Expeditions - A Reimagining of Long Vanilla Dungeons

[Starry Sidekick]

This is an idea thread. It would be great if you could read the whole post (besides the examples) before inserting your critique (which I would love to hear). Thank You .



Hello!

What I propose is a new type of group content that is similar in quality to those classic super-long dungeons from Vanilla. Think Blackrock Depths, Dire Maul, Mauradon, Sunken Temple, among others. They would be long, fairly open, and cover a story that is less an event and more a gradual, flexible quest chain story arc. The focus is mostly on open exploration and pathfinding, but would not be randomly generated and still contain a solid title, theme, and storyline.


Some facts about Expeditions:

• They would not have a weekly lockout in the traditional sense, as in they would not reset until you completed them (although if you do complete them you can not start a new one until a new week starts)
• You don't have to knock it out all in one sitting. They would have checkpoints that allow you and your friends to skip content that you have completed already. Think of the elevators in Dark Souls/Bloodborne.
• They would be for 3 - 10 players, scaling accordingly.
• Most would be in fairly remote, closed off places like deep forests, underground titan ruins, and isolated islands
• ​Despite this, there would be a clear and consistent story weaved throughout, with scripted events and scenarios within the open environment.
• They would take a player multiple days of constant playing to complete, or be gradually conquered over the course of weeks.
• Many would have a large, labyrinthine map that has a meta unto itself on how to navigate it.
• Most would contain about 13 - 20 bosses.
• Most would be winged (like a raid) or open to a extent not seen since Wailing Caverns.
• Many would see the return of optional, secret, and summonable bosses, as well as unconventional mechanics and generally more risk taking by the developers. Think of the fishing boss in Zul'Gurub or all those bosses in the tavern in Blackrock Depths.
• Some would even feature vendors and NPCs akin to the tavern in Blackrock Depths (remember, unconventional is the key word here.)
• The difficulty would increase from boss to boss as you travel farther on your expedition, focusing more on difficult mechanics instead of straight gear checks. The later bosses would be mechanically similar to a heroic raid boss, with the final baddie breaching mythic levels.
• Clearing them once would unlock a harder difficulty for those that really need it, but it would mostly just be a numbers increase and would not reward any new unique items, only scaled up loot.
• Drop rates for items would be 2-4 times higher than normal dungeons, considering you are not running the same bosses nearly as many times.
• They would absolutely reuse art assets when needed, to lesser the load on developers.
• They would reward heroic dungeon gear at the start, then gradually increase in item level the deeper you traverse.
• Many bosses have cosmetic or vanity items that have a guaranteed drop upon killing.
• There would probably only be 2 - 3 per expansion, with maybe 1 added over the patch cycle.

The purpose of Expeditions would be to bring back that feeling of delving deep into a mysterious and dangerous area with your friends. The target audience are people who want content that they can really sink there teeth into with a small group of friends and not complete in just a day. They would function as something a normal player would chip away at, unlocking checkpoint after checkpoint, and only the extremely dedicated would be able to tear through them in just a day. Completing them just once would be quite an achievement in themselves, and would probably reward a title, mount, and achievement. They would also be great for those people who miss raids like Karazahn.

Now the question is how this would work in regards to other peoples progression clashing with yours. What I am thinking is that every group can start a new "save" of the expedition, up to 3 simultaneously, and only if its with other people. This would allow people to PUG stuff they are already working on with friends and vise versa. You can also choose what save you are entering when you arrive, similar to changing the difficulty of a raid. You could also enter someone else's save if you are grouping with people who have already made progress. You will never lose your original personal save though, and can not enter a group who is past a certain point, say 75% into the expedition. You will not get the mount/title/achievement until you beat every required boss.





So, now the fun part. Here are some examples I whipped up to illustrate what I am proposing (you don't have to read this part if you just want to comment on the idea, as I go into an unnecessary amount of detail because I have no life):


Cutthroat Isle

Many speculated the whereabouts of Nat Pagle, who quickly fled champion's garrisons after the events in Dreanor. Now a distress signal, in the form of a message in the bottle, has arrived on the the shores of the Broken Isles, reading "BEEN CAPTURED. PIRATES LURD ME IN LIKE A DRN MACKEREL. SEND HELP. BRING UH FISHING POLE." He has been captured by pirates, and mostly likely taken to their base, Cuttthroat Isle. While all resources are going to fighting the legion, only a focused group can infiltrate the premises, not through force, but through espionage. Now, brave heroes must venture to Cutthroat Isle, primary headquarters of the newly formed Bloodsail Renegades, to save the famous fisherman and eventually unfold a deeper, darker scheme in the works.

