Legion: Elemental Specific

[binkenstein]

Except it's not a 5 min CD anymore. Normal Nighthold gear is enough to get it down to a 3 minute cooldown. Wouldn't be surprised if it can get a 100% uptime by the end of the expac.

To get a 100% uptime at 3 seconds reduced per Lava Burst cast you'll need to reduce a 5 minute cooldown by 4 minutes. This would require 4 * 60 / 3 = 80 Lava Burst casts in a single minute, or one every 0.75 seconds. If there's a relic that gives a bonus to Elementalist then this would be 4 * 60 / 6 = 40, or one every 1.5 seconds. Currently turning it into a 3 minute CD requires 1 Lava Burst every 4.5 seconds

You forgot to mention that Binkenstein rerolled Mage for reasons mentioned in his blog and this thread. But whatever suits you.

No one says Elemental is completely unplayable. Its just not viable in the two main things you can do in this game - PvP and PvE. I think it's very viable for questing with your wife, tho.

I should probably say it's not viable in top end PvE or PvP. If you're not worried about stuff like that and aren't planning on hitting Mythic Raiding or Arenas then it's okay to stay Elemental I guess.

On the Theorycrafting vs Logs subject, even though final balancing hasn't happened yet I can see a number of mechanical issues that will cause problems down the track, similar to the Molten Earth & Overload situation in Warlords of Draenor, but most of it just comes down to experience and intuition based on what I know.

[Rezhka]

To get a 100% uptime at 3 seconds reduced per Lava Burst cast you'll need to reduce a 5 minute cooldown by 4 minutes. This would require 4 * 60 / 3 = 80 Lava Burst casts in a single minute, or one every 0.75 seconds. If there's a relic that gives a bonus to Elementalist then this would be 4 * 60 / 6 = 40, or one every 1.5 seconds. Currently turning it into a 3 minute CD requires 1 Lava Burst every 4.5 seconds.

Does LvB's overload also reduce the Elemental's cd from that Elementalist artifact's perk?

[trm90]

I also have two questions:

1) How is Liquid Magma in Legion compared to Live? The changes seem a bit subtle on paper but I'm wondering if it works better in practice, and does it help us with frontloaded AoE while we build maelstrom for EQs? I noticed the splash radius is up from 4 to 8 yards, it lasts for 5 seconds longer, and doesn't awkwardly require a fire totem to be up. Also, has its SP coefficient changed, cause I can't find the live version of it currently.

2) Is Molten Earth identical to live in its functionality, or does it still have a large delay before the shards start flying? This question might also apply to its Live functionality, but: does each spell and its overload basically throw a shard, effectively meaning Earthen Rage adds an extra 50% SP fire damage to every single target spell?

[miffy23]

To get a 100% uptime at 3 seconds reduced per Lava Burst cast you'll need to reduce a 5 minute cooldown by 4 minutes. This would require 4 * 60 / 3 = 80 Lava Burst casts in a single minute, or one every 0.75 seconds. If there's a relic that gives a bonus to Elementalist then this would be 4 * 60 / 6 = 40, or one every 1.5 seconds. Currently turning it into a 3 minute CD requires 1 Lava Burst every 4.5 seconds

I should probably say it's not viable in top end (add: competitive)PvE or PvP. If you're not worried about stuff like that and aren't planning on hitting Mythic Raiding or Arenas then it's okay to stay Elemental I guess.

On the Theorycrafting vs Logs subject, even though final balancing hasn't happened yet I can see a number of mechanical issues that will cause problems down the track, similar to the Molten Earth & Overload situation in Warlords of Draenor, but most of it just comes down to experience and intuition based on what I know.

Not saying you're wrong, just that for the overwhelming majority of players none of these concerns will apply. Even Heroic to *we sometimes do a few Mythic bosses* raiders will most likely be completely viable in Elemental.

The issues being debated here largely affect maybe 1% of regular Elemental shamans. Most others reach Mythic content at a time when gear inflation and/or soft nerf mechanics will have leveled the playing field.

So for all those browsing these threads and feeling like "omg my spec is dying!", keep that in mind. Elemental is quite fun in Legion and is arguably in a better place than it was in WoD.

