Would you pick nightborne over blood elf?

[Radaney]

Nightborne are a Night Elf subrace, why would you mention Blood Elf?

Blood Elves are a Night Elf subrace too.

[ravenmoon]

We have two races of Elves, one per each faction.

We have the drow archetype and the traditional fair skinned archetype covered.

We have the sylvan archetype and the mystical archetype covered.

In short Blizzard is unlikely to say we need more elves. Nobody needs more elves. We have plenty of elf options, covering all possible tastes from fantasy fiction.

I was being sarcastic but you're right, indeed, and that explains why we most unlikely to have nightborne as a main race , but if sub-races show up, they'll be there as a night elf sub-race. probably on alliance, possibly on horde, question is, would you swap your BElf toon for one if it happened?

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I cannot follow this grammatical nightmare of a sentence...

genuinely? Or you're just being nitpicky?

"This is ofc assuming the nightwell won't be cleansed, and that problem fixed, which it will have to be if they were going to be playable."

[Syegfryed]

trade an elf by other elf

i not see any win here

why people lke to think nightborn are a different specie and not a night elf

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Blood Elves are a Night Elf subrace too.

they aren't

[Obelisk Kai]

I was being sarcastic but you're right, indeed, and that explains why we most unlikely to have nightborne as a main race , but if sub-races show up, they'll be there as a night elf sub-race. probably on alliance, possibly on horde, question is, would you swap your BElf toon for one if it happened?

My main is a Blood Elf and the answer is absolutely not.

[RedGamer030]

assuming the nightwell won't be cleansed, and that problem fixed, which it will have to be

This right here burns my eyes.

[Obelisk Kai]

trade an elf by other elf

i not see any win here

why people lke to think nightborn are a different specie and not a night elf

Nightborne are another species of Elf, the third race of Elves on Azeroth. They are as different from the Night Elves as the High/Blood Elves are, they've just gone in a different direction.

It appears this direction is similar to the direction the High/Blood Elves went but it has led to a different outcome.

[Radaney]

they aren't

Yes, yes they are.

[Syegfryed]

Nightborne are another species of Elf, the third race of Elves on Azeroth. They are as different from the Night Elves as the High/Blood Elves are, they've just gone in a different direction.

It appears this direction is similar to the direction the High/Blood Elves went but it has led to a different outcome.

indeed my mistake, they become another specie, less drastic than a high elf, and with too fews diferences between the NE, still there is no reason to change blood elves with then, or put they as another playable race, too similar to the night elves

Yes, yes they are.

they are different species, there is a big difference to be another specie coming from then due evolution, and be a subspecie, its like to say all elves are subraces of trolls, who is wrong

so, they aren't subspecies

[ravenmoon]

Nightborne are another species of Elf, the third race of Elves on Azeroth. They are as different from the Night Elves as the High/Blood Elves are, they've just gone in a different direction.

It appears this direction is similar to the direction the High/Blood Elves went but it has led to a different outcome.

i wouldn't view the nightborne as a 3rd race of elves anymore than I would view the darkfallen as a 3rd race of elves or the Fel blood elves or the Wretched.

Blizzard have given a new race of night elves, there is a reason they work as evolved night elves , in a way we do not consider the blood elves as even though they are.

It's because nightborne retain a 100% night elven culture but it's not the culture of the current night elves, it's the culture of the pre-sundering night elves, which is still night elven culture.

The whole point about the nightborne is to show you pre-sundering night elf culture, what would it look like if the night elves hadn't stopped using arcane magic.

As you can see, whiles it's new to wow, it's not brand new (its been in their lore since day 1), whiles it's different, it's not totally different. Blizzard aren't creating a 3rd elven group, there is no need for that, this is the other side of the night elf - which is your dark elf in wow. It's amazing that blizzard, despite showing you everything about the nightborne and their very 100% night elvenness, people would consider them different because they can't think of night elves outside nature treehugger hippy so it seems so alien to that concept they think it's something else.

