Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Torty]

You people are delusional if you thought druid wasn't in for heavy nerfs.

You are delusional if you think we are whining about current power level (which is completely irrelevant) and not the playstyle. Reread the thread in case you are still confused. It's a good advice in general to keep yourself informed before posting something dumb.

[xdmemes]

You are delusional if you think we are whining about current power level (which is completely irrelevant) and not the playstyle. Reread the thread in case you are still confused. It's a good advice in general to keep yourself informed before posting something dumb.

Check your vision... and your blood pressure while you're at it. There are plenty of complaints about relative power.

[yerika]

They said on twitter:
"Some talents were shuffled around in this build, but they will be going back to where they were in the next build"

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...75478655209473

Maybe they will reverse some of them? :/

Hoping this is the case.

I would also like to have a 3 stack cap over this. We've known that the Mastery would have a problem scaling for awhile now, and it'll really suck to have play styles suffer for it.

[Torty]

Check your vision... and your blood pressure while you're at it. There are plenty of complaints about relative power.

I've just reread the entirety of last page and saw one small post about Priests, nothing else. I'm not having problems with blood pressure, but maybe you do, considering you came to different spec thread and post some useless gloating BS.

Hoping this is the case.

I would also like to have a 3 stack cap over this. We've known that the Mastery would have a problem scaling for awhile now, and it'll really suck to have play styles suffer for it.

It's up on Beta, DK stuff isn't. It's not a datamining error in our case. They would have to push another build to put the talents back, which I assume they won't do right now.

[theburned]

I've just reread the entirety of last page and saw one small post about Priests, nothing else. I'm not having problems with blood pressure, but maybe you do, considering you came to different spec thread and post some useless gloating BS.

I'd suggest you ignore trolls, and heavily encourage everyone else to also ignore them if they ever decide to reply to them.

[xdmemes]

I've just reread the entirety of last page and saw one small post about Priests, nothing else. I'm not having problems with blood pressure, but maybe you do, considering you came to different spec thread and post some useless gloating BS.

How would that affect my blood pressure any? You're the one raging about it.

I'm not gloating. In fact I'm positive that I've played a druid much longer and at a much higher level than you. Simply pointing out the fact that you're dense if you think we weren't in for changes.

[Tiberria]

How would that affect my blood pressure any? You're the one raging about it.

I'm not gloating. In fact I'm positive that I've played a druid much longer and at a much higher level than you. Simply pointing out the fact that you're dense if you think we weren't in for changes.

And you're beyond dense if you don't think these changes go so far over the top it's not even funny. They literally equate to something approaching a 50% overall nerf to Druid strength, and even if they balance throughput during the tuning pass, you still have to deal with the fact that the spec's playstyle and talent selection has literally been gutted with a 2x4. Pretty much, all because some idiot developer refuses to admit that this mastery was a terrible concept, never should have left the drafting table, and definitely has no business still being in pace. Just as an example, we are basically blocked from taking Germination at this point (because the talent is mathematically useless) and that completely changes the way the spec plays - and not in a good way. Our tank healing is now the worst of any healer as well because of this over reaction. But go ahead, keep deluding yourself into derailing threads and making snide remarks. The MW thread is that way. Go away.

[Supliftz]

Wow it's almost like these changes are the exact same changes holy paladins got in wod beta.

They obviously didn't like the insane tank hps druids are doing with only x2 rejuv + lifebloom, and they dislike cult + spring blossoms existing together. It's extremely obvious resto druid is going to get buffed, just like holy paladin was buffed after they butchered tower of radiance.

like charityx said, you would be pretty delusional to think rdruid were fine after they just nerfed shamans, disc priests, holy paladin, and holy priests.

[Tiberria]

Wow it's almost like these changes are the exact same changes holy paladins got in alpha.

They obviously didn't like the insane tank hps druids are doing with only x2 rejuv + lifebloom, and they dislike cult + spring blossoms existing together. It's extremely obvious resto druid is going to get buffed, just like holy paladin was buffed after they butchered tower of radiance.

like charityx said, you would be pretty delusional to think rdruid were fine after they just nerfed shamans, disc priests, holy paladin, and holy priests.

