Upcoming talent change gutting

[Skarzog]

I've concluded argueing this is pointless, some people have no grasp on game design or the idea of Talent System being a CHOICE that is supposed to be, indeed, restrictive - Pick THIS out of these, you can't have it all.

Spoiled brats.

First you can't have it all. You have to chose which talents you use at any given moment. The changes also don't make talents restrictive, unless you consider hearthing to be "restrictive". If that is their goal, then its a failed design because if anyone truly wants to change their talents; the restriction of going to a safe zone is not enough a hurdle to make it a difficult decision.

Lets take this change for what it is. Its a nuisance. If you need to change your talents you will. The only difference is you will have to hearth and be summoned to your previous location. That is it.

If they had placed a cooldown on changing talents or a serious penalty like tens of thousands of gold, then perhaps it would have been "restrictive".

[clevin]

I've concluded argueing this is pointless, some people have no grasp on game design or the idea of Talent System being a CHOICE that is supposed to be, indeed, restrictive - Pick THIS out of these, you can't have it all.

Spoiled brats.

First, grow up.

Second, we've had the current system in place for 4 years. There's no real point in changing it now aside from the fact that someone got a bee up their ass about this. It's useless make-work that doesn't really do what you say because we CAN change the talents. If we were locked in for, say, a week, that would really be restrictive, this is just annoying and petty. At the most I have to live with subpar talents or hearth to a city.

[Kurve1776]

Ok, apparently no one read what I was responding to so...thanks for that.

The issues you all are bringing up are different than claiming "There's absolutely NO other way to change talents than hearth to Dalaran, swap, and get ported back!". I was just correcting something that was factually wrong. They stated that there are items to change your talents with. Debate amongst yourselves about the legitimacy and proper costs of such a thing...

I get what you are saying and the context of what I quoted, I simply added that we would be better off without the entire "new" system that adds unnecessary steps to the process that was designed around players individually managing their own setups v. having to stop the whole group to change even 1 talent for 1 person (depending on group size ofc.)

Like I understand you were saying that there isn't just one way to change, I just feel that both ways are unnecessary

[Gersemi]

Wait a second... they remove the need for tomes to switch talents, only to add another tome needed to switch talents? That doesn't make sense. One step forward, two steps back.

[bewbew]

there's no choice when it's literally single target vs aoe talents.

nobody wants to be the retard using aoe talents on a ST boss.

You aren't SUPPOSED to be the best at every fight. That is the point.

As someone else already said, if you are supposed to be at your finest for every fight, then there's no point gating these Abilities behind Talents.

The point of Talents is RESTRICTION.

Games are based on barriers and restrictions, and forcing you to deal with the present challenges with the tools you have in hand, flawed as they may be.

[Adramalech]

Stop making people pick between single target and AoE in the same row and the vast majority of the issue goes away.

In the end, I feel like this is the biggest issue. If a talent row offered a choice between say... a talent that improves your ability to quickly clear a low health AoE pack and one best suited for longer lived packs, a change wouldn't need to happen as often, making the system actually fine. But when the choice is something like "take this or you'll suck at AoE/ST", mutually exclusive... you can bet there's gonna be frequent switching, and this system takes a dump on that concept.

I feel like this system will be a thorn on a lot of people's sides unless they suddenly come out with massive talent changes to fit their system... which I sadly do not see happening.

[bewbew]

First, grow up.

Second, we've had the current system in place for 4 years. There's no real point in changing it now aside from the fact that someone got a bee up their ass about this. It's useless make-work that doesn't really do what you say because we CAN change the talents. If we were locked in for, say, a week, that would really be restrictive, this is just annoying and petty. At the most I have to live with subpar talents or hearth to a city.

You grow up. Wanting everything, at once, is the definition of being a spoiled brat.

It was a bad decision 4 years ago.

Good thing they finally realized.

And yes, this is restrictive. A week would be even better.

[Kurve1776]

Wait a second... they remove the need for tomes to switch talents, only to add another tome needed to switch talents? That doesn't make sense. One step forward, two steps back.

Yep, like it wouldn't be as bad if they didn't add in the fact that the materials needed for this will be "based on groups" meaning it won't be very easy for a single person to farm out a lot of these things if I'm understanding that right, shitting all over the whole "personal management" thing the talents are designed around.

- - - Updated - - -

You aren't SUPPOSED to be the best at every fight. That is the point.

As someone else already said, if you are supposed to be at your finest for every fight, then there's no point gating these Abilities behind Talents.

The point of Talents is RESTRICTION.

Games are based on barriers and restrictions, and forcing you to deal with the present challenges with the tools you have in hand, flawed as they may be.

You are SUPPOSED to switch talents based on the situation you're presented with. Sacrifice AoE for ST in this fight, ST for AoE in this fight, a mix of both in this fight, etc.

The point of talents in WoW is CHOICE. you CHOOSE which talent to use when for certain situations.

[clevin]

Wait a second... they remove the need for tomes to switch talents, only to add another tome needed to switch talents? That doesn't make sense. One step forward, two steps back.

Precisely. Instead of individual reagents, there's a thing that people can put down that, it seems, will create an aura that lets people change talents. That's kind of what annoys me about this - they're spending time on this but it doesn't really have much of a difference, it's just a bit annoying.

[bewbew]

You are SUPPOSED to switch talents based on the situation you're presented with. Sacrifice AoE for ST in this fight, ST for AoE in this fight, a mix of both in this fight, etc.

The point of talents in WoW is CHOICE. you CHOOSE which talent to use when for certain situations.

