Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[HuxNeva]

This is not about LFR being 'good' or 'bad' it is about a specific argument that turns up in these discussions time and time again. It is what i refer to as the 'subsidy' argument, and it goes something like this 'you (inserts some derogatory term for people that raid) are so lucky us (LFR exclusive raiders) exist, because without us there would be no raids developed at all'. Variations exist, but they all boil down to 'development of raid content can only be economically justified because of the masses of LFR'ers consuming the content'.

Is his true?

As far as I know Blizzard designs raids around the 'heroic' difficulty, and derives the other difficulties from that

Normal is mostly just a re-tune
Mythic is a re-tune + some extra/adapted abilities
LFR is a re-tune with disabled abilities, and specific art assets (loot sets) designed

Yes, there are exceptions to the above, but probably this iit is largely accurate.

So the main development 'cost' is not in Mythic raiding, it is developing the initial encounter for (Heroic/Normal). The more you deviate from that core the higher the extra costs, but the extra will be relative to the large initial investment. This is the basis of the reuse model, which is undeniably cheaper than having completely separate raids for different difficulties developed from scratch.

So who raids? Who 'consumes' this content?

Participation figures in current tier raiding are (data from SoO, using current terminology):

LFR: 70%
Normal:40%
Heroic: 25%
Mythic: 10%

It is safe to assume Heroic players will have taken part in Normal, and Mythic players will have taken part in Heroic. Taking out the overlap, I would guess that about 50-55% of the playerbase raids N/H/M.
The argument 'LFR sponsors raid development' should be laid to rest, as LFR just expands content to an additional 15-20% of players (at most, since it assumes no LFR player sets foot in normals). Raiding outside LFR is not a 'niche' activity, it is a staple of the MMO game design with high participation numbers. The game was profitable designing encounters long before LFR existed, and would still be without it.

Given these figures, it seems the 'subsidy' argument makes no sense. Besides, you might as well argue N/H/M players sponsor LFR. You might as well argue Humans and Orcs sponsor model development of Gnomes, Dwarfs, Tauren and Goblins.

I'm not arguing for or against LFR. As I have stated before in other threads I do find the current implementation horrendous, but see that design is a direct result of Blizzard's failure in the nurturing the social environment, or as one could say Blizzard's unfortunate destruction of the potential for a social environment. It is impossible to provide a meaningful challenge to a casual group that has to take into account there will be significant portions of AFK'ers and a few active griefers in the run. I'm all for providing a nice challenging raid experience for people that can not commit to an organized raiding schedule. Current LFR does not offer that, and is in fact an insult to the casual player.

I'm just staying stop saying 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

[Aleksej89]

LFR almost doubles the number of people that see the Raid content.
If LFR did not exist a lot of people would not be interested in subscribing at all after a major content patch has arrived, since they are not interested in joining guilds.

I do not know does LFR actually pay for the whole raid development, but it is definitely a huge chunk of profit.
Especially considering that "dumbing down" the raid is much easier and takes a tiny bit of effort from blizzard.

[Kokolums]

I think LFR kills sub numbers because it allows people to see all the content they want without making a single friend. Its the friendships that compel people to stay subbed even when the content is lacking. Once people unsub, its easy to forget the game.

I think this game could go to 30 million subs but the antisocial tools must go. Unfortunately, they added ANOTHER antisocial feature in legion with the DISASTEROUS Suramar quest system. That's yet another thing that needs to be removed but it wont be.

Without LFR, subs would be dramatically higher and you'd have more raiders overall, even if a lower percentage were actually raiding.

[A Chozo]

Well, the developers stated that LFR justifies the cost of producing raids, that's why this whole argument exists. Until they provide another statement - the most recent one was that the number of people using Group Finder increased - this argument will be the one used.

It is safe to assume Heroic players will have taken part in Normal, and Mythic players will have taken part in Heroic. Taking out the overlap, I would guess that about 50-55% of the playerbase raids N/H/M.

Look, I'm not expert, but I think this number OR the way it's presented is wrong.

50-55% of the RAIDING playerbase would be a better guess. But 50-55% of the whole playerbase? It's suspicious.

And again, if you group Mythic Raiders with Normal Raiders in that %, you'r inflating the numbers.

[Relapses]

I think this game could go to 30 million subs but the antisocial tools must go. Unfortunately, they added ANOTHER antisocial feature in legion with the DISASTEROUS Suramar quest system. That's yet another thing that needs to be removed but it wont be.

