"We think [Elite] Players deserve better gear" - Kaivax

[Cynge]

I play casually, and will likely only do LFR (perhaps Normal PUGs) in Legion. I like the idea of the tier bonuses in LFR, but if they didn't exist I wouldn't care either. I'll go after the best gear I can get for my play style...if that happens to include Tier Bonuses, great...if not, *shrug*

That said, I find it interesting that the "real" raiders (and I've been one, mind you) take issue with people who play lower difficulties getting gear that might be decent. Item level is an upgrade at each tier, it (along with the non-stat rewards such as achievements, titles, mounts) are the greater reward. They exist in Normal+. The thing I find interesting about this concept is that the Normal+ groups, for the most part, echo their argument as one voice...three levels of raiding all rallying to knock down a fourth.

How about this. The Tier bonuses, the achievements, the titles, the mounts...are awarded only on Mythic. Normal and Heroic are lesser raiders, and therefore shouldn't be entitled to the same rewards that the Mythic players get. If you are a Normal or Heroic raider and disagree with this...then it's really about people beneath YOU not getting anything that makes YOU feel special. (But I need the Tier bonus to progress in my Normal/Heroic raid....right, because the fights couldn't be tuned around your lack of a bonus.)

As for the "I don't want to feel forced to do LFR" argument, I can understand that...and that is actually a valid argument. The fix to that is (as others have said) make LFR flagged gear not work with the Normal+ gear for set bonuses...and/or just make it share a lock out with the Normal+ raids. You either raid LFR for the week, or you raid Normal+

[shoegazing]

ITT: raiders with no PvP experience talk about how better PvPers should get better gear, despite the fact that the better PvPers say they don't want a gear advantage when they already have a skill advantage

btw, I was the OP from the thread on WoW forums that got the Blue response, and I'm rolling my eyes at all of you because you are completely missing the point

[Granyala]

What do you think about the recent blue post essentially saying "We think [Elite] players deserve better gear?"

Not much to discuss really.
People doing the hardest of the hard stuff deserve to be properly rewarded.
After all, lets be honest: 95% of all gamers need some hard incentive besides "climb the mountain because it's there".

That being said: They need to pay attention that Mythic raiders don't outclass other players just because of their gear.
Having an edge is okay.
Doing 2x the output because of itemlevel scaling is way over the top.

In PvP I disagree. Gear in PvP should be visuals only. PvP is about fighting and testing your skill against another human being, not facerolling "newbs" in crap gear.

[shoegazing]

Not much to discuss really.
People doing the hardest of the hard stuff deserve to be properly rewarded.
After all, lets be honest: 95% of all gamers need some hard incentive besides "climb the mountain because it's there".

That being said: They need to pay attention that Mythic raiders don't outclass other players just because of their gear.
Having an edge is okay.
Doing 2x the output because of itemlevel scaling is way over the top.

In PvP I disagree. Gear in PvP should be visuals only. PvP is about fighting and testing your skill against another human being, not facerolling "newbs" in crap gear.

speak for yourself

gladiator doesn't currently reward any character power upgrades that aren't available to a 1200 rated player, and yet people are still pushing for 3k rating and rank 1 titles in WoD.

maybe you PvE chumps have an attitude of "well I'm not going to do it if there isn't any reward" but in PvP we play the game because playing the game is fun. we just want to have a level playing field for everyone

[Sylreick]

After seeing the abomination that WoD LFR turned into, I've actually changed my stance. I believe set bonuses are fine dropping in LFR, still wish sets had different models (not saying make LFR gear look like green gear, though...). Set bonuses often make or break a spec during a particular patch, and it's not like LFR is difficult to run, so it'd be nice to shore up the bonuses you need until you can manage an upgrade in normal+. The only issue I have is with the RNG aspect to trinkets, and the fact that LFR trinkets can be so much of a boost over previous tier ones simply by the mechanics of it. That coupled with the fact that it is even less likely to see a decent trinket drop in any difficulty and you get the feeling of continually running the content long after you'd like (I'd say this is less noticeable from tier pieces).

- - - Updated - - -

speak for yourself

gladiator doesn't currently reward any character power upgrades that aren't available to a 1200 rated player, and yet people are still pushing for 3k rating and rank 1 titles in WoD.

maybe you PvE chumps have an attitude of "well I'm not going to do it if there isn't any reward" but in PvP we play the game because playing the game is fun. we just want to have a level playing field for everyone

You even read the last line they wrote, in your own quote there?

[Granyala]

gladiator doesn't currently reward any character power upgrades that aren't available to a 1200 rated player, and yet people are still pushing for 3k rating and rank 1 titles in WoD.

maybe you PvE chumps have an attitude of "well I'm not going to do it if there isn't any reward" but in PvP we play the game because playing the game is fun.

Nice contradiction there, mate. Not all rewards need to be in the domain of character power.
Unique visuals and titles can be just as strong a motivator.

Also, PvE is fundamentally different compared to PvP. Suffice it to say: It's not FUN in itself to wipe 500x on a boss.
Sure it's fun to finally down it, but the process to get there is tedious and often very frustrating work.