And, you (and all other clueless MW Monks who seem more interested in invading this thread instead of discussing their own spec) are also confusing throughput numbers with mechanics and play style. Stuff like "insane tank hps druids" is a tuning issue, and is easily fixed by you know - changing the numbers on spells - without gutting the actual play style and class synergy itself. If they didn't like Cultivation and Spring Blossoms existing, why do you think the actively moved them to seperate talent rows several builds back? It's obvious why they did that - it's idiotic for two talents that effectively fill the exact same role to be on the same talent row. That is the opposite of their Legion talent philosophy. I fail to see any argument that you have made (here or elsewhere) about Druids being "ZOMG OP" that doesn't boil down to just overall HPS numbers, meaning none of this isn't something that could have been entirely fixed through tuning instead of butchering our talent tree for no good reason.

Also, it doesn't even necessarily matter what they do with Druid throughput. We don't have ridiculous things like 10% raid wide health buffs, totems that add extra battle rezzes, and DPS that gives you 30% of the damage of DPS while still doing healing on par with everyone else. Or, the tank healing of a Holy Paladin, now that ours has been gutted to complete dog shit. If we aren't tuned to do more HPS than classes with that excess utility, there is no place for the spec in the raid meta at this point. Of course, that's always been your selfish goal anyway.

[Supliftz]

And, you (and all other clueless MW Monks who seem more interested in invading this thread instead of discussing their own spec) are also confusing throughput numbers with mechanics and play style. Stuff like "insane tank hps druids" is a tuning issue, and is easily fixed by you know - changing the numbers on spells - without gutting the actual play style and class synergy itself. If they didn't like Cultivation and Spring Blossoms existing, why do you think the actively moved them to seperate talent rows several builds back? It's obvious why they did that - it's idiotic for two talents that effectively fill the exact same role to be on the same talent row. That is the opposite of their Legion talent philosophy. I fail to see any argument that you have made (here or elsewhere) about Druids being "ZOMG OP" that doesn't boil down to just overall HPS numbers, meaning none of this isn't something that could have been entirely fixed through tuning instead of butchering our talent tree for no good reason.

Simply just nerfing mastery doesn't change the fact that spring blossoms + cult together basically break your mastery by design. You can't realistically be rewarded for hot stacking when you have talents that amass a large amount hots for free. That's why mastery stacking resto druids were destroying everyone. I do believe however they shouldn't of nerfed spring blossoms + cult on top of nerfing mastery. One of those things should be reverted.

My main complaint about resto druids btw, was them doing great raid healing whilst dominating everyone (besides holy paladin) on tank healing. I had the same complaint about holy paladin early on in the alpha, and they were nerfed.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, it doesn't even necessarily matter what they do with Druid throughput. We don't have ridiculous things like 10% raid wide health buffs, totems that add extra battle rezzes, and DPS that gives you 30% of the damage of DPS while still doing healing on par with everyone else. Or, the tank healing of a Holy Paladin, now that ours has been gutted to complete dog shit. If we aren't tuned to do more HPS than classes with that excess utility, there is no place for the spec in the raid meta at this point. Of course, that's always been your selfish goal anyway.

Well I mean, druids can give away their innervates to disc priests (the best target for it atm, go do the numbers on a 20 man lights wrath and see how stupid it is), on top of having the best tank cd and the best raid cd.

previous to this build, druids were doing the same tank healing as a holy paladin, whilst bringing better raid healing/tank cd/utility/raid cd. but we didn't hear about that from rdruids ;^).

[Tiberria]

Simply just nerfing mastery doesn't change the fact that spring blossoms + cult together basically break your mastery by design. You can't realistically be rewarded for hot stacking when you have talents that amass a large amount hots for free. That's why mastery stacking resto druids were destroying everyone. I do believe however they shouldn't of nerfed spring blossoms + cult on top of nerfing mastery. One of those things should be reverted.

