Why a Universal Basic Income Will Not Solve Poverty

[Macaquerie]

I’ll tell you why it fucking matters. I am all for my taxes going to help people with their basic necessities of life, but I fucking refuse to pay my taxes so someone can legitimately and intentionally sit on their ass and do nothing. I refuse to pay for someone to take a cruise or go to the movies. I refuse to pay people the amount it takes one person to live, and have them split costs with 8 other people. It’s nothing short of fucking stealing. I work too goddamn hard to make my own way to have people using my fucking money on luxuries. I’m sorry, but that’s a fact, and I’m not alone in this thinking.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we have a consumer economy, which means that all those purchases of unnecessary luxury goods like flatscreens and cruises and, yes even scratch tickets, are the only reason most people have jobs to begin with at all.

[Theodarzna]

Honestly, I am fucking disgusted at some of the shit I read over the last couple of pages. I’m not going to quote anyone individually, because there have been several people posting the same fucking nonsense…

“I would love an UBI so I could work as little as possible and play video games!”
“I would use my UBI to travel more. I would love to go on a cruise!”
“What if people are frugal with their food expenditures? What does it matter if they go to a movie or spend it on something else?”

You people are fucking clowns.

I’ll tell you why it fucking matters. I am all for my taxes going to help people with their basic necessities of life, but I fucking refuse to pay my taxes so someone can legitimately and intentionally sit on their ass and do nothing. I refuse to pay for someone to take a cruise or go to the movies. I refuse to pay people the amount it takes one person to live, and have them split costs with 8 other people. It’s nothing short of fucking stealing. I work too goddamn hard to make my own way to have people using my fucking money on luxuries. I’m sorry, but that’s a fact, and I’m not alone in this thinking.

Just last week, I saw for the first time, an ATM machine that lets you get cash from your SNAP card (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program). She then walked to the front counter and bought scratch tickets with the money. I quite literally witnessed my taxes going to a woman so she could gamble with it. Un-fucking-believable.

You know you could directly quote people to discuss things.

Out of everyone in this thread, the person who stands to see their taxes go up the most is me. I mean, as I said in a previous thread on this topic to an equally offended person, I own a horse that cost me more and is likely more valuable than the average american's life insurance claim. And I put my butt on it and trot about a field with it for idle amusement. If ANYONES taxes are going to go up its me. AND if anyone benefits from the status quo its me. In the current system I have the power, I am the vaunted MAKER, JOB CREATOR! I am the one that gets to bark orders and the people desperate to make rent obey or have to find something else.

[namelessone]

Honestly, I am fucking disgusted at some of the shit I read over the last couple of pages. I’m not going to quote anyone individually, because there have been several people posting the same fucking nonsense…

“I would love an UBI so I could work as little as possible and play video games!”
“I would use my UBI to travel more. I would love to go on a cruise!”
“What if people are frugal with their food expenditures? What does it matter if they go to a movie or spend it on something else?”

You people are fucking clowns.

I’ll tell you why it fucking matters. I am all for my taxes going to help people with their basic necessities of life, but I fucking refuse to pay my taxes so someone can legitimately and intentionally sit on their ass and do nothing. I refuse to pay for someone to take a cruise or go to the movies. I refuse to pay people the amount it takes one person to live, and have them split costs with 8 other people. It’s nothing short of fucking stealing. I work too goddamn hard to make my own way to have people using my fucking money on luxuries. I’m sorry, but that’s a fact, and I’m not alone in this thinking.

Just last week, I saw for the first time, an ATM machine that lets you get cash from your SNAP card (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program). She then walked to the front counter and bought scratch tickets with the money. I quite literally witnessed my taxes going to a woman so she could gamble with it. Un-fucking-believable.

Would you rather they ACTUALLY stole your money? Fun fact, people with addictions won't quit their addictions because they are too expensive, they will do what they always did in this situation, which is turn to crime.

[Eviscero]

Why would 10k go to ALL 300 mil. Americans and not just those who find themselves below the poverty line (by choice or otherwise)?

It's not about making people equal, it's about solving social ills caused by inherent inequality in people's abilities and motivations.

[Poopymonster]

Why would 10k go to ALL 300 mil. Americans and not just those who find themselves below the poverty line (by choice or otherwise)?

It's not about making people equal, it's about solving social ills caused by inherent inequality in people's abilities and motivations.

Because "Fuck you, I got mine" has become somewhere of a model here?