[Deleted]

Not saying you're wrong, just that for the overwhelming majority of players none of these concerns will apply. Even Heroic to *we sometimes do a few Mythic bosses* raiders will most likely be completely viable in Elemental.

The issues being debated here largely affect maybe 1% of regular Elemental shamans. Most others reach Mythic content at a time when gear inflation and/or soft nerf mechanics will have leveled the playing field.

So for all those browsing these threads and feeling like "omg my spec is dying!", keep that in mind. Elemental is quite fun in Legion and is arguably in a better place than it was in WoD.

You couldnt be more wrong. The best example you currently have is HFC, where Elemental completely sucks during farming. When bosses begin to die faster than intended Ele automatically gets worse and worse.

It is maybe true if you raid with people who have varying skill levels.

[Jotaux]

I never understand the argument "Well you aren't min/maxing so being so far behind in damage and utility isn't bad"

You are expecting elemental shamans to play at a mythic level to be able to have a raid spot in heroics. I guess this is why I find elemental shamans at the mythic level currently to just be plain better raiders than the majority of their raid. They have to make up for the classes shortcomings through reliability and versatility.

[gambit998]

I never understand the argument "Well you aren't min/maxing so being so far behind in damage and utility isn't bad"

You are expecting elemental shamans to play at a mythic level to be able to have a raid spot in heroics. I guess this is why I find elemental shamans at the mythic level currently to just be plain better raiders than the majority of their raid. They have to make up for the classes shortcomings through reliability and versatility.

Sorry what Versatility? Our numbers are bad...no i lie Shocker bad. We bring nothing to a raid, if your raid leader is taking an Elemental Shaman over a Mage for instance that has better Burst insane single target then he is insane. Having the place on farm does not constitute Elemental being 'alright' as we all know it is not at all in WOD.

I would find it insulting that i have to take my main to an alt run for lack of a better term just to gear up and still most probably be the ass end of the scale.

Shamans need there numbers adressed on ALL of there spells and tbh there castimes and buff durations need to be adjusted. I am guessing here since i am not part of the beta but the secondaries we will be running are most probably Mastery/Haste or is it god forbid - Mastery/Haste/Crit?

[Kelonaar]

Not saying you're wrong, just that for the overwhelming majority of players none of these concerns will apply. Even Heroic to *we sometimes do a few Mythic bosses* raiders will most likely be completely viable in Elemental.

The issues being debated here largely affect maybe 1% of regular Elemental shamans. Most others reach Mythic content at a time when gear inflation and/or soft nerf mechanics will have leveled the playing field.

So for all those browsing these threads and feeling like "omg my spec is dying!", keep that in mind. Elemental is quite fun in Legion and is arguably in a better place than it was in WoD.

Wrong on so many levels and this is coming from a raider that's NOT in your so called 1% affected. In fact, I'd be one of the US 1000+ raiders whose opinions Ucandosht likes to say don't matter. The only mythic end bosses I've downed while they were current are the ones where Blizz gives us an absurd content gap (HFC, SoO). I tried to push to raid in top US guilds, but even though I could pass the trial in terms of ability to deal with mechanics, fast learning curve, solid numbers put where they needed to be, etc. nobody has a desire to take any shaman but a Resto.

I've gotten over the desire to push content as hard as possible and now raid with people I just actually enjoy raiding with. Even though I'm no longer trying to push into top guilds/kills, I feel like I'm gimping my raid because even a flawless Ele shaman simply can't compare to a mage/lock/hunter/rogue etc. playing at a significantly lower level.

[Riistov]

I should probably say it's not viable in top end PvE or PvP.

With all due respect, isn't it a little early to completely rule out the viability of the spec for an entire expansion?

There is certainly cause for concern, but declaring the spec nonviable for Mythic raiding at this point seems a bit hyperbolic imho.

[Jotaux]

Sorry what Versatility? Our numbers are bad...no i lie Shocker bad. We bring nothing to a raid, if your raid leader is taking an Elemental Shaman over a Mage for instance that has better Burst insane single target then he is insane. Having the place on farm does not constitute Elemental being 'alright' as we all know it is not at all in WOD.