[Tharkkun]

If people actually wanted to see the content, and not just click an "i win" button, they could through the group finder. There would spring up more raid leaders, however inexperienced they are to form flex normal groups and more people would raid normal - mythic as a result.

How come you pretend that people are not willing to put in a little more effort to see the content if thats the only way they will be able to see the content? News flash, player sub decline didn't start happening in great force until LFR was launched.

Then why isn't it happening now? All the tools are there for people to lead the entire playerbase into the hardest difficulty. Because there are bad players.

If it was easy to rise up to the challenge then wouldn't everyone be the next Tom Brady? Everyone who wanted to play basketball should be able to become as good as Michael Jordan was right?

No, it doesn't work that way. The same applies to video games. It doesn't matter how much you think you can train players to be better, some will never reach that point.

[xuros]

Then why does legions lfr gear have real set bonuses?

Now to get on topic I'm not going to disagree at all about elite players getting gear. With the mythic+ set up (and assuming blizzard can pull it off) gear concerns shouldn't be night and day like in WoD. Compare a normal geared raider (we'll use a pally) with Bis gear and then compare a lfr raider with bis gear.

A huge differnce. While there should be a power gap the gap should never be that big like in WoD.

Even with the normal tier set bonuses they are vastly inferior to the mythic versions due to the much much lower stat allocation.

[Shiandra]

Speaking as a progressive raider in my term as a WoW player, I very much like the idea of a smaller chasm to cross. My guild wasn’t by any means the biggest or the best of the best, but we were successful in Cata because the gear gap wasn’t all that big. MoP came out and it had a huge learning curve for us, which in the end caused a lot of festering and we broke up.

What I think the ‘higher than you’ snobs seem to forget, did you guys not think that now that LFR is even OUT that it does help make more raiders from people? True, everyone can say now that THIER guild has raiders, maybe not the best, but now everyone can raid. Its not like six guilds per faction per server are ‘mighty raiders’ anymore. I think this ‘I wanna be special again’ mentality is stemming from the fact they can’t claim they are the only fish in a pond anymore. Face it, you look down on those who aren’t ‘oh so hardcore’ because you just ain’t special anymore.

They might not have the same drives or the same pace or even the same skill, but everyone can dip their toes into raiding. Get over yourselves and just roll with it. I raided with my guild because that was just something all of us could do. I kept raiding because I loved it, not because I was after the gear., I did it cuz I like taking down huge boss monsters. I think you lot lost sight of merely doing it cuz you could, not cuz you wanna have your shoes licked by those that didn’t rush through content to sit for months complaining you are bored.

You high tier people whine and complain, but for what?

Anyways, the bonuses on gear is a good thing imo, I hope it helps people have more fun

[Nubulous]

Not much to discuss really.
People doing the hardest of the hard stuff deserve to be properly rewarded.
After all, lets be honest: 95% of all gamers need some hard incentive besides "climb the mountain because it's there".

That being said: They need to pay attention that Mythic raiders don't outclass other players just because of their gear.
Having an edge is okay.
Doing 2x the output because of itemlevel scaling is way over the top.

In PvP I disagree. Gear in PvP should be visuals only. PvP is about fighting and testing your skill against another human being, not facerolling "newbs" in crap gear.

The only reason the ILVL got so out of hand is because Blizzard refuses to just have LFR and one other difficulty. When you have 4 different raid difficulties the ilvl bloat is going to get out of hand quick.

Ive been outspoken against LFR but if they changed it to the BC system of only one difficulty and added LFR that is more difficult than current WOD, that IMO would be perfect for raiding. I think I would put this difficulty inbetween what heroic and mythic is right now. If people arent good enough for it tough crap there is LFR to "see" the content.

[Dilbon]

In a perfect world everyone would eventually have the same quality of gear, better players would just get it faster.

[Renedric]

Effort = Reward ?? Who would've thought!

[Idoru]

In a perfect world everyone would eventually have the same quality of gear, better players would just get it faster.

That's why I (still) like Diablo 3.

[Deleted]

Unless I'm forgetting something they do get better gear, right? The harder the difficulty, the better the stats.

Aren't set bonuses more about collecting parts of a set I.E getting lucky drops and whatnot rather than defeating difficult bosses?

Mythic raiders and LFR ''raiders'' are both slaves to RNG.

[Xcruiser]

The whole idea of using gear from within a lower difficulty of raid to clear a higher difficulty of that same dungeon is a parody of what gear progression used to be. It's part of the reason why a new raid was so exciting before -- killing bosses with gear from the previous tier felt like the player was at more of a disadvantage and, upon successfully completing the encounter, the player would be rewarded with a fresh new item with a new name, new appearance (with an aesthetic in line with the current raid), and a nice increase in stats. Now, if we are to buy into the "extra content" we get from progressing from LFR -> Normal -> Heroic -> Mythic, our gear improves while the numbers (health, damage, etc.) increase, and it's essentially retreading the same steps.

Fix: One raiding difficulty (tuned to Heroic with the extras Mythic provides). Alternate avenues of progression (Mythic Dungeons, difficult solo experience, etc.). End the madness.

