle to stay relevant. This is why I enjoy it so much more when an expansion is released and everything you do and get is relevant. My only point was that it is neither Casual nor Hardcore that is a problem. For me it is the progression model in general. Both casual and hardcore gamers suffer from the same BS 'when did you loot this? ok well now its garbage, go here and loot stuff here instead'. The diablo model is great because its long term, they do still have power creep in diablo but they at least retroactively buff the sets that you already have. We shall see how they execute it in WoW's ilvl creep design, the legendary effects in Diablo are "build defining", they are as much a part of your build as the spells you carry. Honestly theres just no way to have a subscription driven MMO without power creep, it has to be something you look for in a game otherwise it is "a problem" for those players. They can't please everyone though which is probably the ultimate lesson to be learned from reading through this thread. The game is good at what it does but not everyone will like what it does. I personally feel like the valor upgrade system was a good model to keep your gear from becomming irrelevant but they felt like it left no reason to actually continually raid new content (and theyre right, once you beat a raid you are just battling RNGesus to get the pieces you need).

When MoP released I only started playing WoW again for its rich and complex PvP gameplay. It will likely be the same route I go again with Legion. Every time I get involved with raiding I get completely turned off by the progression model. Hopefully the legendary D3 style items wont get pooped on every content patch. I am going to be very disappointed if that gear is only ever useful at one point during the xpansion

[judgementofantonidas]

Isn't it the reason why it's still alive in a sense? WoD had almost 0 content for casuals and PvPrs so that hit them hard.

all a pvper needs is an opponent, or in most cases helpless prey, and a place to pew pew pew jump jump jump. pvpery is very self sufficient.

[primalmatter]

No sorry I don't buy into that narrative. I think what you're really saying is "casuals want raid gear without doing raids and anything that isn't a raid is easy so they don't deserve it", which I personally think is bullshit.

There can be challenging/rewarding non-raid content for solo players and small groups. The rewards CAN be competitive with raid gear but should take more time to acquire IMO. The trick is to get that ridiculous notion that raid content is the only challenging content and the only content that should give substantial character progression OUT of your head and realize it's simply doesn't have to be true. Legion is Blizzard's opportunity to prove that. We'll see if they succeed.

It can be done pf course I see mythic + as the ideal format for that.

The problem with solo content is it has to really be tuned by class to be challenging and in the case of melee,caster,tank,and healer specs belonging to the same class each really needs its own content. It is just to cumbersome to develop outside of small tid bits like the warlock class quest for green fire.

What I am seeing in legion is comparable gear coming from everything and that seems like a mistake to me.

[purebalance]

WoW was bleeding subs in start of early cata due to hard dungeons, it was far more than just 1% of sub loss. And no, people didn't exactly "leave" because of things being complex, they just avoided that, then they understand that there are nothing left to do except of complex things and then unsub

Had nothing to do with dungeons, but keep spouting that. Primary sub loss was actually due to 10 and 20 man integration.

[Tomana]

Took me a couple days to get a piece and ended up using two pieces for the first week of raids. Experience varies?

You used to get maybe 1000+ crystals every day, with the lowest (630, therefore useless) gear requiring 4,000. Everything higher-tiered required a lot more farming.

[primalmatter]

You used to get maybe 1000+ crystals every day, with the lowest (630, therefore useless) gear requiring 4,000. Everything higher-tiered required a lot more farming.

That it did we blanketed areas with five man teams for world drops and everyone got a lot while we chatted and watched tv.

You could farm far more then a 1000

[Nefroz]

Not directly, its blizzards thing of listening to elitist whiners, and reimplementing asanine grinds or stupid shit like gating flying behind achis locked till final patches. This causes players like me who grew up with wow and now have families and jobs to not wanna sink all my time into the game.