I would find it insulting that i have to take my main to an alt run for lack of a better term just to gear up and still most probably be the ass end of the scale.

Shamans need there numbers adressed on ALL of there spells and tbh there castimes and buff durations need to be adjusted. I am guessing here since i am not part of the beta but the secondaries we will be running are most probably Mastery/Haste or is it god forbid - Mastery/Haste/Crit?

Versatility as in the player, not the class. The player has to just plain be better than his raid in order to even be in the raid group.

[binkenstein]

Does LvB's overload also reduce the Elemental's cd from that Elementalist artifact's perk?

No.

I also have two questions:

1) How is Liquid Magma in Legion compared to Live? The changes seem a bit subtle on paper but I'm wondering if it works better in practice, and does it help us with frontloaded AoE while we build maelstrom for EQs? I noticed the splash radius is up from 4 to 8 yards, it lasts for 5 seconds longer, and doesn't awkwardly require a fire totem to be up. Also, has its SP coefficient changed, cause I can't find the live version of it currently.

2) Is Molten Earth identical to live in its functionality, or does it still have a large delay before the shards start flying? This question might also apply to its Live functionality, but: does each spell and its overload basically throw a shard, effectively meaning Earthen Rage adds an extra 50% SP fire damage to every single target spell?

1: Better
2: It's about the same. I think there are technical reasons behind why there's a 2 sec delay on it triggering. It's also not caused by spells directly.

Not saying you're wrong, just that for the overwhelming majority of players none of these concerns will apply. Even Heroic to *we sometimes do a few Mythic bosses* raiders will most likely be completely viable in Elemental.

The issues being debated here largely affect maybe 1% of regular Elemental shamans. Most others reach Mythic content at a time when gear inflation and/or soft nerf mechanics will have leveled the playing field.

So for all those browsing these threads and feeling like "omg my spec is dying!", keep that in mind. Elemental is quite fun in Legion and is arguably in a better place than it was in WoD.

With all due respect, isn't it a little early to completely rule out the viability of the spec for an entire expansion?

There is certainly cause for concern, but declaring the spec nonviable for Mythic raiding at this point seems a bit hyperbolic imho.

I think there are significant mechanical issues that will impact players striving to be the best, and also come into play the further into the expansion we go. This includes the ever growing list of "Procs that we ignore", "Things which at first glance would be awesomely stackable except delays reduce output", multiple situation talents and core design issues that result in massive potential for rotation imbalance in a spec that derives a lot of power from the difference in damage between spells.

As much as we like to think to the contrary, the raid makeup and opinions of "World First" players will be used by guilds Heroic & up, or even by some PuG organizers. The end result is that Elemental becomes less desirable, and the only way this won't happen is if the tuning passes ramp damage up to the point where Ele is comparable with Mages, Hunters or Warlocks in single target damage (which I think is highly unlikely).

[Deleted]

Versatility as in the player, not the class. The player has to just plain be better than his raid in order to even be in the raid group.

And this is fucking ridiculous right

[Munjica]

With all due respect, isn't it a little early to completely rule out the viability of the spec for an entire expansion?

There is certainly cause for concern, but declaring the spec nonviable for Mythic raiding at this point seems a bit hyperbolic imho.

Yes, for pve is still early. But for pvp I can tell you now that it will be very bad. I'm basing this on the toolkit of ele and toolkit of other classes.In arena/bg everyone still focus you and when melee get on top of you it's game over, because you can't get rid of them.

[Jotaux]

And this is fucking ridiculous right

Yep, which is why I orignally said I don't understand how anyone can seriously make the "Well you aren't min/maxing so being so far behind in damage and utility isn't bad" argument.

[Riistov]

We have mathematical and practical proof that something isn't working, or isn't working right or isn't working like something else.

We also have precedent that when confronted with the raw numbers and glaring mechanical issues, blizzard seems to ignore feedback on Elemental again and again.

[Lucrece]

Yes, for pve is still early. But for pvp I can tell you now that it will be very bad. I'm basing this on the toolkit of ele and toolkit of other classes.In arena/bg everyone still focus you and when melee get on top of you it's game over, because you can't get rid of them.

