Legion alpha PvP stinks

[Wow]

It is going to be a repeat of MoP 5.0 but at least with templates they can fix things sooner..sort of.

They've been able to nerf abilities pvp only all wod but didn't in many cases or waited insane time to do it. It's the same thing here just because they can doesn't mean they will. The templates don't really change anything.

Just like the pvp talents didn't fix anything and infact made things worse lol.

Everything people thought about legion pvp that would make pvp better has ended up making it worse or doing nothing.

But holinka has been trainwreck after trainwreck after trainwreck so what did people really expect?

[Baine]

On topic. WoW PvP is an afterthought and basically a mini game, they even said adding arena was probably a mistake.

Stranglely, I diverted to casual pvp (strictly random BGs) these last months (I had no interesting PVE progresssion to do) and I had a lot of fun. Not that there was not some problems here and there, but it was an enjoyable experience to me.

[shoegazing]

the only reason anyone could be excited about Legion PvP is because they aren't knowledgable enough about PvP to know better, lol...

edit: or I guess because they listened to the dev team's pretty words instead of paying attention to their actions...

- - - Updated - - -

They've been able to nerf abilities pvp only all wod but didn't in many cases or waited insane time to do it. It's the same thing here just because they can doesn't mean they will. The templates don't really change anything.

Just like the pvp talents didn't fix anything and infact made things worse lol.

Everything people thought about legion pvp that would make pvp better has ended up making it worse or doing nothing.

But holinka has been trainwreck after trainwreck after trainwreck so what did people really expect?

tbh i'm far more upset with the class designers (celestalon and his ilk) than with holinka. ya ashran sucked but i don't think anyone expected it to be good except the "bring back old AV bc i love PvEing raid bosses in BGs!!" crowd.

lots of the PvP systems for Legion are good in theory, it's just that none of it will matter because it's all superceded by dogshit class design

[Kretan]

you realize gladiator titles existed before achievements did, right? now, since you decided to bring up gladiator titles, where is yours? oh right you've never sniffed one

Bragging about a glad title from near a decade ago really doesn't say much fyi.

[shoegazing]

Bragging about a glad title from near a decade ago really doesn't say much fyi.

i'm not bragging about it, he's the one who brought it up when he's never sniffed anything close to one. check yourself

edit: as if "you're only in the top 3% of the rated ladder so if you're not in the top 0.5% you're trash" is a valid argument coming from a scrub random BG hero, lmao...

[Wow]

tbh i'm far more upset with the class designers (celestalon and his ilk) than with holinka. ya ashran sucked but i don't think anyone expected it to be good except the "bring back old AV bc i love PvEing raid bosses in BGs!!" crowd.

lots of the PvP systems for Legion are good in theory, it's just that none of it will matter because it's all superceded by dogshit class design

Both are a problem here the class design got fucked but that doesn't make the pvp changes any better. That rng ashran loot was so bad they had to make a vendor I know let's make all gear from boxes only people will love it.... I know let's make tanks good in pvp because that's always gone over well. Let's make ashran still a thing.

We've seen how much holinka has failed with things that would be good in theory to trust anything now.

[Aceveda]

the only reason anyone could be excited about Legion PvP is because they aren't knowledgable enough about PvP to know better, lol...

edit: or I guess because they listened to the dev team's pretty words instead of paying attention to their actions...

This. No knowledgeable player wants further dumbing down of the game.

The only reason I think they're dumbing down the game wherever the hell they can is because of the WoW movie.

The new players comming from the WoW movie will log in to WoW, recieve a 100 boost, obtain the ASHBRINGER, deal millions of damage (nvm the stat squish lets just give plebs million healthpools & dealing millions of damage so they'll feel like gods), and with pruning/dumbed down mechanics there's little to no failure present.

Easy $$$ with the launch, and then the game will crash and burn 2 months in. It sure as fuck won't be enjoyable in the long run when there's no learning curve, there's nothing to aspire to, everyone plays the same..

So much for wanting WoW as an esport.. lol

[Kretan]

I think that one of the biggest complaints for WoW as an esport was the fact that it was so difficult to follow if you didn't already know what was going on actually.