The only thing that's different about nightborne to pre-sundering night elf is the slightly changed body. They are in a night elven city they've been for the last 10,000 years, doing night elven ways. Just that this is a different type of night elven way to what you've seen before. If you've read the lore books or warcraft 3 manual, you'd have been aware of this side of night elves. The culture of current night elves is different from nightborne, as is their appearance. But nightborne culture is also night elven, just one you've only read about and now you get to see. As for the appearance, it's very slightly different. thinner, and the males have the ear tip lean up. They have the same dark theme, moon and stars theme etc - it's not something new to the lore, only new to the game.

for the game, it's a new everything, for the lore, it's just a new look to the night elf that helps make them visually distinct from your current night elf.

You would have noticed it in the highborne shen'drelar too, but that was never focused much on - you may be distracted by their different model - but blizzard does this to EVERY RACE they expand upon every expansion with a sub-race, in the case of the night elves, they showed you a different side of them.

Blood elves remember stopped being night elves, nightborne did not. Blood elves on exile, changed their night elvenness, took the night out of night elf and were elf. making high elf something else. They started a new civilization NOT based on the old, and not based on the vigil lifestyle the night elf group they left were following. The nightborne did not stop being night elves, they continued, their shapes evolved very slightly - look at them, they look like skinny night elves. they use the same model frame, they are advanced arcane night elves, not brand new 3rd elven group.

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indeed my mistake, they become another specie, less drastic than a high elf, and with too fews diferences between the NE, still there is no reason to change blood elves with then, or put they as another playable race, too similar to the night elves

yes, they are what qualifies as a sub-race of night elf. but I think obelisk-kai is thinking of them as a 3rd species of elf, which they aren't. They are new race, they are a new race of elf, they are a new race of night elf. Saying all 3 would be correct. They are the first sub-race of night elf to be shown in wow. Every other race has gotten subraces in WoW's lifetime except the night elves. until now. Notice how blizzard didn't create a new elven origin story, no, they instead showed you night elves, in a night elf city, being night elves as we have seen them in the lore pre-sundering, continuing in that manner, unchanged except that their nightwell alters their body a little bit.

they are different species, there is a big difference to be another specie coming from then due evolution, and be a subspecie, its like to say all elves are subraces of trolls, who is wrong

so, they aren't subspecies
that's wrong,

they are not a different species to night elf, ofc, they are just a different kind of night elf. Whereas a blood elf is a different kind of elf.. same species of Elf. I hope you appreciate the difference.

Trolls are a different species to Elf. Elves changed totally from trolls. Sure they were once trolls, but they became a new species. It's like Naga too, naga were once night elves, but they are totally new species. Blood elves are not a totally new species, they are still elves as you noticed, their changes are very small, it's like white european people vs black african people. Whereas between night elves and nightborne it's like black west african vs east african. or West indies black vs east african black.

We don't consider Elves a sub-races of Trolls, because they are trolls no longer, even though they came from trolls. We consider mechagnomes part of the gnome familiy though, because the gnomes just became flesh, whiles they are different from mechagnomes, a new race, they are a new race of gnomes. Not a new species entirely.

[Deleted]

Never. Blood Elf females are so hot. I only play them and it sure tells something about you if you're a male horde player and don't play a blood elf female. I automatically assume that you're gay if you're playing something else. I envy the alliance guys since they have two hot races.

[Deleted]

I would definitely keep my Blood Elves.

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I think alot of people would choose a nightborn over a nightelf or Be so they can imagine being Drizzt ;-)

They can already do this with a NE hunter. NE have a white hair option available and they have dark skin. Problem solved.

[Syegfryed]

they are not a different species to night elf, ofc, they are just a different kind of night elf. Whereas a blood elf is a different kind of elf.. same species of Elf. I hope you appreciate the difference.