You begin by traveling in a ship to an invading Renegade ship, which you infiltrate and take over. Players will sneak into the loading docks unnoticed and take out the guards in the back entrance, only to be uncovered by lead Docksman, Billy Thatcher. From there you don pirate disguises salvaged from the ship and go do a number of things (of which you can tackle in any order):

• In one path you convince the Barkeeper at the "Booty and Beer Inn" to show you the secret location they are keeping Nat Pagle. The bar is fully functional when you have the diquise on and functions very much like the bar in Blackrock Depths. If you have the checkpoint, you can come back here alone. Anyway, He opens the door in the basement to a collection of underground tunnels, which lead to a cell holding Pagle. There is also an optional boss in another cell. Pagle will thank you for his rescue and follow you out, not before being confronted by the barkeeper himself, aware of your scheme. With him out of the way, you give Nat a disguise and exit the caverns.
• One path will send you on a mission to disable the watchtowers, which will makes traversing the island easier and is required to enter the final location.
• If you have Pagle with your group, you can enter the wild, overgrown section of the island that Nat insists contains "The best fishin' spot on here darn Azeroth". To no ones surprise, things get crazy and multiple fights ensue. Once cleared, the fishing spot with be open to use, holding unique fish and items.
• Another mission will have you enter the smithy to stop the flow of weapons and parts in and out of the island.
• In the last wing you go to the shipyard to stop the masses of ships being built to raid Aszuna.

When all wings have been completed, the final area unlocks, the Captains manor. Here the plot to steal a Pillar of Creation is being developed and must be stopped. You can now take off the pirate disguises and raid the front door. As you ascend to the top, you fight the personal chef, his dog, and then arrive at the captains quarters. Before the fight with the captain is over, he will attempt to escape from the island in his personal boat, only to be intercepted by an aloof Nat Pagle, who just happens to have fished up a large seat beast that gobbles up the captain, leaving nothing remaining.




Uldradon

For millennia this ancient Titan city lay hidden, submerged in deep waters, unknown to the denizens of Azeroth. It's sudden appearance puzzles even the brightest minds. A thorough expedition must be made into its heart, uncovering the secrets within. Along the way, players will discover the cities true purpose, followed along by the famous Brann Bronzebeard.

Ok, so this place is basically Titan Atlantis, and it rose up to the surface now because it is actually the place where the pillars of creation were built. The Pillars creator, Morganon has rebelled against the Titans and seeks to reclaim the pillars as he sees there power "too strong for humans to behold". It is mostly waterlogged and deserted with some areas being reclaimed by Naga, and others still populated with what remains of the titans residents. In the center is the forge where the pillars were built, and (of course) there is an Old God behind the whole thing.

I may or may not post more details but I think I have made my point and none of you will read this section anyway.





TL;DR: Expeditions are essentially those classic dungeons like Blackrock Depths and Sunken Temple, but with checkpoints and are for 3 - 10 players. They have no lockout, but if completed can not be started until the next week. They get more difficult the farther you go, and have about 13 - 20 bosses, some optional or summonable. The focus is on unconventional mechanics and risk taking, not gear checks. You can have three saves of each one at a time, but must beat every required boss to receive the final rewards. They are not meant to be completed in one sitting, and should take a normal player days - weeks to finish.




So, is it any good? Tell me your thoughts, I would love to hear them. Feel free to post your ideas for cool Expeditions as well.

[SoulSoBreezy]

They would also be great for those people who miss raids like Karazahn.

I read it all, but this is pretty much what you're asking for, a Karazhan that sharper difficulty tuning.

[Starry Sidekick]

I read it all, but this is pretty much what you're asking for, a Karazhan that sharper difficulty tuning.

Your not wrong haha. The difference here is that in the case of Karazhan, you have to complete it in a week with a large group of people, and there is no way to preserve progress. These could be done with just a small set of buddies at your own pace.

[rad586]

Well, not a bad idea. I have read only initial part about the concept itself, as the locations are not important.

How would you make the "Checkpoints" act like ? Normal/heroic raid version of raid ID ? Or mythic ?

If mythic, there's a possibility of such scenario:
1) group member leaves before reaching second checkpoint
2) the group finds a replacement, but disbands an hour later without reaching that second checkpoint, decides to come back to it the next day
3) the group forms again and tries to tackle the expedition, only to find out it has been cleared during the night (by a group member that dropped the day before)

There are also other scenarios such as that one. For example, back in TBC I was doing heroic Magisters' Terrace.
We have wiped few times on second boss and had to replace a person or 2 due to people giving up.
At one point after a wipe, we couldn't get back in. We were getting a message about instance being "full".