There is zero reason that spring blossoms and cultivation needs to break the overall class design or mastery. All of those things are tuning/numbers issues that can be addresses by adjusting the tuning of them. It's all numbers; they could have reduced the healing done by the SB/Cult HoTs, reduced the mastery scaling, and done any number of things to address it.

Also, why can't we be rewarded for HoT stacking when we get default HoTs? That is beyond idiotic? Doesn't every other healer get rewarded with mastery healing for doing things they should passively be doing to begin with? Holy Priests get rewarded with mastery for casting spells they would otherwise be casting, same as Mistweavers. Resto Shaman and Holy Paladins get rewarded for healing people at low health or positioning themselves non idiocally, both things that any healer should be doing? Why is this only an issue with the Druid mastery? When Chimaeron was a progression fight, no one said we needed to nerf the Shaman mastery because we can't reward them for casting on low health targets when the fight makes everyone at low health. This is the equivalent of making that argument. It's idiotic.

- - - Updated - - -

previous to this build, druids were doing the same tank healing as a holy paladin, whilst bringing better raid healing/tank cd/utility/raid cd. but we didn't hear about that from rdruids ;^).

Again, a NUMBERS ISSUE - before the tuning pass was ever really done. Let's not forget that you were the one that spent the entire WoD beta saying that Holy Paladins would be completely worthless and non viable and whining about how Druids were overpowered. That's the type of embarrassment that drawing conclusions on numbers before numbers tuning will bring upon you.

[Supliftz]

There is zero reason that spring blossoms and cultivation needs to break the overall class design or mastery. All of those things are tuning/numbers issues that can be addresses by adjusting the tuning of them. It's all numbers; they could have reduced the healing done by the SB/Cult HoTs, reduced the mastery scaling, and done any number of things to address it.

The two talents together meant you could stack mastery and do extremely competitive raid healing, and do insane tank healing. That's why it had to be changed. Like I said in my original post, I do agree they only should of hit 1 thing, not mega nerfed both. Blizzard did the same thing with tower of radiance nerfs for hpal (nerfed ef and then removed the mechanic).

It's extremely likely rdruid will get buffed back up from this point.

Also, why can't we be rewarded for HoT stacking when we get default HoTs? That is beyond idiotic? Doesn't every other healer get rewarded with mastery healing for doing things they should passively be doing to begin with? Holy Priests get rewarded with mastery for casting spells they would otherwise be casting, same as Mistweavers. Resto Shaman and Holy Paladins get rewarded for healing people at low health or positioning themselves non idiocally, both things that any healer should be doing? Why is this only an issue with the Druid mastery? When Chimaeron was a progression fight, no one said we needed to nerf the Shaman mastery because we can't reward them for casting on low health targets when the fight makes everyone at low health. This is the equivalent of making that argument. It's idiotic.

You can be rewarded for stacking hots. But you shouldn't be rewarded for talents that proc hots for free whilst you simply blanket the raid in rejuvs at old mastery numbers. 1 less hot whilst you mindlessly rejuv blanket is a big deal because mastery is less good for raid healing, which means you actually have to make a choice between mastery for tank healing, and haste/crit for raid healing. Previously you didn't have to make this choice, because mastery was the best regardless.

No one complained about shaman mastery because it was only overpowered for 1 fight, compared to druid mastery which was strong regardless of the fight context.

Again, a NUMBERS ISSUE - before the tuning pass was ever really done. Let's not forget that you were the one that spent the entire WoD beta saying that Holy Paladins would be completely worthless and non viable and whining about how Druids were overpowered. That's the type of embarrassment that drawing conclusions on numbers before numbers tuning will bring upon you.

l mean if you want to talk about wod beta. I'm pretty every hpal said after tower of radiance nerfs, hpals were bad. Druids were also overpowered in wod beta, same with holy priests. That's why they were nerfed by 20%.

It's irrelevant to talk about wod beta when talking about legion though I feel.

