Should TPP and TTIP have a clause for Free Movement of People?

[Theodarzna]

So, the EU has it, its called the Free Movement of People. I.E. everyone within an agreement can freely move.

Here is a novel idea, Why not as part of the Free Trade deal allow for the free movement of peoples throughout the trade bloc we are creating? I mean if Capital can freely move to find the cheapest possible labor and production areas, why shouldn't labour be able to go were the pay is better and conditions better?

[Garnier Fructis]

Voted yes, on the initial thinking that people will hate the idea so much in the U.S. that it would be political suicide for a congressman to support the whole deal.

[Skroe]

In good time.

[Theodarzna]

Voted yes, on the initial thinking that people will hate the idea so much in the U.S. that it would be political suicide for a congressman to support the whole deal.

I go with yes, purely because of both that reason and that it would add a clause that gives labour some power back, I.E. the ability to chase higher wages. Thus businesses can't use locked in poor labour and instead will have to at least struggle to keep employees.

[Deleted]

Before the US we need to negotiate with Russia.

[Skroe]

Voted yes, on the initial thinking that people will hate the idea so much in the U.S. that it would be political suicide for a congressman to support the whole deal.

Nah TTIP and TPP are going to happen. They're pretty much tailor made for a lame-duck session. Every two years, another shot.

No rush. They can wait out the Sanderistas and the Trumpist Legion of Losers latest anti-trade tantrum.

[Theodarzna]

As another idea why also not turn over all law making to this tribunal that will be acting as an international law court, as a stepping stone to a global government?

[Garnier Fructis]

Nah TTIP and TPP are going to happen. They're pretty much tailor made for a lame-duck session. Every two years, another shot.

No rush. They can wait out the Sanderistas and the Trumpist Legion of Losers latest anti-trade tantrum.

This seems sort of tangential, but basically I'm not a big fan of the whole 'sue governments for lost profits' thing. Do we have any statistics on how successful (or not) they've been in past trade deals that allow this?

[Masark]

Here is a novel idea, Why not as part of the Free Trade deal allow for the free movement of peoples throughout the trade bloc we are creating? I mean if Capital can freely move to find the cheapest possible labor and production areas, why shouldn't labour be able to go were the pay is better and conditions better?

Because that isn't beneficial to the people/corporations that are writing them.

[Theodarzna]

Because that isn't beneficial to the people/corporations that are writing them.

Well ultimately it is all pointless, the US will barely grow at all if any from the pact. And it only forestalls the inevitable problems the world will be suffering from a combination ecological problems and birth rate decline/aging populations.

[Independent voter]

So, the EU has it, its called the Free Movement of People. I.E. everyone within an agreement can freely move.

Yeah, that will make it much more likely to pass.

[Theodarzna]

Yeah, that will make it much more likely to pass.

Why wouldn't it? As Skroe points out it will be shoved in even if its against the Democratic will of the electorate. Why bother with the pretense of public approval?

Plus with TPP/TTIP's global governance tribunal issuing binding rulings on law, we might not even really need this pesky national sovereignty or the United States as an actual government in time. It can atrophy away from irrelevance.

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This seems sort of tangential, but basically I'm not a big fan of the whole 'sue governments for lost profits' thing. Do we have any statistics on how successful (or not) they've been in past trade deals that allow this?

In theory it will help to deprive the US of sovereignty, and over time make the US as an institutional thing irrelevant, sublimating it within an international tribunal.

But in all seriousness the Next Trump and the Next Sanders will have a field day if the US is actually made to bend the knee to a foreign power like that.

[bufferunderrun]

So, the EU has it, its called the Free Movement of People. I.E. everyone within an agreement can freely move.

Here is a novel idea, Why not as part of the Free Trade deal allow for the free movement of peoples throughout the trade bloc we are creating? I mean if Capital can freely move to find the cheapest possible labor and production areas, why shouldn't labour be able to go were the pay is better and conditions better?

I don't understand, it's already pretty easy for decent skilled european to find a job in the Usa the same is true the other way around, granted if you plan to move to be a burger flipper or take on any other unskilled job it gonna be hard. The problem is that the cultural approach to the job market is vastly different in both continents and not everyone is able to cope with it.

[Theodarzna]

I don't understand, it's already pretty easy for decent skilled european to find a job in the Usa the same is true the other way around, granted if you plan to move to be a burger flipper or take on any other unskilled job it gonna be hard. The problem is that the cultural approach to the job market is vastly different in both continents and not everyone is able to cope with it.

The point is that anyone within the trade zone would be free to go where the jobs are they want to work at. No matter what country they are from this should be allowed so people have the freedom to vote with their feet.

[Deleted]

No, it's one thing to allow free movement between developped countries, another to let developping countries have free access to the developped countries. I'm not keen on it because that means we'd have massive waves of immigration by unskilled people who just want to use the welfare state.

[ranzino]

Well, USA would have to stop all and every Green Card and Visa Waiver restrictions. i could stay longer than 90 or even 180 days for as long iam not a burden to welfare. Works both ways of course. Come to Oktoberfest and stay until easter...5 years later. You're welcome.

[Deleted]

TTIP shouldn't exist. It is a horrible deal weakening the power of governments in favour of corporations, relaxing the EU's food laws and the USA's banking laws. A horrible deal.

[Unionoob]

I go with yes, purely because of both that reason and that it would add a clause that gives labour some power back, I.E. the ability to chase higher wages. Thus businesses can't use locked in poor labour and instead will have to at least struggle to keep employees.

In reality we might see labour move from better paid countries to less paid because jobs will be where it's cheaper.

[ranzino]

TTIP shouldn't exist. It is a horrible deal weakening the power of governments in favour of corporations, relaxing the EU's food laws and the USA's banking laws. A horrible deal.

TTIP will not make it. But the question from opening post still stands: why not de-regulate people's movement too ? Do it like Schengen all the way.

[Xires]

Nah TTIP and TPP are going to happen. They're pretty much tailor made for a lame-duck session. Every two years, another shot.

No rush. They can wait out the Sanderistas and the Trumpist Legion of Losers latest anti-trade tantrum.

So you obviously don't know anything about TPP and that it puts power into the hands of the top 500 corporations in the world. CI highly suggest you actually read up on how bad this deal is and how it will only send more jobs to the 3rd world or just bring the 3rd world populace into the first world to take those jobs at lower wages.
TPP is GREAT for rich corporations but bad for nationality's and regular people. But since Obama and Clinton (corporate stooges) the left wing liberals are all for giving power and wealth to those major corporations.

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TTIP shouldn't exist. It is a horrible deal weakening the power of governments in favour of corporations, relaxing the EU's food laws and the USA's banking laws. A horrible deal.

Glad someone else knows that. From the European union too? That is surprising- I thought you guys were like robots and supported everything and anything that the left wing proposes no matter how out of touch with reality it is.

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No, it's one thing to allow free movement between developped countries, another to let developping countries have free access to the developped countries. I'm not keen on it because that means we'd have massive waves of immigration by unskilled people who just want to use the welfare state.

wtf....and you're from Sweden saying that? I thought you guys were purposely trying to do just that. I'm surprised.

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The point is that anyone within the trade zone would be free to go where the jobs are they want to work at. No matter what country they are from this should be allowed so people have the freedom to vote with their feet.

By all means- go on over to the EU. Please note they are worse off then we are.