Trolls are a different species to Elf. Elves changed totally from trolls. Sure they were once trolls, but they became a new species. It's like Naga too, naga were once night elves, but they are totally new species. Blood elves are not a totally new species, they are still elves as you noticed, their changes are very small, it's like white european people vs black african people. Whereas between night elves and nightborne it's like black west african vs east african. or West indies black vs east african black.

We don't consider Elves a sub-races of Trolls, because they are trolls no longer, even though they came from trolls. We consider mechagnomes part of the gnome familiy though, because the gnomes just became flesh, whiles they are different from mechagnomes, a new race, they are a new race of gnomes. Not a new species entirely.

Blood elves is a kind of Elf indeed, but they are not subspecie of Night elves, they are a different specie of elf, just think about the big cats, they are all felines (like they are all elves), but they are different species, an exemple, if the jaguar came evolutionary from the lion ( just a exemple cause they share more genetic features) they are not sub-species, they are a new specie

but the lions ( night elves) have different subspecies, like the african lion, asian lion etc

[ravenmoon]

Blood elves is a kind of Elf indeed, but they are not subspecie of Night elves, they are a different specie of elf, just think about the big cats, they are all felines (like they are all elves), but they are different species, an exemple, if the jaguar came evolutionary from the lion ( just a exemple cause they share more genetic features) they are not sub-species, they are a new specie

but the lions ( night elves) have different subspecies, like the african lion, asian lion etc

okay, I can see it can be viewed that way, you won't be wrong. I think the relationship is closer than that for several reasons, i think it''s more like the difference between white euorpean and african - i.e. same species but a variation. We just view them as different because they are presented that way complete with a different style and theme and different development - i.e. enough to be a different playable race, but still the same.

I know not everyone would agree with me on that one. But when I look at the lore, the night elven highborne that became high elves lost the dark skin and height stature because they were cut off from the well. Because blizzard doesn't explain the exact details of this, they really are night elves that have changed their sleeping patterns and have superficial changes like skin colour and height.

the well of eternity merely boosting night elves' stature and dark skin tones. high elves are night elves without a well. To me that's pretty much not Lion vs Jaguar. That's African Lion vs Asian Lion, not even that. In game the distinction is only greater because they changed their civilization too, and they are given enough assets to be another race, but i don't really view it as a different species. It's just elves playable on two sides.

Meanwhile, Darkfallen and Fel blood elves, Wretched are all variations of that are derived from Blood elf and are closer to them than night elf. conversely, nightborne is a variation of night elf, closer to night elf than blood elf

Elves are not the only one that exist on 2 factions. Humans do. Remember undead are just undead humans. WoW makes more of a deal by distinguishing as much as possible its playable races, even those that are related. Dwarf and gnome are genuinely two different races, like Lion and Jaguar - even though they are cousins, and actually we find that their relationship is the same with human in the wow universe.

There is a reason humans don't come in different races or species. We have shown that since the 19th century even though USA is the only country in the world that officially calls ethnic groups Races. We do have genetic variations, but they are much smaller between the different ethnicities around the world than they are between two different races and species, hence we dont' use the term.

Also, for people who think sunwells and nightwells have made blood elves and nightborne different from night elves enough to become a different new species rather than just a new species of elf or night elf respectively, think again. Both the sunwell and the nightwell are made from the same well of eternity waters. The sunwell is modified, the nightwell isn't. The nightwell pooled the leyline blood vein of Azeroth (same substance as the well of eternity) to the arcane font that was in Suramar. The Eye of Aman'thul was used to enlarge that font. Unlike the Sunwell which used a vial of the well of eternity and then the blood elves did something more with it, the nightwell is of the same well of eternity, but it is currently corrupted (which i suspect will be fixed) - the point is, all elves are still connected to the same Azeroth blood veins we call magical ley lines, and thus are not changed into different species by their wells even though they have different names. also highlights the closer similarity of nightborne (evolved night elves) and current night elves (normal night elves)

