Does the 'LFR pays for Raid Development' argument make sense?

[primalmatter]

The marginal cost of adding LFR to a raid tier, once you have the other raid modes, is likely to be quite low. There's no new graphics or art to be created (the gear art in WoD LFR was reused from 5 mans, I think, with just recoloring), and no new mechanics. There's no great tuning needed either (beyond "nerf it until the bosses die"), and no concern for design oddities causing class stacking.

The major cost, I imagine, was the cost of engineering the LFR system itself, with queues and the like. But that's largely a sunk cost now.

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That would depend on difficulty.

I am not talking about the cost of implementing it but rather the effect of doing so. Currently the plan is to have lfr drop gear that baring a lucky drop or a high mythic+ drop will be better then anything else.

Once lfr hits all the rep rewards. All the world quests and dungeons save mythic plus will effectively be made null and void. Considering the massive amounts of time put forth to extend a much more varied and longer end game to casual players isn't lfr effectively shooting themselves in the foot?

Yes LFR will have good rewards again in doing so however it will once more start the cycle of nothing to do at end game but lfr and transmog hunting for non raiders.

[Nubulous]

I would be interested in a few pieces of information about this. How did they ensure that they saw only mains and not alts? What scale model did they use? Did they look at the dates that the raid was completed? IE obviously near the end would see a drastic increase in LFR participation purely from alts alone.

I will start by saying I loved LFR for my alts in MoP. Hated in WoD. Hoping for it to improve for alts in Legion.

To answer the OP, no. The game was at its peak before LFR was ever a thing. LFR wasn't a thing until the very end of cata, when the subs started dropping. I mean, lets be real here. Without raids, there is no PvE end game. Anyone at max would either PvP or quit. LFR doesn't justify raids. Needing something for the players to actually do at max level does. Wanting to keep money flowing into the game longer then 1 month subscription times does. Take out LFR, and raids will still be there. No matter what the ones who Love LFR, or blizzards PR talk says.

It would be pure suicide for a game like WoW to not have raids.Their PvP isn't the best, nor particularity well balanced. They have nothing outside of PvP like an Asian MMO would with cosmetic costumes. Raids are the reason WoW is around now. Without them, WoW would be dead. LFR has no impact on the importance of this fact.

Well said. I mean from a board of directors/investors view maybe LFR pays for raiding only in the fact they can say this many people participate in it so the budget spent on it is justified.

Maybe there is a wow where there is no raiding and there is only 5 man content but that is a wow I would not play and I dont think the endgame would last very long if that was the case. Maybe thats just me though. Wow IMO has the best "raiding" of all MMOS out there and without that its just another MMO

Like you said I dont know what wow does particular well outside of raiding that other MMOs dont also do without charging a subscription fee and often are free or less expensive to start with. At that point you might as well make Warcraft 4 and abandon wow.

[Vichan]

Yea gl with that being if you want to do X thing you better have your legendary from Y thing.

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You got forced to do a raid. So yea.

I'm not sure you understand what forced means. I wasn't forced to do anything, I got it by doing what i was already doing and you don't HAVE to get the ring so the "forced" thing still doesn't work

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Once again lfr will be around before any TJ or timeless isle stuff come into affect for the year long drought. Stop focusing on just the last patch.

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If they gave world content that gave the same gear as lfr which would you think would have more ppl doing if they had to choose one or the other?

Mist reputation rewarded better gear than looking for raid. The isle of thunder reputation vendor also had bis pre-raid trinkets for melee and casters.

[Osmeric]

I am not talking about the cost of implementing it but rather the effect of doing so. Currently the plan is to have lfr drop gear that baring a lucky drop or a high mythic+ drop will be better then anything else.

Once lfr hits all the rep rewards. All the world quests and dungeons save mythic plus will effectively be made null and void. Considering the massive amounts of time put forth to extend a much more varied and longer end game to casual players isn't lfr effectively shooting themselves in the foot?

Yes LFR will have good rewards again in doing so however it will once more start the cycle of nothing to do at end game but lfr and transmog hunting for non raiders.

Unless LFR gear (or some tangible reward from LFR) is worth getting, LFR will be pointless beyond running it once.

I think it was clear that the reward for LFR in WoD was too low to get people to run it, and I'm sure they lost some subs because of that. It was useful mostly for the legendary chain and (very slightly) for VP.

In ordinary raiding, maxing out your gear from a difficulty level is more likely to mean you go to the next difficulty level. With LFR in WoD I don't think that happened as much. So we might see them toning down the difficulty of normal mode to be more like SoO Flex. If Normal becomes a natural pug mode then there will be a natural progression path from LFR => Normal mode pugs => Guild-oriented raid teams.

