[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[Supliftz]

RJW isn't a good talent.

Generally raiding follows this

Rem on CD
Use uplifting trance procs as much as possible

Cast EF if enough people have taken to damage to justify casting it. Use vivify/effuse to double proc mastery depending on your mana. Fill gcds in between with effuse/vivify/soothing/fistweaving.

[Myta]

The class needs utility that's useful in a raid setting. So something like hymn of hope or rallying would be good enough.

I suggested a Jug of 1,000 Cups that was literally like a weaker tranq but either reduced mana cost, increased healing by 10%, increased max hp, or innumerable other effects it could have to offset the low healing but brought great raid utility. This was shot down, now you're advocating for a CD that I suggested Monks have months ago and was ridiculed for. My opinions have been pretty unpopular but history has shown them to be quite accurate.

As others have said, yea LC is a LoH, the hot buff is irrelevant outside of one tick as Peachpies pointed out in every relevant encounter the bubble is gone almost instantly, so it's a 3min CD that applies EnV+ReM instantly, cool. It's kind of like a spicier better LoH but is it really a tank CD? I don't think so. I get the effect is powerful but it means the tank already has to be dying and in an environment where tanks <80% don't get global'd. If whenever we return to bouncy health bar badness, then not even 3min free EnV will save LC. The environment has to be healthy for it to be good, and at this point I see Blizzard balancing MW around what they want the healing model to be like, not what it will actually be like going into Mythics or the next tier. I think I have a right to be extremely skeptical of bandaid fixes no matter how good they appear.

[Supliftz]

As others have said, yea LC is a LoH, the hot buff is irrelevant outside of one tick as Peachpies pointed out in every relevant encounter the bubble is gone almost instantly, so it's a 3min CD that applies EnV+ReM instantly, cool. It's kind of like a spicier better LoH but is it really a tank CD? I don't think so. I get the effect is powerful but it means the tank already has to be dying and in an environment where tanks <80% don't get global'd. If whenever we return to bouncy health bar badness, then not even 3min free EnV will save LC. The environment has to be healthy for it to be good, and at this point I see Blizzard balancing MW around what they want the healing model to be like, not what it will actually be like going into Mythics or the next tier. I think I have a right to be extremely skeptical of bandaid fixes no matter how good they appear.

You need to accept we live in a world of nerfed tank cds (outside of ironbark ofc), and in that world life cocoon is extremely relevant. Even in the very worst case (i.e life cocoon is 1 shot), it is still an extremely solid tank cd. You also need to accept that legion enveloping is so strong that monks would be able to solo heal tank damage if we weren't limited by mana. So applying an Enveloping for free on top of 2 mastery procs is basically saying "hey the tank isn't going to die for 6 seconds unless he's literally 1 shot".

Complaining about life cocoon now is completely pointless. The spell has been fixed. The class has far more pressing matters such as EF range, TFT EF, utility, and enveloping mist in a raid setting.

[Myta]

You need to accept we live in a world of nerfed tank cds (outside of ironbark ofc), and in that world life cocoon is extremely relevant. You also need to accept that legion enveloping is so strong that monks would be able to solo heal tank damage if we weren't limited by mana. So applying an Enveloping for free on top of 2 mastery procs is basically saying "hey the tank isn't going to die for 6 seconds unless he's literally 1 shot".

Complaining about life cocoon now is completely pointless. The spell has been fixed. The class has far more pressing matters such as EF range, TFT EF, utility, and enveloping mist in a raid setting.

Ironbark is a WoD CD, and in a lot of ways so is Guardian Spirit. If we return to the healing model we've had since end of TBC I could see RestoDruid and HPriest being the strongest. (Also DH tanks now have return of the passive continue button). You're saying constantly, "Legion is different!" but I've been playing since the launch of this game and I have heard this every expansion "Healing is different!" etc. We have no way of knowing how it will actually be until we are actually progressing through Mythics in Legion, so I think I take things Blizz claims about this glorious new healing model with a dump truck full of salt, and I wouldn't hold it against anyone else to do the same. Until it actually changes I'll remain skeptical that it'll just revert back to the way it's been for a decade.