Think of it this way. The magical leylines are azeroths veins and arteries and the magical energy his blood. Think about the mountains and earth it's flesh and substance. The creatures including sentient beings more like a type of autonomous cell that's become self aware or like a bacteria that is part of a body. The creatures subsist off the substance of Azeroths flesh and azeroth's blood. and their life force depends on it. Now the elves use to use the magic they discovered, the power the blood gave them access too, very responsibly, using it to shape forests and enhance them, and build beautiful and elegant cities in an enhancing and harmonising way until Queen Azshara and the night elves started getting really reckless. Obsessing and over using. Not maintaining balance within themselves (i mean think of it like food, it's great for you, but if you over eat and don't exercise or control your eating you go out of balance, fatten and disease (corruption) start happening to you, you get lazy and lethargic and craving for food increase) - not maintaining the balance without either - using the Well crazily.. now many night elves started backing down from that, noticing it was getting too much, some of the highborne who were renowned as the best and most gifted at magic also started sounding warning bells.

Cenarius departed from the night elves too because their arcane obsession had taken them off course causing them to come out of balance, but Queen Azshara did not listen, little did the other know that she had made contact with the burning legion, and in the original time line, over the course of 250 years, would court them and introduce them into the world that they would storm and destroy night elven civilizations systematically.

It's like digging and mining, sure, it's useful, and there is a way to do it right so that you can gain precious minerals and metals to use while protecting the integrity of the earth, but there is a way to do it wrong, over reach and not care about the earth while you're doing it. Progress doesn't need you to be reckless, you can make a lot of progress by being steady. Tell that to the ivory collectors, poachers, deforesters, the reason a problem is happening is not because it's bad to get wood or food, but at the reckless rate you're doing it.. . what to build more cities faster and line your pockets, you're damaging the earth and causing it to go out of balance, everything needs to work in harmony, you can get what you need and do your fancy stuff in the right way. Or you can go all evil and gluttonous and grab grab grab like there's no consequence. i.e. you can do arcane in total harmony with your world and the night elves did this to perfection until Azshara went all over-xxx. It's greed , fear or shame (as in the case of the blood elves between TFT and TBC) that cause you to go "f*** it" , "i don't care, and gorge yourself not caring who you hurt including yourself as long as you get what you want." That's misuse. No one new why the Queen kept going out of whack, despite the warnings even from her own kind, over-confidence that she could deal? maybe, but we learn that she was been courted by the Legion in secret - it is my belief that their deception caused her to throw off her restraints or working in harmony and start pumping up research at reckless rates to create larger portals. I suspect in those 250 years before the sundering (original timeline) she was learning new secrets and info from the demons. I think she was too smart to go for fel, but she did want Sargeras to come and thus went out of balance in the singular goal of bringing the legion into Azeroth. [in the modified timeline, rather than 250 years of craziness passing, it takes just a few short years instead thanks to the infinite flight's meddling - which meant Azshara probably held out a lot longer originally, I can imagine they would write that Sargeras prob used the same lure on her that he did with Kil'jaeden and Archimonde, but she didn't bite like they did, what clinched it for her was the chance to start Azeroth from scratch again.

notice the high elves don't misuse magic like that, neither do the nightborne. The blood elves did for a short while though as a people. All groups had individuals who from time to time went a little cookoo ofc, but I'm talking about the general direction of the whole group. Nightborne we find out are not misuing magic at all, there problem has come from the corruption of their source, not from magical misiuse. The source of corruption may have come from how they converted nightwell energy to a form that could be used to feed them, but it wasn't through abusive use like Azshara. We know that they are in this predicament because they were starving all bubbled up in the city, having no food left they ingeniously used the arcane font to convert energy into a form that could be ingested - not this is not actually using magical spells to conjure up food or using the power in spells, this is actually using the actual font waters. it's never been done, it might be what caused the corruption, but i hope you appreciate that they were not channelling magic irresponsibly like Azshara.. all elves learnt from that.