[shoegazing]

I think that one of the biggest complaints for WoW as an esport was the fact that it was so difficult to follow if you didn't already know what was going on actually.

that's exactly it.

if you're trying to spectate but you've never played the game before, it's impossible to watch. even ppl who play the game casually think it's boring because they aren't following the cooldown trades that are happening. most of them aren't smart enough to understand why landing an offensive cyclone on life cocoon is a big deal.

outsiders just complain "omg everyone's just at 100% life, no one ever dies, this is so boring!!!!" because they don't have the game knowledge to follow the action

so perhaps Blizzard is trying to dumb the game down to make it easier to follow, but all that's accomplished is pissing off the people that would actually compete at the highest level, lmao.

in my opinion, screw the viewers. if the game itself doesn't offer depth to the players themselves, there's a big problem.

[Aceveda]

Exactly, if they're screwing over everyone who competes at the highest level.. then to hell with the viewers.

[shoegazing]

wanna know why league is so successful? champions only have 5-6 buttons to press, engagements are pretty quick, and there are map objectives to follow even if you don't understand the other things that are going on.

it's a successful formula, but it isn't one that WoW should try to replicate. WoW isn't a MOBA and it isn't going to compete with MOBAs. WoW PvP should just stick to being itself, a fantastic, amazingly deep game for a very niche audience.

[Sharein]

I don't have beta access but I can believe you that PvP is legion so far looks bad. That said, I really don't feel like siding with anyone who thinks game problems lie in Blizzard carrying about money more than about their game.

You know, even if we agree that blizzard only cares about money, they still make better profit if they deliver a game that everyone likes and makes their customers happy, so how is that fact (that they are so greedy, yadda yadda) connected to shit pvp?

I really don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is borderline childish logic. I can understand blaming their greed when they change game to cater to broader audience (like LFR, casual leveling system, whatever) but suggesting that it's the reason why they abandoned pvp is just idiotic.

The current dev team lacks the skills to make a good game. They have some kind of vision that looks good on paper but doesn't work at all.

lots of the PvP systems for Legion are good in theory, it's just that none of it will matter because it's all superceded by dogshit class design

Same as with WoD. Legion = WoD 2.

[shoegazing]

this is what Ion Hazzikostas said on the alpha PvP forum:

I'd like to describe one category of abilities that is the least likely to return: tools added in recent expansions that ultimately contributed to homogenization. BC is generally well-regarded historically when in comes to WoW PvP (and raiding). But then we gave everyone 4 new abilities in Wrath; then 3 more on top of that in Cata. And then reworking the talent system in Mists and Warlords actually introduced a ton of new active abilities and procs (since the old talent "trees" actually were mostly passive modifiers with only a handful of active gameplay drivers).

Along the way, we made what I'll freely admit were design mistakes. The underlying one was probably just committing to adding X new abilities each expansion even when many classes genuinely were complete and functional packages without any need for that many new abilities. But then more specifically, coming up with fun and desirable new abilities is hard, and a bit too often we turned to the easy path of looking for a class's weaknesses and offering solutions to those weaknesses. Paladins lack mobility when Freedom isn't up? Let's give them them an array of passive and active sprints to choose among. Shamans don't really have CC? Let's give them Hex, a stun, and a root. And so forth.

Subjectively, removing those things now feels like a nerf, and objectively, it essentially is one. But in the context of broader CC and cooldown disarmament, it's not coming at the expense of balance. And offering new tools, especially through the PvP talent system, that can accentuate strengths, seems like a better path than continually shoring up weaknesses at the expense of diversity.

Finally, I'd like to respond to the idea that this is all about increasing accessibility for new players at the expense of veterans. It is not. The new player experience has always been fairly streamlined, with only a handful of abilities available, and new ones meted out over the course of many levels. We don't think that the existence or absence of a cooldown or CC tool at level 75 has any impact on a new player's ability to approach and enjoy the game. But it does have impact on the clarity of gameplay at max level, spec homogeneity, and how impactful each individual ability can be in a world full of analogues and counters.

But then, look at the treatment that the rogue class is receiving:

Subterfuge is !@#$ing ridiculous, but is subterfuge being removed? Lmao no, instead we're losing our Garrote.