If you can always change for the best possible choice in every fight, there is no choice.

There is an UI hassle.

[clevin]

You grow up. Wanting everything, at once, is the definition of being a spoiled brat.

It was a bad decision 4 years ago.

Good thing they finally realized.

And yes, this is restrictive. A week would be even better.

No, it's not restrictive. All I need is the inscription item vs the tome. WTF?

And bullshit about it being a bad decision 4 years ago. Like you were against it. Bull. SHIT.

- - - Updated - - -

If you can always change for the best possible choice in every fight, there is no choice.

There is an UI hassle.

That was the trade off for having fewer talents - being able to customize them at will without respeccing entirely.

[lightofdawn]

no matter what they do theyll end up pissing off at least 20 people. i support the minor changes like this...

edit: oh lord i hadnt read the whole thing before now. i mean it could be cool? but at the same time im not over hyped for this one change. ill support it until i can see if it hinders me

[bewbew]

No, it's not restrictive. All I need is the inscription item vs the tome. WTF?

And bullshit about it being a bad decision 4 years ago. Like you were against it. Bull. SHIT.

The price is restrictive - it's tailored "for raids". The inconvenience, while still lenient, is better than no restriction. A cooldown would have been even better.

I was always against it. I find it an abomination, as a long time gamer, table-top RPG player and being friends with many, many people in the gaming industry that share with me their passion and knowledge about game design.

[Kurve1776]

If you can always change for the best possible choice in every fight, there is no choice.

There is an UI hassle.

I don't disagree that there is little to no choice, however the way the current talent system is designed is based off of switching often on a personal level to best augment your character to provide the best output for a given situation. not necessarily the highest output for your character, but molding your talents to best suit the group's overall needs

If talents were like the older systems, then these two restrictions would be perfectly fine, but they aren't they're based on switching around as needed on the fly. Adding in an additional step that either forces you to hearth to town or drop an item (which sounds like it won't be easy/cheap to make), both of which slow the entire group in some way, so that one person can change one talent is bad design.

[Dhrizzle]

No, I'm asking whether this change is worth it. They didn't have to mess with how we spec swap and talent swap AT ALL. Leave the Tome cost for talent swapping. Leave spec swapping as is. If you'd thought for a minute that meaning was obvious but like most here, you just want to try to appear smart. You failed at that this time.

AS for 'a bigger sense of importance' - why? It's still not really hard, it's just inconvenient and annoying. These changes do nothing but waste time and annoy people.

I imagine for most players it will make talent choice feel more important. I don't think your average player out doing world quests whilst queuing for heroics/LFR/battlegrounds or whatever will be skipping back to town or shelling out for a thing every time a change of talents might be desirable. Those players are making a choice to focus their character in a meaningful way as it will have positives and negatives attached. At this level of play talent changes shouldn't be necessary for completing content, so it will have an effect on gameplay without overly hampering the player.

People playing at a higher level, hard-mode raiders for example, will be banding together and can share the cost among the members so, other than someone having to click and put down an item, it shouldn't affect the game to a significant degree.

The group with the highest chance of being negatively affected is Mythic dungeoneers. A cost that is insignificant to a 20 man group could be much more punishing to a 5 man team.

[bewbew]

I don't disagree that there is little to no choice, however the way the current talent system is designed is based off of switching often on a personal level to best augment your character to provide the best output for a given situation. not necessarily the highest output for your character, but molding your talents to best suit the group's overall needs

If talents were like the older systems, then these two restrictions would be perfectly fine, but they aren't they're based on switching around as needed on the fly. Adding in an additional step that either forces you to hearth to town or drop an item (which sounds like it won't be easy/cheap to make), both of which slow the entire group in some way, so that one person can change one talent is bad design.

I don't know why you keep insisting that the old system was any different.

The old system COULD also be tailored to switch talents around for every fight or taking into consideration your specific group needs - I specifically remember our Naxx 40 runs with people hearting to change spec on occasion (Specially if one of our Blessing of Kings paladins were missing). But you know what? It was such a hassle that most people simply didn't BOTHER, which is precisely the point.

It's inconvenient enough that people just opt into sticking with their spec, making-do with their restricted options. That is good design.

Personally, I find a cooldown a much more elegant solution, but WoW is still a very casual-friendly game.

[Florena]

It's not a big deal for me but the choice seems like too little too late if they want spec identity to matter. Just as it's too late to roll back to the days when changing specs was more costly. All this is going to do in practice is make squires more useful in making the books for people to pop out in raids or dungeons so they can swap talents on a per fight basis. It's just a slightly less convenient version of what we have now with vendor tomes used to swap out talents outside of combat. It just doesn't seem to serve a real purpose to me except for throwing a bone to inscription. People will just stockpile these new books the same way we do the tomes now.

[HarpuiaBlade]

More like one of the best ideas Blizzard has had in a long time. Puts at least a bit of RPG back in this MMORPG.

This exactly. OP posting with a meme reaction is just fueling slanted rage

[Adramalech]

So changing talents without having the need to go back to a town is a luxury now, is that what this has become? Either you have the resources or help to get these new tomes, or tough luck. We're still talking about switching talents, a core function of every class, right?

[threads]

You aren't SUPPOSED to be the best at every fight. That is the point.

As someone else already said, if you are supposed to be at your finest for every fight, then there's no point gating these Abilities behind Talents.

The point of Talents is RESTRICTION.

Games are based on barriers and restrictions, and forcing you to deal with the present challenges with the tools you have in hand, flawed as they may be.

lol what a dumb way of thinking.

the point of talents is versatility. not playing subpar and shitty.