The high elf situation is not irresponsible use either. yes the night elves in TBC accused the blood elves of being no different from Azshara, "same old reckless highborne" but they were not referring to the high elves 7000 year existence, no, we see them quite comfortably work with high elf mages in the battle at Mt Hyjal and with Kael'thas later in the search for Illidan. Not they were referring to the dark direction the blood elves then took after joining Illidan up to when we meet them in TBC where they are being very reckless and magically abusing. Fortunately for them, they get redeemed from that. The high elf era was not magical mis-use nor abuse, however the high elves did get addicted.

Now addiction is probably not a good term to use here, because abuse was not involved, still when they lost the sunwell they had withdrawals and craving for the arcane. it's not the same situation with the nightborne - that is nightwell substance dependancy, like food - you don't say because you need food you're addicted to it - even though without it you will crave for it, and you will die. You need food. sure even in needing food you can gain a food addiction which is a state where you don't control your food intake, but we don't call needing food for sustenance addicition, the nightborne need the nightwell for susstenance, it is not addiction, it is dependency. The high elves on the other hand, wouldn't die without the arcane, they don't need it like you need food. There's is more like a come down from a drug, where your body will react for a while till it gets use to the new situation. You can view that as an addiction.. the difference is though the arcane is not like a harmful drug. so in their case their type of addiciton is actually not a bad thing

The current night elves diddn't want that dependency the high elves have on the arcane, because they viewed the arcane as bad. But they now know that's not the case. The night elves didn't view the arcane as bad, they viewed using it as bad. Why? because for 10k years they thought using it brings back the demons. The legion is drawn to the arcane, and it is the well of eternity was why they came to Azeroth - the night elves thought. (they were wrong we now know), but seeing that Well of Eternity usage was the only thing they knew off that could draw the demons (because they were in isolation, they had no idea that you could hide magical usage from the twisting nether, and because they didn't listen to Illidan they didn't know that the Legion had other means to find Azeroth and had been looking for Azeroth long before the elves existed and weren't after the magic primarily, they were after the planet).

Anyway, the night elves view arcane usage as bad until cataclysm and until that time would have viewed the high elf arcane addiction as unacceptable too. They may still view it that way ofc.. but you have to note that it is clear now that the Arcane is not a corrupt source, it is actually pure and very good, we didn't know for sure till Chronicles confirms it as the magic of order. However despite it being highly addictive, it is also very good for you unlike a Class A drug, that just makes you feel high, lose your mind, lose your faculties, crave and damages your body. The arcane heals your body, clears your mind, enhances your faculty and lengthens your life, when the only trade off is addictiveness and nothing else, it's an easy choice. When however its costs outweigh its benefits, it isn't...and you can see how until the 3rd war, for the post-sundering night elf population, who felt that arcane usage causes demons to returns, demons that destroy the world you can see how the cost far outweighed the benefit.

Now they are better informed, you can see they have started using magic again or at least allowed it for whatever night elf who wants to use it to do so. It is sitll a potent force and ofc you have to watch yourself, but night elves had been doing that for 5k years before the sundering and living the vigil are not short on discipline.

So, will they still view arcane addiction as a bad thing? I don't know, i think it's an individual thing here. Druids will continue without it, but you have to also bear in mind, that ALL ELVES use the arcane and consider it good. Night elves are suffused by the well of eternity still even though they stopped using it - it enhances them, maintains their height, their eye glow etc, if they stopped they would become like high elves. Notice how night elves ALWAYS take moonwells around with them. They are arcane waters.. they improve the life and natural land all around them, they enhance everything.

Ofc it's not nice to be deprived off your arcane source... so like food you have to protect it. High elves never planned for the eventuality of a life without the sunwell and were thus so unprepared and it hurt them, blood elves determind never to be caught so off guard so ran reckless sucking mana out of everything by the time you hit Kael'thas in the netherstorm they're reckless monsters. In nightborne it's clear that arcane usage is not supposed to yield that kinda of effect (i.e. withered if you don't use it) so something is wrong that needs to be fixed.