...if you really think there are 30 millions gamers in the world willing to pay $15/mo to play WoW, I have some beachfront property in Utah I'd like to show you.

[HuxNeva]

Look, I'm not expert, but I think this number OR the way it's presented is wrong.

The numbers were taken from the Wowhead stats that were based on sifting through the complete armory at the end of SoO.

[Aleksej89]

Also as far as i understand it, people who played Mythic also played Heroic and also played Normal and also played LFR.

So the total "raiding" playerbase is supposedly 70%, while the Normal->Mythic is in total 40%.
Meaning that 30% of LFR players never went to Normal difficulty.

So right there with using your numbers (and i doubt those are truly correct) LFR almost doubles the raiding playerbase for MINIMAL effort from blizzard.
LFR may not pay for 100% of raiding content, but it sure doubles the theoretical "profit".

[Okacz]

...if you really think there are 30 millions gamers in the world willing to pay $15/mo to play WoW, I have some beachfront property in Utah I'd like to show you.

Yeah, 30m players makes no sense now, that's a huge leap. If he said so before, like when WoW had around 12m players, it would sound plausible.

You know, like when it didn't have LFR.

[Kokolums]

...if you really think there are 30 millions gamers in the world willing to pay $15/mo to play WoW, I have some beachfront property in Utah I'd like to show you.

subs not gamers.

There are 750 million people in Europe.
300 million in the US
175 million in Japan
1.3 billion in china

All you need is probably one half of one percent of the public with a wow sub.

[A Chozo]

As said above, if LFR alone is capable of doubling the raider numbers, and it's enough to justify the creation of raids, then it's paying raiding.

The numbers were taken from the Wowhead stats that were based on sifting through the complete armory at the end of SoO.

Please link me that, I'm having difficulty in understanding those statistics.

[hulkgor]

LFR almost doubles the number of people that see the Raid content.
If LFR did not exist a lot of people would not be interested in subscribing at all after a major content patch has arrived, since they are not interested in joining guilds.

Or maybe they would actually have an incentive to join guilds, or if not interested in that, join\organize regular pug runs, as we used to before LFR popped up.

Lots and lots of raids\pugs were organized to raid in WOTLK, be it Naxx, ToC or ICC... and some guilds even originated from those runs.

Saying its LFR or gtfo is just an absurd statement.

Also, why the hell is LFR the only 'raid' (lol) mode that rewards valor points?

Remove Valor from LFR and those % numbers would plummet.

[Pull My Finger]

Some people will willingly make a totally convoluted thing out of a simple matter, and convince themselves of the biggest nonsense, just to feel better about being able to make some silly point of theirs.

[Deleted]

This is not about LFR being 'good' or 'bad' it is about a specific argument that turns up in these discussions time and time again. It is what i refer to as the 'subsidy' argument, and it goes something like this 'you (inserts some derogatory term for people that raid) are so lucky us (LFR exclusive raiders) exist, because without us there would be no raids developed at all'. Variations exist, but they all boil down to 'development of raid content can only be economically justified because of the masses of LFR'ers consuming the content'.

Is his true?

As far as I know Blizzard designs raids around the 'heroic' difficulty, and derives the other difficulties from that

Normal is mostly just a re-tune
Mythic is a re-tune + some extra/adapted abilities
LFR is a re-tune with disabled abilities, and specific art assets (loot sets) designed

Yes, there are exceptions to the above, but probably this iit is largely accurate.

So the main development 'cost' is not in Mythic raiding, it is developing the initial encounter for (Heroic/Normal). The more you deviate from that core the higher the extra costs, but the extra will be relative to the large initial investment. This is the basis of the reuse model, which is undeniably cheaper than having completely separate raids for different difficulties developed from scratch.

So who raids? Who 'consumes' this content?

Participation figures in current tier raiding are (data from SoO, using current terminology):

LFR: 70%
Normal:40%
Heroic: 25%
Mythic: 10%

It is safe to assume Heroic players will have taken part in Normal, and Mythic players will have taken part in Heroic. Taking out the overlap, I would guess that about 50-55% of the playerbase raids N/H/M.
The argument 'LFR sponsors raid development' should be laid to rest, as LFR just expands content to an additional 15-20% of players (at most, since it assumes no LFR player sets foot in normals). Raiding outside LFR is not a 'niche' activity, it is a staple of the MMO game design with high participation numbers. The game was profitable designing encounters long before LFR existed, and would still be without it.

