Preach Ranks Legion Tanks. (Tanking in Legion is Bad?)

[TheMediator]

Taking as little damage as possible is obviously in the tank job description.

What does this even mean though?

If you mitigate 10% of the damage or 20% of the damage of incoming damage (a 100% increase in performance) amounts to something like a 12% difference in healing required on one tank. Even if up to half a raid's damage taken is tank healing, and a single tank's uptime is half the time... the difference between a mouth breaking tank and a professional tank can be made up for by a single healer having a 2-pc set or a few item level increases. Do you see how fucking broken that is as a system?

If healers don't meet the HPS requirement of the fight, the raid dies. If DPS don't meet the DPS requirement of the fight, the raid dies. If a tank is bad, healers have to heal very slightly more?

Fuck the old school, Wildstar style tanking system where tanks exist simply to hold threat and have enough HP to not be 1-shot by mechanics and where you only push buttons because you don't have anything else to do doing while you act as a living bob the punching bag. Fuck that system.

Since it may be too late in the development cycle for Blizzard to actually fix this shit, I can only hope that the tank drought is so severe that subscriptions are impacted to the point that the expansion after Legion sees a return to the current glorious era of tanking.

[Echo of Soul]

as long as the damage you heal is functionally equivalent there is no difference, no. There's no difference between a tank that mitigates significant damage to keep themselves alive for significant amounts of time (warrior) and a tank who baseline takes nearly as much pure damage as a dps but heals it back (dk).

This is why DK has been under fire a lot by - forgive me for the harsh wording - people who have no clue what they're talking about regarding tanks. They read the HPS on the meters and don't understand that this comparable to other tanks absorbs, DR, and similar. It's LFR level comprehension and misunderstanding.

Some mitigations is always fine, no matter if it's by heals, absorbs or just plain defense. But no tank should be so strong that they don't require healing at all. You're there to be the protector of your group, the one that takes the beating because everyone else would die. If a tank does let's say 30% healing (or equivalent) and 30% DPS of those dedicated to those roles that's more than fine. When they get up to 100% or more I think you've stepped out of the tank role and into the one man army role.

[Raiju]

Some mitigations is always fine, no matter if it's by heals, absorbs or just plain defense. But no tank should be so strong that they don't require healing at all. You're there to be the protector of your group, the one that takes the beating because everyone else would die. If a tank does let's say 30% healing (or equivalent) and 30% DPS of those dedicated to those roles that's more than fine. When they get up to 100% or more I think you've stepped out of the tank role and into the one man army role.

Please point out a non-trivial encounter where a tank doesn't need a healer - in other words mythic progress. Until it's actually a reasonable argument to say "tanks don't need healers in mythic" it's just a strawman.

If a tank does 30% mitigation and 30% dps you'd be inclined to make use of tanky dps instead, because those numbers are extremely low and just plain not worth risking unless you need that 30% extra on every single melee hit (hasn't existed since sarth 3rd where surprise surprise we actually used pets to tank over most tanks)

[Deleted]

i got around to watching preacgaming's video about tanking.. wauw he knows how to be a real buzzkill and making people almost feel depressed..
First 35 mins? of the 52'ish clip was moaning how tanking was bad and how they destroyed his class or something..
He also made me feel that his opinion is everyones opinion, i think its ba, so should you.
Glad ive found other vids about tanking comparision that actually had a bit of value and wasnt as biased.

I for one am looking forward tanking in Legion once more.

[Echocho]

i got around to watching preacgaming's video about tanking.. wauw he knows how to be a real buzzkill and making people almost feel depressed..
First 35 mins? of the 52'ish clip was moaning how tanking was bad and how they destroyed his class or something..
He also made me feel that his opinion is everyones opinion, i think its ba, so should you.
Glad ive found other vids about tanking comparision that actually had a bit of value and wasnt as biased.

I for one am looking forward tanking in Legion once more.

Yeah he's like a child who's had his toys taken away. He wants to do as much DPS as a dedicated damage dealer while outhealing all the healers, mitigating most of the damage and holding aggro on everything.

As with everything it needs to be reasonable. A tank loosing 50% of his HP from a hit that would oneshot everyone else in the raid is fine. If he's able to heal himself up to 100% before the next hit without the help of a healer it's not.

Preach have always had a hard time with other peoples point of view. When he claims a spec is fun I usually stay away from them because that usually means extremely complicated gameplay and setup for "big dick damage".