[Kelimbror]

The whole idea of using gear from within a lower difficulty of raid to clear a higher difficulty of that same dungeon is a parody of what gear progression used to be.

Yeah, you know...just like using dungeon gear of a lower difficulty to clear a higher difficulty dungeon or even a raid tier is a parody of...wait, no, it has always been this way. I will give you the fact that getting new set bonuses is more exiting than simply increasing iLvl, but there have been raid tiers where people intentionally kept lower set bonuses b/c mathematically they yielded more dps.

The issue I have is pretending that this is inherently tied to the notion of no set bonuses on LFR gear and the premise of this thread in general. If by logic you say that people performing X activity at Y level deserve better gear, then the same is true of all levels of raiding. Having proper set bonuses denotes that this is raiding, not dungeons. Removing them from LFR gear was a gigantic mistake which created divides in the raiding population and decreased the success of people having options to move up or down and still raid.

Obviously higher level raids should yield higher gear, both from an effort and gear progression stance. But everything else should go back to the way it was in Mists. You raid, you get raid gear. Ilvl determined by difficulty mode. Simple, clean, fair. The argument that they 'have' to do LFR to complete their set just shows they want to do anything in their power to be more successful at raiding. Great. That's why they'll get to have set bonuses first. To think that you would complain that you have to do more content, especially when it is trivial, to try and make yourself even better at hard attempts is silly. You should be begging for them to put it in to increase the success rate of attempts in mythic.

[Lanthal]

As a proud LfR-scrub, the only reason i want tier sets is because Blizzard has the annoying habit to fix spec flaws with the tier set bonuses, so if playing your spec the way Blizz designed/balanced it is locked behind a 4-piece bonus and a trinket, then i want access to those, i might not strictly need it, but one thing i feel my 15 euros a month entitles me to is to play the fun version of my character spec.

Your 15 euros a month entitles you to as many lvl one characters as you want in as many class/faction/race combination as you want on multiple servers if you want. Everything beyond that is what you do with it.

[Zemuron]

There's no way you aren't trolling. If you aren't, this is the worst idea I've ever heard and go take your pay to win shit somewhere else, no offense.

You don't think pay to win will happen, but it will. Blizzard wants $. People are willing to pay $. Id pay at least 60$ for top tier gear so I don't have to waste a bunch of time getting it, and then can enjoy the game at a high level. At the same time, hardcore players are just paying their 12$ a month, or even worse yet, playing off tokens they are buying from the AH with in game gold... Who do you think is more important to blizz? the guy paying $$ for some gear? or the hardcore player who has years worth of free game time in the form of AH tokens?

[Lanthal]

I play casually, and will likely only do LFR (perhaps Normal PUGs) in Legion. I like the idea of the tier bonuses in LFR, but if they didn't exist I wouldn't care either. I'll go after the best gear I can get for my play style...if that happens to include Tier Bonuses, great...if not, *shrug*

That said, I find it interesting that the "real" raiders (and I've been one, mind you) take issue with people who play lower difficulties getting gear that might be decent. Item level is an upgrade at each tier, it (along with the non-stat rewards such as achievements, titles, mounts) are the greater reward. They exist in Normal+. The thing I find interesting about this concept is that the Normal+ groups, for the most part, echo their argument as one voice...three levels of raiding all rallying to knock down a fourth.

How about this. The Tier bonuses, the achievements, the titles, the mounts...are awarded only on Mythic. Normal and Heroic are lesser raiders, and therefore shouldn't be entitled to the same rewards that the Mythic players get. If you are a Normal or Heroic raider and disagree with this...then it's really about people beneath YOU not getting anything that makes YOU feel special. (But I need the Tier bonus to progress in my Normal/Heroic raid....right, because the fights couldn't be tuned around your lack of a bonus.)

As for the "I don't want to feel forced to do LFR" argument, I can understand that...and that is actually a valid argument. The fix to that is (as others have said) make LFR flagged gear not work with the Normal+ gear for set bonuses...and/or just make it share a lock out with the Normal+ raids. You either raid LFR for the week, or you raid Normal+

Actually I don't have a problem with normal or heroic not getting the same gear or achieves as mythic... Its harder so the loot should be better and the achieves should be cooler...thats the point of increased difficulty.

[Chaelexi]

You don't think pay to win will happen, but it will. Blizzard wants $. People are willing to pay $. Id pay at least 60$ for top tier gear so I don't have to waste a bunch of time getting it, and then can enjoy the game at a high level. At the same time, hardcore players are just paying their 12$ a month, or even worse yet, playing off tokens they are buying from the AH with in game gold... Who do you think is more important to blizz? the guy paying $$ for some gear? or the hardcore player who has years worth of free game time in the form of AH tokens?

What you don't realize is this person is not playing for free. Someone is paying more for that monthly token than the monthly sub fee. They make more money off of it. As for pay to win, it is the kiss of death to an MMO, if you really want to pay for the gear go to top end guilds they sell runs all the time. Pay to win ends up driving the top raiders away from the game, the player base gets watered down because all of the theory crafters, guild writers and streamers go elsewhere. Blizz makes more from people playing for 5 months getting that gear than someone paying for it and then leaving because there is nothing left to do.