[Supliftz]

Ironbark is a WoD CD, and in a lot of ways so is Guardian Spirit. If we return to the healing model we've had since end of TBC I could see RestoDruid and HPriest being the strongest. (Also DH tanks now have return of the passive continue button). You're saying constantly, "Legion is different!" but I've been playing since the launch of this game and I have heard this every expansion "Healing is different!" etc. We have no way of knowing how it will actually be until we are actually progressing through Mythics in Legion, so I think I take things Blizz claims about this glorious new healing model with a dump truck full of salt, and I wouldn't hold it against anyone else to do the same. Until it actually changes I'll remain skeptical that it'll just revert back to the way it's been for a decade.

And like I keep saying to you. Even if Life Cocoon is instantly absorbed, you just applied the best non cd based ST heal in the game, and one of the best long duration hots in the game. The tank isn't going to die for the duration of enveloping mist. That's the worst case scenario. In the best case scenario life cocoon survives for 3-4 seconds, instantly tops the tank and leaves you with a free renewing mist/enveloping mist left over which you can follow up with vivify/effuse/enm depending on the tank damage/raid damage. In that scenario life cocoon massively outperforms tank cds like guardian spirit, pain sup, and especially hand of sacrifice, and in some scenarios it outpaces ironbark.

I personally don't believe the healing model will be as they claim, but I can also believe that life cocoon is strong because enveloping mist is an extremely overpowered (numerically) spell.

[Myta]

And like I keep saying to you. Even if Life Cocoon is instantly absorbed, you just applied the best non cd based ST heal in the game, and one of the best long duration hots in the game. The tank isn't going to die for the duration of enveloping mist. That's the worst case scenario. In the best case scenario life cocoon survives for 3-4 seconds, instantly tops the tank and leaves you with a free renewing mist/enveloping mist left over which you can follow up with vivify/effuse/enm depending on the tank damage/raid damage. In that scenario life cocoon massively outperforms tank cds like guardian spirit, pain sup, and especially hand of sacrifice, and in some scenarios it outpaces ironbark.

I personally don't believe the healing model will be as they claim, but I can also believe that life cocoon is strong because enveloping mist is an extremely overpowered (numerically) spell.

There's another problem, if hot refresh legendary goes life, that is going to seriously impact that talent's effectiveness as you can preemptively EnV the tank before every switch.

Anyways, this is pretty much run it's course, we don't know how Legion is going to breakdown, and it would be great to see the healing model change for once in which case this change is a lot better than I expect it to be.

[Peachpies]

It is simply not true that a tank will not die if you have enveloping mist on them. And again, if enveloping and renewing mist are the reason the tank isn't dying than life cocoon itself is irrelevant. The absorb from life cocoon itself is not very significant compared to the amount of damage that can be taken over a short period of time.

[xdmemes]

LC being "strong" is completely contingent on an artifact bonus and EM being too powerful (reminder: we just started tuning). Otherwise it's still a trash tier excuse for a cooldown.

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It is simply not true that a tank will not die if you have enveloping mist on them. And again, if enveloping and renewing mist are the reason the tank isn't dying than life cocoon itself is irrelevant. The absorb from life cocoon itself is not very significant compared to the amount of damage that can be taken over a short period of time.

Also this. Mitigating or preventing damage is always better than trying to outheal it.

[Coronach]

In a world without PW:S, Life Cocoon's importance is increased for blocking specific mechanics like Doom Lords on Mythic Manno or Slam on Hans and Frans. While MW have major issues on beta, I agree with Suplift that Life Cocoon feels solid now.

[Myta]

In a world without PW:S, Life Cocoon's importance is increased for blocking specific mechanics like Doom Lords on Mythic Manno or Slam on Hans and Frans. While MW have major issues on beta, I agree with Suplift that Life Cocoon feels solid now.

I don't think that's going to be a problem, in the month or w/e between 7.0 and Legion release then HFC is going to be retuned. No way stuff like Doomlords and Glaive Thrust will remain the way they are.

[Coronach]

Oh sorry, I wasn't concerned about existing mechanics. I was just using them as examples of the power of being able to increase a tank's health pool above max in a world without Paladin mastery and PW:S.

[cqwrteur]

This thread lol.

[Ajwon]

LC is garbo except as a panic CD to save someone. Let's assume we decide to use LC as a tank cooldown, so the tank calls for it, but oh shit, he took a melee swing and now it's gone just before <dangerous ability> is about to almost oneshot him. A 3 minute CD is a joke. Holy Priest has LC without absorb on a 20-30sec CD (their mastery leaves a huge hot too).