[Vestig3]

Tanks should be depended on healers the most, a little self healing and absorbing is ok but not too much and i find it funny that many new tanks think that being to heal yourself is normal while its not even if it has been going like that since mop.

[TheMediator]

Tanks should be depended on healers the most, a little self healing and absorbing is ok but not too much and i find it funny that many new tanks think that being to heal yourself is normal while its not even if it has been going like that since mop.

It's the way it's worked for almost half of WoW's lifetime but it isn't normal? K.

[oplawlz]

Please point out a non-trivial encounter where a tank doesn't need a healer - in other words mythic progress. Until it's actually a reasonable argument to say "tanks don't need healers in mythic" it's just a strawman.

Did you really just suggest that the only content a tank should need a healer for is that which only ~1% of the population participates in? Whatever you're on, dude, it's severely limiting your capacity to reason.

[Raiju]

Did you really just suggest that the only content a tank should need a healer for is that which only ~1% of the population participates in? Whatever you're on, dude, it's severely limiting your capacity to reason.

Yes, because it's well tuned content. Likewise someone who is at appropriate skill/gear level for HC needs a healer, someone at appropriate skill/gear level for normal needs a healer. Below that and you straight up don't need a tank at all.

Common sense, really. It's sad it's not common at all around here.

[Deliverer]

Did you really just suggest that the only content a tank should need a healer for is that which only ~1% of the population participates in? Whatever you're on, dude, it's severely limiting your capacity to reason.

as Raiju said if you do content when you are at the appropriate ilvl you need a healer.

Mythic dungeons 670 ilvl
normal hfc 685/690 ilvl no legendary ring
heroic hfc 695/700 ilvl no leg ring
mythic 715 ilvl

any ilvl above this + legendary ring and you are already overgearing the place.

[oplawlz]

Yes, because it's well tuned content. Likewise someone who is at appropriate skill/gear level for HC needs a healer, someone at appropriate skill/gear level for normal needs a healer. Below that and you straight up don't need a tank at all.

Common sense, really. It's sad it's not common at all around here.

That is probably the least intelligent thing I've read on these forums - congratulations.

[Vestig3]

It's the way it's worked for almost half of WoW's lifetime but it isn't normal? K.

And it worked aswell before they gave tanks the self healing.

[DisposableHero]

And it worked aswell before they gave tanks the self healing.

Tank healing works better as tank gameplay than it ever did as healer gameplay, because having your performance directly beholden to other members of the raid sucks.

The only reason tanking in vanilla and TBC (where defenses were largely passive and tank self healing didn't really exist) wasn't as boring as watching paint dry, is because there was a threat minigame that required you to have more than a pulse to be good at it. They decided that having DPS performance being directly beholden to the tanks ability to generate threat was bad gameplay (omg imagine that) and so they removed it. If they go back to tank survival being healer gameplay, there is very little gameplay left for tanks.

[madmonarch]

Tanks need more healer attention => dps have less healer attention => dps die more frequently. LMAO.

Now seriously. The core of the game is to have fun and perform (do something). Dps perform in dealing damage (they DO damage), healers perform in keeping raid alive (they DO healing), tanks perform at staying alive (the DO mitigate or heal themselves) or keeping threat as of before (they DO damage to generate threat). They removed threat so dps could burst right out of the pull, giving active mitigation. Now they nerf AM to the floor and what will tanks DO? Just stand there?

[shanthi]

If they go back to tank survival being healer gameplay, there is very little gameplay left for tanks.

Tank gameplay should be reducing damage as much as possible (in addition to things like proper positioning of boss and adds, picking up adds, taunt swaps, etc, but those are more minor). The core gameplay should be reducing and smoothing incoming damage, not also healing themselves back up. Skillful tanks should be significantly easier to heal, bad tanks should be significantly tougher to keep alive. Tanks should need healers, but healers should need good tanks.

[Taeldorian]

So if their damage is irrelevant, they have no self-reliance, no control over anything, meaningless rotations that both don't generate resources or do any damage, etc, etc, etc... Why would anyone want to play a tank? Where is the fun in any of that?

On topic, I am pretty sad about Paladins. Been a Paladin tank since I started playing, everything I have ever unlocked is on my Paladin... Hope it all works out in the end because if Paladin stays as uninspired as it is, I am probably just going to quit... Don't want to start over on another character and lose eight years of completionism/collections/reputations, etc.