[Kathandira]

Honestly, I am fucking disgusted at some of the shit I read over the last couple of pages. I’m not going to quote anyone individually, because there have been several people posting the same fucking nonsense…

“I would love an UBI so I could work as little as possible and play video games!”
“I would use my UBI to travel more. I would love to go on a cruise!”
“What if people are frugal with their food expenditures? What does it matter if they go to a movie or spend it on something else?”

You people are fucking clowns.

I’ll tell you why it fucking matters. I am all for my taxes going to help people with their basic necessities of life, but I fucking refuse to pay my taxes so someone can legitimately and intentionally sit on their ass and do nothing. I refuse to pay for someone to take a cruise or go to the movies. I refuse to pay people the amount it takes one person to live, and have them split costs with 8 other people. It’s nothing short of fucking stealing. I work too goddamn hard to make my own way to have people using my fucking money on luxuries. I’m sorry, but that’s a fact, and I’m not alone in this thinking.

Just last week, I saw for the first time, an ATM machine that lets you get cash from your SNAP card (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program). She then walked to the front counter and bought scratch tickets with the money. I quite literally witnessed my taxes going to a woman so she could gamble with it. Un-fucking-believable.

hehe, since I know the cruise one was a thing I said. Note this, you too would be able to afford to go on a cruise!

The point I was trying to make, is that if my rent and utilities were paid, I would have more income to spend on things I normally wouldn't be able to. Which of course, all non-essential expenditures are taxed. So me deciding to go on a cruise, would be me contributing to taxes that I currently would not be since I can't afford to spend money on that sort of thing.

In short, Putting back in what you take out.

[Yvaelle]

The people most directly hit would be the upper middle class and wealthy individuals. The wife and I would personally be seeing a loss to our own disposable income as even with the added UBI we'd still be losing money.

Married Filing Jointly -- $250,000/year - Previous Napkin Math Applies:

Taxed 20% on $18,550 or $3710 ($250,000 - $18,550 - $3,710 = $227,440)

Taxed 25% on $75,300 or $18.825 ($227,449 - $75,300 - $18,825 = $133,315)

Taxed 35% on remaining $133,315 or $46,660.25 ($133,315 - $86,654,75 - $46,660.25)

That's a total of $69,195.25 in total taxes. Even if the wife and I still collected UBI as individuals we'd still be out $45,195.25. That's just two people paying enough in taxes to cover almost 4 additional people's UBI while still receiving it ourselves.

Then subtract like $25k for deductions, right? Or are we conveniently ignoring that for some reason I missed?

[Captain N]

Then subtract like $25k for deductions, right? Or are we conveniently ignoring that for some reason I missed?

I kept deductions out of it as I'm sure there would have to be overhauls to how they'd function with a UBI in place. I didn't include them in my previous post about the Family Vs. Single Person either. Not meant to be misleading in any way but a straight comparison with no deductions including the EIC (which I would assume would be removed with UBI)

[Theodarzna]

I conjure thee @Yvaelle to explain to me a bit better an idea I discussed but unfortunately I am not much of an economist,

How much economic activity would become viable if say a single merchant or small business owner did not have to worry about "making a living." off of their businesses? Would the lack of pressure to make a living help or hinder that sort of thing?

[Kathandira]

I conjure thee @Yvaelle to explain to me a bit better an idea I discussed but unfortunately I am not much of an economist,

How much economic activity would become viable if say a single merchant or small business owner did not have to worry about "making a living." off of their businesses? Would the lack of pressure to make a living help or hinder that sort of thing?

Very interesting question. My uneducated guess is that it would vary pending on the individuals greed, or aspirations. But someone with experience with economic history would have a real answer. I'm very intrigued by the potential answer.

[The One Percent]

The middle and lower class in the US are going to have a lot of fun with the leaps in automation coming in the next decade.

[Bodakane]

The meek shall inherit the earth, after all they are the only ones who have children in any significant numbers.

The main oppositions to UBI IMHO are purely the result of Calvanist thinking or a belief that some social good comes from people jumping through hoops for a diminishing pool of jobs just to pay rent and buy groceries is somehow a social good.

IMHO the main reason to be against UBI is that if your a member of middle management or someone of the Walton variety, your power over the masses is reduced. Since they no longer NEED a job for a living, they can pick and choose freely which jobs they want and at what pay they deem acceptable. For those in the managerial sector this would be the ultimate loss of power since the main way bosses keep power is the pressures of knowing their employees need food and housing and cannot practically be assured another source exists.

UBI removes the worst forms of Coercion from the economy, which in a truly free and Libertarian society would be ideal, a structure were you can reasonably make choices.

Exactly.