[theburned]

And you're beyond dense if you don't think these changes go so far over the top it's not even funny. They literally equate to something approaching a 50% overall nerf to Druid strength, and even if they balance throughput during the tuning pass, you still have to deal with the fact that the spec's playstyle and talent selection has literally been gutted with a 2x4. Pretty much, all because some idiot developer refuses to admit that this mastery was a terrible concept, never should have left the drafting table, and definitely has no business still being in pace. Just as an example, we are basically blocked from taking Germination at this point (because the talent is mathematically useless) and that completely changes the way the spec plays - and not in a good way. Our tank healing is now the worst of any healer as well because of this over reaction. But go ahead, keep deluding yourself into derailing threads and making snide remarks. The MW thread is that way. Go away.

50% please provide some arguement to why it would actually reach close to that, in a dungeon the only difference is cw vs spring blossoms, or perhaps the closer one which is spring blossoms + germination vs SotF/ToL + CW (or prosperity) + a rough 33% nerf to our maximum throughput.
In a raid though we got a buff to prosperity + SotF perhaps to a point where they feel valuable, and trading spring blossom or cultivation for ToL or sotf. Trading germination for prosperity or cenarion ward.
ToL might've been slightly nerfed due to germination being exclusive, but I think thats about it.

as for mastery it means 6% reduction, which in a raiding situation should be around 10%.
there is no way all these changes amount to 50%, or 40%


a nerf to lifebloom aswell, and is now just used for the ooc proc

[Tiberria]

50% please provide some arguement to why it would actually reach close to that, in a dungeon the only difference is cw vs spring blossoms, or perhaps the closer one which is spring blossoms + germination vs SotF/ToL + CW (or prosperity) + a rough 33% nerf to our maximum throughput.
In a raid though we got a buff to prosperity + SotF perhaps to a point where they feel valuable, and trading spring blossom or cultivation for ToL or sotf. Trading germination for prosperity or cenarion ward.
ToL might've been slightly nerfed due to germination being exclusive, but I think thats about it.

as for mastery it means 6% reduction, which in a raiding situation should be around 10%.
there is no way all these changes amount to 50%, or 40%


a nerf to lifebloom aswell, and is now just used for the ooc proc

If you look at it this way - if we were stacking mastery pre-nerf, we would have roughly 20% mastery rating by about early Nightmare gear levels, which is 20% extra healing done per HoT stack on a target.

1. We won't have Germination any more. That is 20% less healing on all targets that matter.
2. Instead of having both Cultivation and Spring Blossoms on almost any target taking meaningful damage or healing, we will now have at most 1 of those (if not neither in the event that Inner Peace becomes the stronger option). That's an additional 20% less healing on most relevant targets.
3. We will probably go from 4-5 HoT effects on most relevant targets to 2. Even on those remaining 2 HoTs, the mastery nerf is equivalent to losing another ~8% healing done if it was 8% per stack before.

That's a total of 48% of our healing on high priority targets (tanks, targets that we would stack HoTs on) - out the window by basic napkin math. I don't see whatever replaces Germination on T15 adding much healing to mitigate. CW is probably like 5% of my healing done in dungeons if I run it - and it will be less in raids. I don't see Abundance or Prosperity (possibly except the SoTF - 4 piece build) adding much more than that. Aside from that, all we gain is the fact that we probably will be taking Incarnation where we would have taken Cultivation (maybe a 5-10% buff?) - but probably not, because we still lose the Cultivation (or Spring Blossoms) HoT outright - and that was doing 7-10% of our healing in most raid test logs. We will also probably be allocating stat points out of mastery to something else, but that won't likely be much more than a wash. SoTF is already weaker than Incarnation in most situations on live, and it is nerfed by 33% in Legion relative to it's power on live (+50% to WG on 15 secs vs +75% to WG every 30 seconds). It's going to need you to take Prosperity (probably a throughput reduction over either of the other 2 L15 talents) and have 4 piece to even be on par with Incarnation.