I never understand you and others like this. The rotation is a bit boring in PvE for sure (quite the opposite in pvp) but why does that mean you can't play it? Paladin's are extremely good tanks so far and will probably be wanted in many raids, some of the fun factor might be missing but that's it. If that is all it takes to get you to abandon 8 years of everything then I don't know what to say to you. I'm not even sure how Holy (paladin) is going to turn out (looks fun so far) but no matter what I'll be maining it. Why? Because just like you I have way to much to lose, a guild to raid with, and a class I love even if the spec is bland.

- - - Updated - - -

i got around to watching preacgaming's video about tanking.. wauw he knows how to be a real buzzkill and making people almost feel depressed..
First 35 mins? of the 52'ish clip was moaning how tanking was bad and how they destroyed his class or something..
He also made me feel that his opinion is everyones opinion, i think its ba, so should you.
Glad ive found other vids about tanking comparision that actually had a bit of value and wasnt as biased.

This. As much as I love Preach he tends to invalidate his "suppose to be unbiased opinion" with his biased opinion. He tends to (accidentally it seems) speak like his opinion is everyone elses opinion. Either way, he does make valid points. I'm not a tank so I can't really comment much though.

[Skarzog]

Please point out a non-trivial encounter where a tank doesn't need a healer - in other words mythic progress. Until it's actually a reasonable argument to say "tanks don't need healers in mythic" it's just a strawman.

I am getting sense that most of this thread is populated by people who have not tanked this entire expansion. You won't get an example because the whole "Tanks didn't need healers" discussion is bullshit. I don't know if months of doing content at 30+ itemlevels beyond what they were designed for has given people a distorted view of tanking this expansion. There were multiple fights where if a tank was not healed on gcd, they would die.

I've tanked on my main for Mythic and my alt for Heroic alt runs this expansion. When I was of proper itemlevel for the content, as in 700 for Heroic HFC and 715 for Mythic, and not in full BiS; there was no way I could survive without external heals. This is pretty easy to verify, just look at the logs for any random guild, Normal, Heroic, or Mythic back around July - December.

Tanks were always beholden to healers to survive, if you didn't get heals, you died, period. However, it was also you job to not get one shot or take so much damage that healers could not keep you up. It was your job to handle your resources and cool downs to achieve this. In Legion you are reduced to a fucking meat shield that holds threat and eats heals. Everything you do feels inconsequential. Its boring and incredibly frustrating.

[Leblue]

I'm very curious where the hyperbole of "tanks not needing a healer" actually has any real ground when you don't outgear content in nearly any group oriented content you do such as dungeons and raids. I see it tossed out quite a bit, but I think a lot of people very quickly have forgotten in WoD that tanks did need somewhat significant amounts of healing, but it was easily covered up by passive healing (like Beacon of Light) and Absorbs which made healing the tank much closer to general raid healing in the end. Sure now a days I chain pull masses in mythic dungeons on live and things are just dandy with my own self healing, but I also terribly outgear the content and that's more of a discussion of the power creep as a whole vs tanks actually being OP.

Tanks being generally in charge of their overall survival is an added layer for tanks to play around. I'm not saying be entirely independent of healers, but I don't understand why you can't have them need roughly similar healing as a dps does in a raidwide damage situation with the option and ability to cover for a less than stellar tank by focusing more heals on them, much as you would a dps who's hugging the fire a bit too hard.

[Deleted]

Tanks should be depended on healers the most, a little self healing and absorbing is ok but not too much and i find it funny that many new tanks think that being to heal yourself is normal while its not even if it has been going like that since mop.

I am half agreeing with that.
I prefer to know that if I play good I can sustain myself longer and make the job of healer easier than being a target dummy that spam abilities, becoming a glass that need to be refilled with heals(water).
And I thank God it was like this in the last few expansions, because if you had a bad healer you were screwed big time before.

If you put almost all the responsibility on healers, it will be like tanking in Vanilla.....boring and frustrating, even more boring for the fact that now threat isn't even a problem anymore.

[I Push Buttons]

I never understand you and others like this. The rotation is a bit boring in PvE for sure (quite the opposite in pvp) but why does that mean you can't play it? Paladin's are extremely good tanks so far and will probably be wanted in many raids, some of the fun factor might be missing but that's it. If that is all it takes to get you to abandon 8 years of everything then I don't know what to say to you. I'm not even sure how Holy (paladin) is going to turn out (looks fun so far) but no matter what I'll be maining it. Why? Because just like you I have way to much to lose, a guild to raid with, and a class I love even if the spec is bland.

This is a video game dude. 99.9% of the reason to play it is to have fun.