Unchecked capitalism will eat itself. At some point, a few will win the competition and have all the money. Once that happens, no one will be buying anything and the whole system crumbles. You cannot have a system with no floor and no ceiling. There must be one or the other. Conservatives definitely don't want a ceiling, so fine, then we must have a floor.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, I am fucking disgusted at some of the shit I read over the last couple of pages. I’m not going to quote anyone individually, because there have been several people posting the same fucking nonsense…

“I would love an UBI so I could work as little as possible and play video games!”
“I would use my UBI to travel more. I would love to go on a cruise!”
“What if people are frugal with their food expenditures? What does it matter if they go to a movie or spend it on something else?”

You people are fucking clowns.

I’ll tell you why it fucking matters. I am all for my taxes going to help people with their basic necessities of life, but I fucking refuse to pay my taxes so someone can legitimately and intentionally sit on their ass and do nothing. I refuse to pay for someone to take a cruise or go to the movies. I refuse to pay people the amount it takes one person to live, and have them split costs with 8 other people. It’s nothing short of fucking stealing. I work too goddamn hard to make my own way to have people using my fucking money on luxuries. I’m sorry, but that’s a fact, and I’m not alone in this thinking.

Just last week, I saw for the first time, an ATM machine that lets you get cash from your SNAP card (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program). She then walked to the front counter and bought scratch tickets with the money. I quite literally witnessed my taxes going to a woman so she could gamble with it. Un-fucking-believable.

lol. I find it hilarious you think someone buying scratch-offs with what likely amounts to less than .001 of a penny from your actual pocket is more egregious than almost half of the top 10 people on the planet are actually subsidizing their workforce with way more of your tax money.....oh and they also buy off your politicians to the point if a new Wal-Mart is deemed beneficial to the given area, they can fall under eminent domain and force people to move for a parking lot.

But yeah that lady and her scratch off.......sigh.

[PatchworkBBC]

The long and short of it is that automation advances will eventually devastate the low-skill job market, and either we're gonna have to be okay with loads of people starving on the streets (because the jobs they're capable of actually doing no longer exist in sufficient numbers to employ them) or we're gonna have to be okay with loads of people dependent on welfare. A UBI, coupled with a corresponding tax (I think an across the board flat tax would be best, but that's just me) and the removal/curbing of some exemptions (I'm looking at you, mortgage payments) would be the most efficient delivery method for that.

But hey, loads of starving people is always an option; that's never ended badly before.

An interesting side note: unless the UBI takes into account the cost-of-living for the area a recipient lives in, there would likely be a massive population redistribution as people move from high-cost areas (like cities) to low-cost areas. As low-cost areas currently tend towards being politically conservative, that could have interesting consequences.

[Yvaelle]

I conjure thee @Yvaelle to explain to me a bit better an idea I discussed but unfortunately I am not much of an economist,

How much economic activity would become viable if say a single merchant or small business owner did not have to worry about "making a living." off of their businesses? Would the lack of pressure to make a living help or hinder that sort of thing?

Just got back from lunch and prepping for a meeting in 15 minutes so don't have time atm for a proper response for a couple hours - but my initial response is:

- The impact on economic activity resulting from a basic income is really a question of the degree to which the incentives of small business owners (in this example) are altered by the basic income.

- A study of small business owners in similar situations would probably be necessary to get a concrete answer.

- In a broader sense, this is analogous to "does money motivate workers" - and the answer to that is fairly definitively, "Only up to a certain quality of life", ex. 75k.

- This means that for people who would be choosing whether to earn Basic Income, or "More than Basic Income" - the answer is probably, "They would rather make more than Basic Income": since money/quality of life is still a motivating factor for those income brackets.

[Glorious Leader]

Exactly.

Unchecked capitalism will eat itself. At some point, a few will win the competition and have all the money. Once that happens, no one will be buying anything and the whole system crumbles. You cannot have a system with no floor and no ceiling. There must be one or the other. Conservatives definitely don't want a ceiling, so fine, then we must have a floor.

- - - Updated - - -



lol. I find it hilarious you think someone buying scratch-offs with what likely amounts to less than .001 of a penny from your actual pocket is more egregious than almost half of the top 10 people on the planet are actually subsidizing their workforce with way more of your tax money.....oh and they also buy off your politicians to the point if a new Wal-Mart is deemed beneficial to the given area, they can fall under eminent domain and force people to move for a parking lot.

But yeah that lady and her scratch off.......sigh.

Beyond that those lottery tickets actually serve as an incredible regressive tax on the poor.