Heads Roll at Baylor University Over Sexual-Assault Reports

[Canpinter]

and this is all null and void when a school like Baylor doesnt even bother with a process. The process failed, as it was completely ignored in favor of "football = win at all costs"

Seriously, get back to Baylor.

one college failing to purse justice does not justify others doing so overzealous, baylor can go fuck itself

[Berengil]

and this is all null and void when a school like Baylor doesnt even bother with a process. The process failed, as it was completely ignored in favor of "football = win at all costs"

Seriously, get back to Baylor.

I'll grant you that often sports-intensive schools get their priorities waaaaaaaay the hell out of whack. I've always thought the wedding of academic education to athletics to be nonsensical.

[Milchshake]

There's some damning passages in the report.

Looks like the Baylor administration tried to to intimidate complainants.

“Actions by a University administrator within [Baylor University Police Department] and an administrator within an academic program contributed to, and in some instances, accommodated or created a hostile environment, rather than taking action to eliminate a hostile environment,”

Or the Baylor athletic department tried to sweep everything under the rug by "investigating itself".

“football coaches or staff met directly with a complainant and/or a parent of a complainant and did not report the misconduct.”

“Football staff conducted their own untrained internal inquiries, outside of policy, which improperly discredited complainants and denied them the right to a fair, impartial and informed investigation, interim measures or processes promised under University policy,” the report found.
The Bears allegedly operated “an internal system of discipline,” completely separate from the university’s protocols for dealing with sexual assault. The report called the football program’s handling “fundamentally inconsistent with the mindset required for effective Title IX implementation.” Coaches, staff members and administrators relied on “individual judgment” instead of the law. It resulted, according to the report, in “conduct being ignored.”

[Deleted]

I've already explained several times why this is a grossly incorrect way to view the principle. You can be arrested and jailed for crimes before you're convicted, because you aren't actually deemed innocent in the way you're arguing.

No, you are still innocent - And its literally the only way to view the principle - You start innocent, the courts decline to do anything (like if they cant reach a verdict) - You remain innocent.

Not sure why you think that's much of a contradiction of my point. Fact remains, it's still not a trial.

Yes, and i have consistently used 'trial' for that very reason.

Do I think expulsion is reasonable if someone rapes another student? Absolutely.

As we have established, even if the definition of rape used is one so vague and broad as to cover hugging?

So, another word you want to use incorrectly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism

A system in which non court can judge someone guilty of something that is not actually is a crime - This is like if a sharia court were to find someone guilty of being raped - Its patently fucking unjust, and clearly an authoritarian system -

Authoritarianism also tends to embrace the informal and unregulated exercise of political power, a leadership that is "self-appointed and even if elected cannot be displaced by citizens' free choice among competitors," the arbitrary deprivation of civil liberties, and little tolerance for meaningful opposition

Protecting the freedoms of the universities is not "totalitarianism". Come the hell on.

Totalitarianism is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible

If they want to decide that unwanted hugging is unacceptable and grounds for expulsion, then that's what goes at that school.

yeah - Asserting the ability to expel for unwanted hugging - Totally not totalitarian.

[Kapadons]

and this is all null and void when a school like Baylor doesnt even bother with a process. The process failed, as it was completely ignored in favor of "football = win at all costs"

Seriously, get back to Baylor.

I think the worst part for Baylor moving forward with any sanctions will be that this isn't even a "head in the sand" case like Paterno could claim.

So what is appropriate punishment? Everyone involved should be out of a job, not just reassigned. Football team should have some scholarships revoked, banned from post season play for 3-4 years. And they probably need a thorough review of the policies moving forward.

Should the victims be given reparations from the people that covered it up or ignored it?

[Crissi]

one college failing to purse justice does not justify others doing so overzealous, baylor can go fuck itself

of course it doesnt justify it, but Baylor essentially just justified why Title IX exists.

[Deleted]

I think some people here are under the impression there is a widespread problem of colleges kicking people out simply because one student said they were raped. Colleges do internal investigations all the time. Some girl can't just say " that guy raped me" and they immediately kick the kid out. there has to be some sort of corroborating evidence.

Are you fucking kiding me?
There are cases, where the 'victim' explicitly says 'I was NOT raped' and the guy was still kicked out.

If you’re thinking there has to be some gray area here, that’s simply not the case. Student-athlete Grant Neal was expelled from Colorado State University-Pueblo for allegedly sexually assaulting his girlfriend, a student and female athletic trainer at the school. But Neal was never so much as accused of sexual misconduct as his girlfriend explicitly stated over and over that their relationship was consensual, reports Reason. "I'm fine and I wasn't raped,” she explicitly stated.

Much just.

[Crissi]

I think the worst part for Baylor moving forward with any sanctions will be that this isn't even a "head in the sand" case like Paterno could claim.

So what is appropriate punishment? Everyone involved should be out of a job, not just reassigned. Football team should have some scholarships revoked, banned from post season play for 3-4 years. And they probably need a thorough review of the policies moving forward.

Should the victims be given reparations from the people that covered it up or ignored it?

I pretty much agree with your suggestions. Considering how close they were to going into the Playoffs the last 2 years, that'll definately hurt but football should be their last concern right now

Id actually even support Baylor paying the victims whose complaints were ignored / brushed off / covered up too, since it was an institutional problem and not just 1 or 2 guys.

[May90]

No, I'm defending the freedoms of these universities, to make these kinds of decisions.