This applies to any caster who isn't a mage or warlock. Ele is no special in the "I've got shit defensives and now pure classes outheal my hybrid heals" department.

Hybrid casters have been historically screwed in PvP. Spriests are a bit more uneven and sometimes closer to viability, but ele and moonkin have always been utter shit in arenas thanks to crap defensive cooldowns and no easy access to fears/stuns that let them set up burst windows on a target.

Balance druids and ele shamans were also unfortunate to be redesigned with the warrior Rage mechanic, which sucks for casters in PvP because casters can't cast on the move and their abilities are interruptible, and they rely on those abilities to ramp up resources to actually do damage now.

Good luck casting a 2.7 sec cast Lunar Strike or 2.5 sec Lava Burst now as either druid or shaman.

[Deleted]

This applies to any caster who isn't a mage or warlock. Ele is no special in the "I've got shit defensives and now pure classes outheal my hybrid heals" department.

Hybrid casters have been historically screwed in PvP. Spriests are a bit more uneven and sometimes closer to viability, but ele and moonkin have always been utter shit in arenas thanks to crap defensive cooldowns and no easy access to fears/stuns that let them set up burst windows on a target.

Balance druids and ele shamans were also unfortunate to be redesigned with the warrior Rage mechanic, which sucks for casters in PvP because casters can't cast on the move and their abilities are interruptible, and they rely on those abilities to ramp up resources to actually do damage now.

Good luck casting a 2.7 sec cast Lunar Strike or 2.5 sec Lava Burst now as either druid or shaman.

Other than Balance Druids, Elemental never had increased HP as a passive glyph on top of blink, roar, cyclone, typhoon, vortex/instant 5s stun, great off healing or great burst.

[Lucrece]

Elemental also never had a 1 min spell interrupt (theirs was a 12 sec cd Wind shear, being able to interrupt caster bursts 4 times more than balance druid, but don't let that stop your wailing) , a lack of access to grounding totem, lack of access to A BASELINE SNARE (balance druid being the only caster without a snare), their Thunderstorm was not a talented ability with a lesser knockback, they didn't lack Tremor Totem, they didn't lack Purge to take those Avenging Wrath wings off. It also has a 30% damage reduction (instead of 20% from Barkskin) in shamanistic rage for 3 seconds longer (15 vs 12) or access to another 40% damage reduction cd in Astral Shift. I guess ele didn't have burst in WotLK when it was featured alongside destro locks, or in cataclysm either. I guess that's why historically ele shamans haven't been more featured in gladiator titles in arenas than balance druids.

But cry more, my poor elemental martyr. You are the worst class ever, the whining rights are all yours.

[Munjica]

I mostly play pve on my shaman, and what bothers me in legion is that pve and pvp share same gear. That means that players that play both can gear up faster for both. In case of pvp they said it will be just a minor advantage so it will not be that impactful. On the other hand in pve it will be major advantage that someone can gear ~twice as fast as you do. If you have people that compete for some spots in the raiding group, being viable spec in pvp will be advantage. Sadly I can't see elemental being viable in pvp so I will fall behind with gear in my raiding group and possible lose my raiding spot. I think this is why many elemental shamans will reroll in legion.

[Keiyra]

On the other hand in pve it will be major advantage that someone can gear ~twice as fast as you do.

If they are willing to do twice the work, then sure they should gear twice as fast as you. It's not going to be just walk into arena and poof heroic raid gear ilvl rewards. They will have to up that rating and do the the hard work of getting that extra gear.

WoW has pretty much always had ways of more work/time = more rewards.

Yeah, if you are competing for spots with someone who pvp's better than you do, and they decide to pvp to get that extra gear. Well, then your recourse is to be better than him/her in raiding (better at mechanics if not better at dps) - or do your own extra work to get more gear.

If you cant do pvp (through your class being weak or you just not being good at it) then you can get extra gear through mythic+ or even crafting (if blizzard ever fixes crafting cause it looks like poop atm) I personally don't enjoy pvp in WoW - so I will not be choosing that route for gear on any toon.