But i hope this helps clarify a lot of things between Elves, similiarities, differences etc. Nightborne are an arcane night elven culture, blood elves are a different arcane culture to the nightborne, but they're an arcane Elven culture, not night elven. Current night elves are what we now call a post-vigil culture, they changed their culture from to one without magic and the customs of before. It was a new culture, notice nightborne didn't change, htere's is no new culture, it is the original night elven culture, and it is the same culture as the shen'drelar highborne. Effectively nightborne showcase the second night elven culture, expanding night elves for a lot of people who just thought they were just nature hippies round a tree. No, they have two types of cultures, and they are certainly not nature hippies, only the druids are. You have arcane mages a whole civilizaiton of them, nightborne and highborne, you have Priests of Elunenothing to do with nature, but they involve the arcane in rituals, not for spellwork (that's mages) but the arcane waters are the most sacred substance. You have demon hunters and amazonian female warriors. It makes them a much more whole society with the arcane element now on a larger more prominent scale, even if the wielders look different.

[Detheavn]

No way. Gnome master race !

Hell yeah!

[Kyrenna]

Hell yeah!

I see what you did there 8)

[Syegfryed]

@ravenmoon i understand your point, indeed

but we are talking with some biological and cultural level of species, in biology, subspecie is a "bad term" i dont know how to say well on english, but subspecies are species with small differences between the primal specie, so they technically are not the same specie, but they are not too distant to be a new one, or they do not have much differences to be a new one

to be a new specie, they need to have enough diferences, or at least some genetic differences ( this we cant say, like no one will do a research with genes on wow races) some birds are almost exactly the same morphological, but they are different species

anyway blizz already fuck up with the biology of the game already( like the concept of specie is: they can breed, and the sons are fertile, but everyone can breed with everyone anyway) so i stick with the idea, of Elves to be genre, or a family, coming from the trolls, and night elves and blood elves are different species, who share a common ancestor

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon i understand your point, indeed

but we are talking with some biological and cultural level of species, in biology, subspecie is a "bad term" i dont know how to say well on english, but subspecies are species with small differences between the primal specie, so they technically are not the same specie, but they are not too distant to be a new one, or they do not have much differences to be a new one

to be a new specie, they need to have enough diferences, or at least some genetic differences ( this we cant say, like no one will do a research with genes on wow races) some birds are almost exactly the same morphological, but they are different species

anyway blizz already fuck up with the biology of the game already( like the concept of specie is: they can breed, and the sons are fertile, but everyone can breed with everyone anyway) so i stick with the idea, of Elves to be genre, or a family, coming from the trolls, and night elves and blood elves are different species, who share a common ancestor

you're right, there is no fixed definition in wow, when we say sub-race, there is a broad scope we use and in real life, it is also confusing. we can only use analogies. Using terms like evolve or mutate or changed aren't specific, and they often can give varying different interpretations.

like sometimes when they use evolved - i don't think new species, i just think minor mutation or small change, sometimes i think it means whole new species, .. but the same word is used. English is not like Ancient Greek, it's not very precise or ancient hebrew whose precision is in analogy rather than syntax. And we also tend to mis-use a lot of terms. So I go back to context, like i described above. Noticing there are times when the race has changed completely, i.e. new species it is an evolution (like trolls to night elves), and other times when it hasn't it has just diversified like night elf to blood elf or normal night elf to nightborne Nelf. When you think about it, the differences between ice trolls and jungle trolls are more pronounced than the physical difference between night elf and blood elf, but we think of the latter as a distinct race but not the former?

I can only conclude that just because a race is playable doesn't necessarily mean it's biologically a distinctive race, I don't think that's the criteraia they necessarily use, we are getting basically what has developed in the story. the story gave us undead humans and dark elves in WC3, they are both sub-races of the existing humans and high elves (real time chronology) but we view them differently because they are introduced as different races with unique assets.