Feint/Elusiveness are %^-*ing ridiculous, but are we losing Fenit/Elusiveness? No, instead they're taking away Preparation.

The contradiction between words and deed is glaring.

[Borgia]

this is what Ion Hazzikostas said on the alpha PvP forum:



But then, look at the treatment that the rogue class is receiving:

Subterfuge is !@#$ing ridiculous, but is subterfuge being removed? Lmao no, instead we're losing our Garrote.

Feint/Elusiveness are %^-*ing ridiculous, but are we losing Fenit/Elusiveness? No, instead they're taking away Preparation.

The contradiction between words and deed is glaring.

Not to mention they turned assassination into a damage spec taking away gouge and blind making it some sort of poor man's feral druid. We bring nothing to the table now compared to the other specs except for auto slow and a mortal strike effect.

[Stormspellz]

They most certainly did say adding arena into the game was a mistake. One of the Vice Presidents of Blizzard even went as far to say that adding arenas was the 2nd worst mistake Blizzard made in regards to WoW, in an interview. (The biggest mistake he said, was not being fully prepared for the massive success of the game at launch.

It was how it was implemented and that they didn't design the game with pvp from the start, which was also verified at a later interview.

[Reapocalypse]

this is what Ion Hazzikostas said on the alpha PvP forum:



But then, look at the treatment that the rogue class is receiving:

Subterfuge is !@#$ing ridiculous, but is subterfuge being removed? Lmao no, instead we're losing our Garrote.

Feint/Elusiveness are %^-*ing ridiculous, but are we losing Fenit/Elusiveness? No, instead they're taking away Preparation.

The contradiction between words and deed is glaring.

I really dont get it, i really dont, how does a 30 second Aura Mastery after being interrupted sound good in their heads? lets reward bad gameplay with a stupid mechanic? Or a constant Knockback spam with Protpaladin, not to mention that almost every melee now has to have a 30y teleport/gapcloser spell that is in some cases just spamable.

Things like these just cant be fixed by tuning, we are like 4-8 weeks away from the Prepatch, we need MASSIVE changes to the PvP tree and some class mechanics in PvP asap or Legion will be doomed for every PvPer before it even releases.

Class Fantasy is appearently the removal of everything that doesnt do any dmg or healing and change the color of it to match the specc's icon, yay for our glorious new animations.

[dwightyo39]

On the beta pvp realm it seems they need to tune some damage and healing for some classes.

[Caolela]

Things like these just cant be fixed by tuning, we are like 4-8 weeks away from the Prepatch, we need MASSIVE changes to the PvP tree and some class mechanics in PvP asap or Legion will be doomed for every PvPer before it even releases.

But it won't happen and Blizz doesn't give a shit. If PvP'ers don't like what they're doing to WoW PvP, Blizz figures they'll just go buy OW or HotS after they wasted their money on Legion. Then they've sold 2 copies of product instead of just 1.

The answer is not to buy any Blizz titles until/unless they get their shit together.

[Deleted]

the MS effect on Aimed shot is now a PvP talent.

Hunter's MS has been tied to their pet for a while and this still remains. The Viper Sting PvP talent can actually be stacked with it. Say you're training a healer they would take 25% reduced healing due to your pet and do 30% less healing because of Viper Sting.

Survival has traps. MM has scatter PvP talented. Like I said, the good players will adapt.

MM can pick the Scatter Shot PvP talent yet they have nothing to follow it with. It has a potential use to setup a partners CC but you already have a disorient with Bursting Shot baseline. The niche that the ability has though is the removal of DoTs from the target which has been lost from many other CCs with the loss of glyphs. Perhaps it will be useful in HLS or a similar comp to allow you to swap CC around (yet it will DR with Fear).

[Dezminion]

On the beta pvp realm it seems they need to tune some damage and healing for some classes.

I believe, that this thread is not bout the numbers, it is more related to the fact, that by removing a lot of situational abilities Blizzard has turned PvP into a PvE-combat style, meaning that you just tunnel your ability prio like at raids and pray to god, that your targets HP is the first to reach zero.

That kind of a gameplay is rly dull at PvP