The argument that it applies strong heals, well, if the tank is getting pounded you should already be on him.

[xdmemes]

In a world without PW:S, Life Cocoon's importance is increased for blocking specific mechanics like Doom Lords on Mythic Manno or Slam on Hans and Frans. While MW have major issues on beta, I agree with Suplift that Life Cocoon feels solid now.

A disc can still do this every 6 seconds... it's not all that special.

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This thread lol.

From the guy saying "we don't need utility because that's homogenization"

um bye

[cqwrteur]

From the guy saying "we don't need utility because that's homogenization"

um bye

What kind of utility do we really lack of?

Don't tell me it's just about the LC shit.

[xdmemes]

What kind of utility do we really lack of?

Don't tell me it's just about the LC shit.

How about you tell me what utility you think we currently have that makes us unique and desirable, since you're the one putting forth that assertion.

[Supliftz]

It is simply not true that a tank will not die if you have enveloping mist on them. And again, if enveloping and renewing mist are the reason the tank isn't dying than life cocoon itself is irrelevant. The absorb from life cocoon itself is not very significant compared to the amount of damage that can be taken over a short period of time.

Again, the absorb part of life cocoon is extremely relevant. We've got math to suggest this to be the case.

Anyway Life Cocoon applying enveloping is extremely important because you don't want to actively cast enveloping on most encounters. People are qqing about ooming right now on mistweaver because they're actually casting enveloping mist. It's being balanced around a large mana cost because of it's insane output. A spell that applies it for free is a big deal.

Also if you're in a situation where you're forced to pop enveloping mist on the tank, logic assumes that you would be casting spells on the tank anyway after the absorb procs, and so would your other healers. The 6-7 seconds of enveloping means that the tank isn't going to die unless he is 1 shot.

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A disc can still do this every 6 seconds... it's not all that special.

A disc priest's power word shield doesn't do nearly the same amount of absorbing that life cocoon does.

This isn't even a comparison you can make anymore.

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LC is garbo except as a panic CD to save someone. Let's assume we decide to use LC as a tank cooldown, so the tank calls for it, but oh shit, he took a melee swing and now it's gone just before <dangerous ability> is about to almost oneshot him. A 3 minute CD is a joke. Holy Priest has LC without absorb on a 20-30sec CD (their mastery leaves a huge hot too).

The argument that it applies strong heals, well, if the tank is getting pounded you should already be on him.

Really I have to say about it being a garbo tank cooldown is simply to compare it to other tank cooldowns. Hand of Sacrifice isn't even in the game right now, pain sup is on an extremely long cd, and guardian spirit is basically the same thing but slower. Ironbark is the only tank cooldown that really stands out as being the overall better cooldown, and everyone can agree that it's extremely broken right now.

And like I've explained to peachpies, applying enveloping mist/rem for free is a big deal because you want to avoid casting enveloping whenever possible, due to it being so expensive. Even if for w/e reason you already had both hots on them, you're still causing two massive mastery heals, applying an absorb for ~30% of their hp, and refreshing your two powerful hots.

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LC being "strong" is completely contingent on an artifact bonus and EM being too powerful (reminder: we just started tuning). Otherwise it's still a trash tier excuse for a cooldown.

Also this. Mitigating or preventing damage is always better than trying to outheal it.

You do realize life cocoon is doing both right? Life Cocoon is Mitigating a large amount of damage, and healing up future damage after it's broken. That's why it's so much better now rofl.

I do agree that a lot of life cocoon's power is tied to an artifact trait, but it's still decent enough now w.o the trait to be fine, (it's better than hand of sacrifice). We'll most likely be going after the life cocoon trait after we get celestial breath, because we need to get the revival bonus so it doesn't suck ass, and life cocoon is strong enough now to justify going for it.

On it specifically being tied to Enveloping tuning, I don't see this being a problem. They have to keep enveloping mist strong so the class can function in a 5 man setting.

p.s I guess this will be the next power strikes xd

[Volibear]

Any changes in the last week or two I may have missed while I was on holidays?

[Deleted]

TBH kinda strange that Ironbark got such a low cooldown compared to other similar cooldowns.

The soothing Mist Mechanic is kinda meh and alot diffrent with not able to cast while its channeling.

[Geodew]

Any changes in the last week or two I may have missed while I was on holidays?

??? Just read MMOC front page and scroll down until you see a post you already read