After a minute or 2 we were able to get inside, and we found corpses of people that were not in our party. We figured out one of the people that we have replaced had tried to hijack our ID. Fortunately we have killed that boss and moved on to others without problems, but we were constantly on edge.

Such issues would be common with this group content if it were to be based on mythic 5-man/raid ID.

[Starry Sidekick]

If mythic, there's a possibility of such scenario:
1) group member leaves before reaching second checkpoint
2) the group finds a replacement, but disbands an hour later without reaching that second checkpoint, decides to come back to it the next day
3) the group forms again and tries to tackle the expedition, only to find out it has been cleared during the night (by a group member that dropped the day before)

In response to each point:

1) In this case the player who left would have their save preserved how it was when they left, with the option to jump back into the groups save at any time.
2) The replacement would get credit for the bosses they killed while he was in the group, and would be able to return to that save.
3) The member that cleared it during the night and all his compatriots would actually be creating a divergent save apart from the others.

Basically you get around this by having multiple diverging saves available to each person and the individual bosses "credits" being personal, not group wide.

- - - Updated - - -

So..let us say you have this asslong dungeon...and to make the journey worth your while, you need to have at least an hour of trash and exploring before the first boss. And the boss needs to be shit hard. Like..mythic 5 man hard. So if you beat him, you say "Ok, I am tired, lets meet again tomorrow" or you press on.

Because, lets say...if that 13-20 boss dungeon was "only" as big as all current WoD 5 mans combined...and as "easy" as HM 5 mans, people would just clear it in one 6 hour run. Or in 3 days of 2 hours each session.

I literally cannot see how you make a dungeon THAT big to last weeks, unless it is raid difficulty. Mythic raid difficulty of trash and bosses and a shitload, a mind numbing shitload of endless trash. (only with save points)

The main thing that contributes to the Expedition's length is the amount of bosses, the increasing difficulty (of which later bosses, at least mechanically, will be as hard as a raid boss), and the various scenarios/dynamic sequences that lay within.

In reality, if you sat down in the morning with a group of friends you could tackle the whole thing in a day. But in a lot of ways, come players might get to a section that they just do not have the gear/skill to complete, and have to become more powerful to progress through. Also, optional bosses let you (slightly) choose how long you want it to be, or if you want to revisit a particular section.

[Starry Sidekick]

Well, the combination of BRM, LBRS and UBRS is something I imagine to be long and epic and could work like this. I loved how you would cross bridges in UBRS and see LBRS below. And just to make it more epic, add BWL and BRF to this. It is a place that works thematically and is vast. It would keep you busy

Yea. One of things that would make this better than, say, multiple winged dungeons, would be that they are interconnected and effect each other. Like how finding Nat Pagle allows you to summon a boss, or taking out the watchtowers makes traversing easier. Not only would there be a strats for the encounters, but strats for navigating the Expedition.

[Laronda]

I like this idea, it's definitely something I could imagine fitting well in the game. I assume it wouldn't be available within the dungeon finder system?

It would be cool to have one "expedition" for each raid, a sort of introduction to what's going on and what we can expect. I'm thinking like the ICC 5 mans but obviously longer in the style you describe.

[Starry Sidekick]

I like this idea, it's definitely something I could imagine fitting well in the game. I assume it wouldn't be available within the dungeon finder system?

It would be cool to have one "expedition" for each raid, a sort of introduction to what's going on and what we can expect. I'm thinking like the ICC 5 mans but obviously longer in the style you describe.

Yea, no dungeon finder, although it could be puggable. I would imagine it would be great for close groups of friends or guilds who can stand spending a lot of time together.

[Thornquist]

A great idea! +1

[Secondwind]

I agree with the general principle, and was suggesting something similar a couple years ago.

The only thing I'd really add is instead of making these 'expeditions' set in stone, make them procedurally generated. So every time you go through an expedition, the experience is different. Secret bosses are hidden in different places, patrols come in different sizes and places, map layouts are different, etc. You could still have themed areas, but the way they interconnect and the exact details of those areas would change every time you started a new expedition. Especially if the idea is to encourage the sort of exploration style gameplay that BRD and UBRS inspired, then having it so you can't just pull up a map on a second window and beeline straight for whatever you're looking for is necessary.

[Starry Sidekick]

I agree with the general principle, and was suggesting something similar a couple years ago.