Maybe 50% is an exaggeration, but I really don't see how this is less than a 35% overall nerf effectively. It's way over the top. What it hurts even more than the numbers impact is our overall viability/niche in a raid comp. Our tank healing is outright gutted - over a 50% nerf to it. We were previously competitive with (and often beating) Holy Paladins for a tank healing role. That gave us a strong niche to fill. These changes have essentially ceded the tank healing role to Paladins (putting them back to having a guaranteed raid spot). Shaman are guaranteed a spot as well with their ridiculous unique utility, and you're going to take a Disc Priest over any other healer if they can perform the healing role at all competently because that extra damage is a very big deal on progression. Without being able to fill that Paladin role, plus have a bit more flexibility, we are effectively back to being a generic raid/HoT healer just like Mistweavers and Holy Priests. It means the spec is back to competing for that 4th healing spot with 3 other specs, while 3 specs are likely locked into spots. It's like a complete repeat of the WoD fiasco; without the top notch tank healing, we no longer have that argument to always want a Resto Druid in the way that Paladins, Disc, and Shaman all have.

[theburned]

If you look at it this way - if we were stacking mastery pre-nerf, we would have roughly 20% mastery rating by about early Nightmare gear levels, which is 20% extra healing done per HoT stack on a target.

1. We won't have Germination any more. That is 20% less healing on all targets that matter.
2. Instead of having both Cultivation and Spring Blossoms on almost any target taking meaningful damage or healing, we will now have at most 1 of those (if not neither in the event that Inner Peace becomes the stronger option). That's an additional 20% less healing on most relevant targets.
3. We will probably go from 4-5 HoT effects on most relevant targets to 2. Even on those remaining 2 HoTs, the mastery nerf is equivalent to losing another ~8% healing done if it was 8% per stack before.

That's a total of 48% of our healing on high priority targets (tanks, targets that we would stack HoTs on) - out the window by basic napkin math. I don't see whatever replaces Germination on T15 adding much healing to mitigate. CW is probably like 5% of my healing done in dungeons if I run it - and it will be less in raids. I don't see Abundance or Prosperity (possibly except the SoTF - 4 piece build) adding much more than that. Aside from that, all we gain is the fact that we probably will be taking Incarnation where we would have taken Cultivation (maybe a 5-10% buff?) - but probably not, because we still lose the Cultivation (or Spring Blossoms) HoT outright - and that was doing 7-10% of our healing in most raid test logs. We will also probably be allocating stat points out of mastery to something else, but that won't likely be much more than a wash. SoTF is already weaker than Incarnation in most situations on live, and it is nerfed by 33% in Legion relative to it's power on live (+50% to WG on 15 secs vs +75% to WG every 30 seconds). It's going to need you to take Prosperity (probably a throughput reduction over either of the other 2 L15 talents) and have 4 piece to even be on par with Incarnation.

Maybe 50% is an exaggeration, but I really don't see how this is less than a 35% overall nerf effectively. It's way over the top. What it hurts even more than the numbers impact is our overall viability/niche in a raid comp. Our tank healing is outright gutted - over a 50% nerf to it. We were previously competitive with (and often beating) Holy Paladins for a tank healing role. That gave us a strong niche to fill. These changes have essentially ceded the tank healing role to Paladins (putting them back to having a guaranteed raid spot). Shaman are guaranteed a spot as well with their ridiculous unique utility, and you're going to take a Disc Priest over any other healer if they can perform the healing role at all competently because that extra damage is a very big deal on progression. Without being able to fill that Paladin role, plus have a bit more flexibility, we are effectively back to being a generic raid/HoT healer just like Mistweavers and Holy Priests. It means the spec is back to competing for that 4th healing spot with 3 other specs, while 3 specs are likely locked into spots. It's like a complete repeat of the WoD fiasco; without the top notch tank healing, we no longer have that argument to always want a Resto Druid in the way that Paladins, Disc, and Shaman all have.