Yes, but here we go back to the paradox similar to "tolerance of intolerance": does freedom to make anti-freedom decisions lead to freedom?

For example, would you defend the right of a university to include in its code of honor the demand that a student has to first use the internal university mechanisms of dealing with rape accusations, before going to the police - otherwise the student can be expelled? As a private organization, university has the right to do so - don't you think such a right can lead to authoritarianism within the university in this regard?

My personal stance is this: crime is up to solely the system of justice to deal with. University should provide education and research opportunities, not figure out who raped who. It can provide an optional alternative to the legal procedure, but it cannot and should not override it - and punish those who still follow the legal channels.

There are cases, where the 'victim' explicitly says 'I was NOT raped' and the guy was still kicked out.

There are also cases where a meteorite destroyed someone's property. Doesn't mean it is a widespread problem.

[Kapadons]

Are you fucking kiding me?
There are cases, where the 'victim' explicitly says 'I was NOT raped' and the guy was still kicked out.

Much just.

There was A case. not cases. And he will more than likely win a lawsuit.

[Deleted]

...which improperly discredited complainants and denied them the right to a fair, impartial and informed investigation, interim measures or processes promised under University policy,” the report found.

Fun fact - The accused is not entitled to those things.

Coaches, staff members and administrators relied on “individual judgment” instead of the law. It resulted, according to the report, in “conduct being ignored.”

Instead of the law? - That's Cool - I was under the impression that this had nothing to do with law when the accused went to the 'reasonably fair' hearing.

[Wells]

Something about it being Ken Starr makes this so fascinating.

[Deleted]

There was A case. not cases. And he will more than likely win a lawsuit.

This isn't one case that may have undercut you point - Its a case that clearly shows that the goal in these 'hearings' is to expel the guy regardless of actual reality, as that's in the universities best interest.
Its a fundamentally unjust and flawed system.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics...-justice-case/
Another bastardisation of 'justice' Including a victim, convinced by others she was raped when she walked into the dorm room of a guy, who was passed out levels of drunk - In any sane universe, She is the rapist, if anyone is.

[AndaliteBandit]

because its guilty until proven innocent when Universities deal with it
much easier then going to the police / legal system

He says in a thread about a university that did the exact opposite.

[Pangean]

Fun fact - The accused is not entitled to those things.

Instead of the law? - That's Cool - I was under the impression that this had nothing to do with law when the accused went to the 'reasonably fair' hearing.

Er... Title IX is the law they are talking about. You know the one that says there has to be a fair process to deal with these issues. Sort of the opposite of an individual making that decision. Which of course is what the snippet of the report said that you cribbed from to make your nonsense point.

"The report called the football program’s handling “fundamentally inconsistent with the mindset required for effective Title IX implementation.” Coaches, staff members and administrators relied on “individual judgment” instead of the law. "

[Endus]

This isn't one case that may have undercut you point - Its a case that clearly shows that the goal in these 'hearings' is to expel the guy regardless of actual reality, as that's in the universities best interest.

That isn't how single examples work. They do not demonstrate a systemic problem. Particularly when we're in a thread started by the opposite problem.

[Vyxn]

That isn't how single examples work. They do not demonstrate a systemic problem. Particularly when we're in a thread started by the opposite problem.

I will tell you why it fucking matters. why a university should abide by the same standards as a court of law because getting expelled for a sexual assault holds the same weight brings on the same stigma the same scarlet letter as if some one was convicted of sexual assault in a court of law

when you go apply for a job and that expulsion for sexual assault is on your record it might as well be a conviction from a court of law. the employer will look at it as being the same because people believe that a university would use the same standard to expel some one as the standard of proof they use in a court of law

[Barbariangreataxe]

I will tell you why it fucking matters. why a university should abide by the same standards as a court of law because getting expelled for a sexual assault holds the same weight brings on the same stigma the same scarlet letter as if some one was convicted of sexual assault in a court of law

when you go apply for a job and that expulsion for sexual assault is on your record it might as well be a conviction from a court of law. the employer will look at it as being the same because people believe that a university would use the same standard to expel some one as the standard of proof they use in a court of law

He doesn't care. That much should be obvious by now.

[Endus]

I will tell you why it fucking matters. why a university should abide by the same standards as a court of law because getting expelled for a sexual assault holds the same weight brings on the same stigma the same scarlet letter as if some one was convicted of sexual assault in a court of law

Getting expelled doesn't get you imprisoned for months or years nor does it get you labelled a felon forevermore. So no. Not even remotely close.

when you go apply for a job and that expulsion for sexual assault is on your record it might as well be a conviction from a court of law. the employer will look at it as being the same because people believe that a university would use the same standard to expel some one as the standard of proof they use in a court of law

I'm not really seeing the big issue with rapists struggling to find employers who'll take them on. You seem to be presuming that all these guys are innocent, which is a pretty damned ridiculous position to take. Yes, getting expelled looks bad on your record. It should look bad. I'm really not seeing the issue, unless you're arguing that a little rapey behaviour in college shouldn't ruin a guy's life. To which I'd counter, "Yeah, it should".

[Kapadons]

I'm really not seeing the issue, unless you're arguing that a little rapey behaviour in college shouldn't ruin a guy's life. To which I'd counter, "Yeah, it should".

Holy dogshit batman. I normally ignore your mindless drivel, but this one tips the meter into the red. What an asinine position to take.