[Vichan]

Everyone here is also forgetting that in WoD they tried to funnel people into raiding normal modes via the flex system and nerfing lfr, look how that turned out in the most raid centric expac yet

[Osmeric]

Everyone here is also forgetting that in WoD they tried to funnel people into raiding normal modes via the flex system and nerfing lfr, look how that turned out in the most raid centric expac yet

The devs foolishly bumped up the difficulty of N HM vs. Flex SoO (at intended gear levels). Had N HM (and N BRF) been at the same tuning level as Flex SoO I think the losses would have been lower.

[Egregious]

Lol, no it doesn't.

[Stormspellz]

No it doesn't, they can fill the same niche of LFR without deluding the actual raid content.

[primalmatter]

Unless LFR gear (or some tangible reward from LFR) is worth getting, LFR will be pointless beyond running it once.

I think it was clear that the reward for LFR in WoD was too low to get people to run it, and I'm sure they lost some subs because of that. It was useful mostly for the legendary chain and (very slightly) for VP.

In ordinary raiding, maxing out your gear from a difficulty level is more likely to mean you go to the next difficulty level. With LFR in WoD I don't think that happened as much. So we might see them toning down the difficulty of normal mode to be more like SoO Flex. If Normal becomes a natural pug mode then there will be a natural progression path from LFR => Normal mode pugs => Guild-oriented raid teams.

That still turns the entire world quest system into a joke though does it not?

It seems like once again it will revert back to raid or die. While I agree lfr needs some kind of reward perhaps it should be below garrison sets that require such tasks as killing every dungeon boss, gaining rep, and gather resources?

[melodramocracy]

It's kind of a cop out, especially when you factor in the idea that raiding hadn't changed much at all for about 7 years of this games existence. Give folks a reasonable pre-raid gearing path, make introductory bosses actually introductory, and you'd have a scenario where LFR wouldn't be needed much at all.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

That still turns the entire world quest system into a joke though does it not?

It seems like once again it will revert back to raid or die. While I agree lfr needs some kind of reward perhaps it should be below garrison sets that require such tasks as killing every dungeon boss, gaining rep, and gather resources?

They could still progress through the legendary quest and gear on par with normal raid mode gear could come from reputation vendors like every other expansion beside warlords.

[primalmatter]

They could still progress through the legendary quest and gear on par with normal raid mode gear could come from reputation vendors like every other expansion beside warlords.

I suppose they could it just seems... well kind of like a waste. Here you have world content with a story drawn out quest objectives and a rewarding world and it seems most of it will once again be consumed by lfr...

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

It's kind of a cop out, especially when you factor in the idea that raiding hadn't changed much at all for about 7 years of this games existence. Give folks a reasonable pre-raid gearing path, make introductory bosses actually introductory, and you'd have a scenario where LFR wouldn't be needed much at all.

Looking for raid allows players who would have never raided to use the raiding gear path which is something they wouldn't have before. You're suggestion doesn't really replace it and I am pretty sure this the main reason blizzard keeps looking for raid around.

[SoulSoBreezy]

While a valid point, I don't think anybody could argue that WoD almost forced players into raids since nearly all signs pointed to them being the expansion's main focal point.

I do agree. I'm just keeping my scope narrow and on topic, but shhh =)

[HuxNeva]

I assume this is the source of OP as none are listed. http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...Tweets-DLC-439

That is correct. The percentages I used are 'defeated at least 1 boss in ...'

[Kallisto]

No, its wasn't like that before LFR.

Before LFR you had raids with reused assets. One - two boss instances. Very few people actually going into raids and a group of investors that want to know where their money is being spent.

The latter 2 are important here. If investors are seeing that 1-2% are seeing what their money paid for they are going to demand that money go elsewhere. Now I don't mind more open world stuff made but at the same time how are you going to have bosses that are not zerged so much they become tank and spank lag fests if you don't have raids. You think Mythic Archimonde or Heroic Garrosh or many other bosses could exist without them?

[HuxNeva]

raid finder do not pays for raid development (raid existed before LFR), it however justifies creation of larger raids.

I agree with this, as I have stated in other comments. I just object tot he 'there would be no raids if it were not for LFR'. Also, participation of 40%+ in non-LFR raiding to me is not 'minority' content.

[Sansnom]

Them claiming something doesn't mean they are right as well.

That depends on what the context on what they are claiming.

If you referring to your post that that Blizzard claims WoD is the best expansion ever, that is a subjective claim.

However, I was referring to the post Blizzards LFR justify the continuing focus on raids as the primary end game content, that I believe that is right. You can always dispute this however your want.

[rda]

Participation figures in current tier raiding are (data from SoO, using current terminology):

LFR: 70%
Normal:40%
Heroic: 25%
Mythic: 10%

The vast majority of people do raids not because they like them, but because raids are the only source of best gear, and because there's not much else to do.

Heck, you are even taking numbers from the end of an expansion when people are dying of boredom and unsubbing in droves. Obviously, they "do" raids too, especially since at the end of an expansion they are on heavy farm with tons of carries available.

Your numbers are invalid, you have no argument.