Now first of all if we were stacking mastery before we would be between 25-30% mastery (28% myself, 22% after the nerf.)
We are at most losing 2 stacks of hots, there is no way its more. Using 4 stacks as the norm on high prio targets now and 6 stacks pre nerf, this is the difference between 188% healing and 268%, so assuming the amount of healing stays the same to those high priority targets, the healing they receive is reduced by 30-31%. (31% for targets without lifebloom.) CW does more healing than rejuv + spring blossoms though so it should be a good assumption, falls behind on 2 targets though.
So on 2 targets you can expect about 30% healing reduction and on the rest of the raid 10% + 15% (an upper floor from 0.5 mastery stacks from spring blossoms, and germination doesnt really add many stacks to the raid above the 2 targets.) as for throughput from spring blossoms it should be around the same SotF or incarnation would add.
this would leave it at most 30% nerf, this is at high amounts of mastery. (and quite a lot of good will in the arguements.)

If it interests you some logs post-patch, with CW + SotF (first dungeon with ToL, didnt feel good so stuck with SotF)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ealing&boss=-2
Logs showing CW at around 10-15% (peaking at almost 30% of my healing at certain packs.

[Supliftz]

so what you're saying wishkin, is that this isn't the end of the world? ;O

[theburned]

so what you're saying wishkin, is that this isn't the end of the world? ;O

No, I am saying it's too early to decide, we havent had any chance to test out this in raids yet, which is where it matters. 30% however is well above what I'd expect us to be nerfed by, but until we actually get to test raids its all going to be speculation.
Aswell as this is just number speculation, and is not very relevant as long as they make changes for live, as for playstyle, I personally like the change to prosperity, for the combination with SotF.
The main issue though comes from mastery being a less valuable stat, and that we may shift from wanting it, to hating any piece with it, thus slauthering any gameplay it provides.

As for dungeons, I believe we are still viable, which would be weird if we weren't considering we still have a mastery increasing our healing by almost 100%.

[Supliftz]

Balancing to dungeon power really isn't that surprsing. Mistweavers were just nerfed because of dungeon performance. It shows they are attempting to balance classes in 5 mans.

[theburned]

T SoTF is already weaker than Incarnation in most situations on live, and it is nerfed by 33% in Legion relative to it's power on live (+50% to WG on 15 secs vs +75% to WG every 30 seconds). It's going to need you to take Prosperity (probably a throughput reduction over either of the other 2 L15 talents) and have 4 piece to even be on par with Incarnation.

This simply is not true, in legion every minute you get 20 (7+7+6 sec from flourish) seconds of +75% buffed WGs, while in WoD you get +50% on 28 seconds of WG. Prosperity adds 2/5ths of another 7 seconds of WG, leaving us at 22,8 seconds and also much more reliable, this puts it at 22% stronger than WoD's SotF.

[stormgust]

As for dungeons, I believe we are still viable, which would be weird if we weren't considering we still have a mastery increasing our healing by almost 100%.

This statement isn't entirely true, it's 100% relative to our healing, but once you account for conversion/base mastery, it's really just about 13-15% over other healers at 20% mastery, for slightly (resp. considerably) more work (bracket being for raids, with a high chance that the usual outcome would be us tagging 7-8% behind other healers throughput wise due to getting nowhere close to the intended HoT average)

Balancing to dungeon power really isn't that surprsing. Mistweavers were just nerfed because of dungeon performance. It shows they are attempting to balance classes in 5 mans.

Mistweavers have individual tuning knobs though, so you can tune 5man without heavily impacting talent and raid performance. The resto druid mastery though doesn't allow that - a mastery nerf alone would not be enough to reign in 5man performance, unless you effectively kill it for that (we'd be looking at something like 900-1000 rating per % to keep it in check for small groups), so the only option they had was to shuffle around talents, effectively removing any choice we may have had.

Really, the only good thing this round of nerfs and changes brought was, is showing that Abundance fails at all levels (for everyone but manaleaf, who for some reason thinks it boosts our tankhealing noticeable) and Inner Peace isn't going to be much better of, if the other two are required to have mastery perform on par.