The only thing I'd really add is instead of making these 'expeditions' set in stone, make them procedurally generated. So every time you go through an expedition, the experience is different. Secret bosses are hidden in different places, patrols come in different sizes and places, map layouts are different, etc. You could still have themed areas, but the way they interconnect and the exact details of those areas would change every time you started a new expedition. Especially if the idea is to encourage the sort of exploration style gameplay that BRD and UBRS inspired, then having it so you can't just pull up a map on a second window and beeline straight for whatever you're looking for is necessary.

I actually think procedural generation could be relegated to a new, separate feature. Something like "Ethereal Voids" that you could enter that would randomly generate a dungeon, and you could change certain parameters to achieve certain effects. For Expeditions, they are really only meant to be fully competed a couple of times. Plus, the story elements would be hard to fit into a location thats constantly changing.

Although, I think the word "Expedition" might work even better for that idea instead of this one. Eh, whatever.

Actually, a little bit of random mob placement or procedural stuff might stop the "map on the second window" thing.

[Secondwind]

I actually think procedural generation could be relegated to a new, separate feature. Something like "Ethereal Voids" that you could enter that would randomly generate a dungeon, and you could change certain parameters to achieve certain effects. For Expeditions, they are really only meant to be fully competed a couple of times. Plus, the story elements would be hard to fit into a location thats constantly changing.

Although, I think the word "Expedition" might work even better for that idea instead of this one. Eh, whatever.

I was thinking more along the lines of secret bosses, hidden areas, and unconventional mechanics being more or less pointless if you know exactly what to look for months before you get access to the content. Also nothing in your original pitch had anything to do with story elements, unless you are refering to those same features as story elements?

[Deleted]

I think this is a good idea.

However minimum number of players is too low. It should be at least 5 to match dungeons.

[Starry Sidekick]

I was thinking more along the lines of secret bosses, hidden areas, and unconventional mechanics being more or less pointless if you know exactly what to look for months before you get access to the content. Also nothing in your original pitch had anything to do with story elements, unless you are refering to those same features as story elements?

I'm talking about scripted events and scenarios that aren't bosses.

The thing is, with how quick and thorough dataminers are these days, its hard to hide anything, even if it's procedural.

[Deleted]

so Miniraids? no thank you!

[Blandalf]

I like this idea. I'd like to see it as mini raids (Kara style) with a minimum requirement of 10 players.

Would be cool if they had level scaling allowing levelling dungeons to be used as an expedition for levelling and max level content.

[Spiral Mage]

I'm guessing when you said "Reimagining of Long Vanilla Dungeons", you just meant in relation to size because your idea holds little else in common with those immense dungeons of the past. However, in and of itself, your idea isn't bad but it would require far too much work to be viable with the failure rate BLIZ has at delivering content fast enough as is.

As for whether or not I'd like to see something like this? With actual gear drops, maybe. And also I think it'd do much better as a 5 man thing, as more and more people are asking for smaller group content. (But there's always the flex system.) Infact, I'm sure many people would love for an idea like you have here, tuned for 5man groups, to replace raiding -entirely- ..

I can't even say I'd disagree there (I have around 5 players I could convince to return, if there was an idea like this in place for us to work together on). The comparison to Karazahn is apt, though. That's just a 10man raid, though, you're atleast, suggesting something much longer, more interesting and more elaborate (hence my statement on BLIZ never managing it when even adding enough raid content seems to be behind them lately).

Could use some tuning but it's a solid idea, I like it.

[dope_danny]

http://www.siliconera.com/2016/04/24...l-fantasy-xiv/

Just wait for blizzard to gage the reaction to this. If its popular i imagine it will show up in WoW too.

[Pull My Finger]

Sounds like something I'd like to do on my own/in a single-player game.

[Uriel]

I always liked BRD..in fact it used to be my favorite Dungeon before a PUG could clear it in under 30 min.. -.-

And I like your Ideas.. But to be frank Blizzard is not the company to present it to. Over the years they have changed from a devoted game focused developer to a money farming one. Look at how half assed they did WOD and doing Legion. I think they do their best to piss off the players so they have a reason to close down servers and discontinue WOW.... so they can focus on more profitable games like Heros or Overwatch.

Why develop a large MMO with classdesign, leveldesign, raids, quests and what have you if you could just make a generic shooter and/or Moba and cash in on additional heros or skins? Instead of development heavy Xpacs you could just publish a new Map or two and be done with it.

So I like the ideas of you but please ppresent it to someone who cares about their game and their players.