Given these figures, it seems the 'subsidy' argument makes no sense. Besides, you might as well argue N/H/M players sponsor LFR. You might as well argue Humans and Orcs sponsor model development of Gnomes, Dwarfs, Tauren and Goblins.

I'm not arguing for or against LFR. As I have stated before in other threads I do find the current implementation horrendous, but see that design is a direct result of Blizzard's failure in the nurturing the social environment, or as one could say Blizzard's unfortunate destruction of the potential for a social environment. It is impossible to provide a meaningful challenge to a casual group that has to take into account there will be significant portions of AFK'ers and a few active griefers in the run. I'm all for providing a nice challenging raid experience for people that can not commit to an organized raiding schedule. Current LFR does not offer that, and is in fact an insult to the casual player.

I'm just staying stop saying 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

Mythic only takes 5-10% of developer resources.

Mythic's a re-tune?

I can name many "heroic aka Mythic" bosses that have significant changes to them.


Sha of Fear
Sha of Pride (Pacman <3)
Ra-den
Garrosh
Siegecrafter Blackfuse
Imperator
Archimonde
Gorefiend

I can list many more.

[Deleted]

No, it does not.

It removes the carrot on a stick. People would sub and join guilds to experience the content and be subbed for many months to see it.

Now, they press a button and they are done. /unsub

So, no i think the argument is flawed and it think not only does it hurt the game's progression systems and social incentives as it grosses less money to blizzard on the long run.

[Vestig3]

Came here expecting it would be a Rym thread.

Also i dont know which blizz dev it was that said it in a interview but when they design a instance they start with Heroic and then tune it down and up for the other difficulties.

[rogueMatthias]

This discussion AGAIN? Give it a few more posts and we'll be back to the "Blizzard should only cater and make content for the top % of players because it inspires others to dream of being as awesome as they are" argument again. Why not scrap normal and heroic modes too, so all the scrubs that aren't good enough to do Mythic can have something to aspire to rather than seeing the "welfare" version of the raids.

Blizzard will always spend more money and time on content that more people are doing. A smaller percentage of players do arenas - do you really want Blizzard investing as much time and resources into raids as they do into new Arenas and PVP content?

[Deleted]

As said above, if LFR alone is capable of doubling the raider numbers, and it's enough to justify the creation of raids, then it's paying raiding.



Please link me that, I'm having difficulty in understanding those statistics.

Yeah it bring few players into raiding but far more players lost interest in raiding at same time. I know lot of players what put LFR and overall having 4 difficulty levels of raids off from raiding and guilds in general. They become solo players without guilds whast just join game to see content then leave. LFR definitly created lot of solo players what dont want or doesnt see reason to join guilds and play with other players at all.

I am one of them. I used to be hardcore raider up until end of Cata where i start asking my self why i am even bothering with organized raiding when i can solo it in LFR and save so many hours doing pointless higher difficulty levels just to see same content with different rewards what will become absolote anyway.

[Deadite]

I'm just staying stop saying 'LFR pays for raids', as that argument is false.

It is not false because the people that actually made the game said it is true. I think i will go with what they say rather than you.

[Deleted]

LFR Doesn't need to exist and it in no way justifies any costs. It disincentivizes player progression, makes people lazy, toxic and ensures they will never improve at the game since they will never want to. The entire problem revolves around the fact that raiding is the main PvE objective. There is no real need to farm consumables or do reputations anymore. In Vanilla, TBC and to some degree WotlK there were plenty of things to do even if you didn't take part in raiding.
I fully empathize with the LFR players nowadays since there really isn't any options besides LFR (in theory) if you aren't going to improve at the game, but i honestly think that many of the difficulties should be removed and replaced in favor of different content. Raiding should be a reward for doing decent, not a requirement or the only option in the game. And yes i know a lot of people who played since cataclysm will tell me that there are PLENTY of things to do in the game, but there truely aren't besides raiding and PvP (compared to the earlier expacs) This also comes down to the efficiency changes that makes the gameplay faster, and i think this is currently a big issue with WoW.

[Jtbrig7390]

LFR Doesn't need to exist and it in no way justifies any costs.

You do realize blizzard disagree's with you right?

I mean they have made the statment more then once and have the data to back it up as well. Those who disagree are fools its that simple.


Once again BLIZZARD the company who makes the game you play has said LFR pays for Raiding. They will no longer drop bulk of there budget into content only a small percent will see that's a fact.