[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Teleros]

So guys what has NOT been talked about in any changes is the consistent alternations to JV.

I'm not seeing any change in the Wowhead spell data. Still AP * 8.

As Thete said, it's just the different formula that's behind it. TV will scale faster in general as it's based on weapon damage though.

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My fellow pvp Rets, let me introduce you ur next pvp spec ull play in legion; Prot.
Swifty (he is TERRIBLE in pvp) in a video below just randomly made a Port Pally, after recent nerf patch on beta to prots, and just dominating kids in a duels/BGs, check this out pretty funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6O-LWwcP-M

For what it's worth, that was in the last build.

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Frost DK, I'm coming!

You really hate being mobile, don't you .

Also: where are those prot nerfes, they were talking about? That one talent? Pfff...

Prot paladins are fine.
-Kalgan, whilst playing his tankadin in PvP.

[Snegovik]

One could assume.^^
No, but mobility means not so much to me. It musst be a melee, it must be fluid and I don't play leather classes...for reasons.
Frost has: fast paced rotation, ok-ish aoe, Death Strike (procs after every kill), Death Grip...that's enough for me.

U forgot to add that on Live frost is one of the best 1v1 dps classes , u like to be OP =), its ok, we all do.

[Snegovik]

;-p
I almost never PvP. And when I do, I'm better with my ret than my dk. Should say everything about my PvP-skills.

its ok =) I am the same way, i play Enh, Fury/Arms as my alts sometimes, and My Ret is by far the best when it comes to 1v1; however, in rated arena u can't compare Ret to those 2 DPS classes. Its like matching a hungry tiger vs tied up sheep

[siccora]

This is mainly a ret discussion, it's meant for all specs but we have two other threads dedicated to the other two so people mainly talk about ret in here. Ask away.

ok good, thanks. i want to level up as ret because i dont like it as holy. so with 102 i took the ashbringer Q chain and now i run around with that mighty sword feeling super weak. i am nearly doing the same damage as a holy paladin. i run around with Final Verdict, The Fires of Justice, Blade of Wrath and Divine Purpose. Maybe i dont get the new ret playstyle at all but what i just do is to get up to 5 holy power, then judge and then try to squeeze as many templar's as possible in that little 6 sec window. after that i build up again to 6 and wait for judgement to come off CD.

[Deleted]

Yeah, they got pretty giant nerfs as well.

You guys need to open your eyes. Warriors at least are fine. Fury now got a 30sec bloodbath they can pop with bladestorm and arms got bladestorm baseline. Oh yes... but i'm sure they will cry a river cause they are smart on what they claim. They got new talents to compensate for this. We got a kick in the teeth and in the balls with the TV and BoW nerfs on top of the AoE and artifact and mastery nerfs. Can't wait to see more of how Blizz will destroy this spec. It's a really bad joke.

Not that i think it will solve anything but i sent them a twitter msg to read the feedback forum and make the spec fun. The numbers can always be re-adjusted but the real problems are still here, and i don't see how this spec can be any good like this. Only on single target at best.

[Daralii]

You guys need to open your eyes. Warriors at least are fine. Fury now got a 30sec bloodbath they can pop with bladestorm and arms got bladestorm baseline. Oh yes... but i'm sure they will cry a river cause they are smart on what they claim. They got new talents to compensate for this. We got a kick in the teeth and in the balls with the TV and BoW nerfs. Can't wait to see more of how Blizz will destroy this spec. It's a really bad joke.

Too bad bladestorm got completely dumpstered.

[Deleted]

Too bad bladestorm got completely dumpstered.

It didn't. It can be poped with bloodbath and avatar as fury and AoE collosus smash as arms. It will still melt faces.

[Deleted]

Well damn, although i have beta and everything, i cant post in beta forums it seems. Says that i dont have any characters.

Maybe its better that way, as i have no nice words for them

But anyway, seems like those changes to make stuff useful and more rounded up means that they change the name of terrible talent, nerf some other and call it a day... at least when it comes to "trash can" spec.

[Deleted]

Haha, just read the post from that Cluelesstalon-guy about talent changes. Man, we are f*cked, they literally admit, that they don' t know, what they are doing.

Edit:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745254501

No question about ret specifically. They had a vague concept for us in early development and stapled (note: i relay mean staple in the sense of just temporary attaching something not proper integration work )it on us. I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they wanted to get back to ret at a later point doing it right.
For the other speccs their decision was rather sound to build rows with vastly different talents for vastly different situations. Distinguish players by their knowledge to use the right skill set for any given situation. That worked well with the "out of combat = feel free to respecc" attitude. That they have to back paddle on this now is the retarded implementation of these respecc books. @Thete covered this on one of his videos.
That they do it that late in beta shows to me that either person i charge is crap at planning out the development or that there had been some serve miss communications while conceptualizing Legion crafting professions and general game play. Read glyphs are gone -> inscription useless (Thetes vid again and I agree).

Now what does this mean for us? Well "we are fucked" pretty much hits it. Since we only got a concept for a specc and since they won´t have time to look at it again we will have to work with an unfinished specc.

[Teleros]

Well damn, although i have beta and everything, i cant post in beta forums it seems. Says that i dont have any characters.

You need a US account.

We've moved away from talent rows containing 3 flavors of the same thing, to choices that are impactful in completely different ways. We're not going back on that, but trying out differences as extreme as we were has revealed some new problems. In many cases, the difference between talents was so stark in common situations that it became more of a 'test', and less of a choice.

...

However, we don't want to go back to a world where a talent row is about picking which slightly different flavor of AoE you want. We've opted to rearrange things such that you have more choices that mix generally useful talents vs the more specialized talents. Hopefully that line between the theoretical best talent and the others will be a bit more blurry now, and the talent you do choose won't feel like a wasted talent point in many situations.

Hopefully that line between the theoretical best talent and the others will be a bit more blurry now, and the talent you do choose won't feel like a wasted talent point in many situations.

/headdesk

I get what they're trying to do, but... well it ain't gonna work. Let's look at the Legion Ret tree ATM (PvE POV)...

T15: Single target + cleave, or single target, or "guild app declined"
T30: AE choices, we hope...
T45: Irrelevant
T60: Ask SimCraft x2, or "guild app declined"
T75: DPS or "guild app declined"
T90: Trollface.jpg
T100: Ask SimCraft x2, or "guild app declined"

In terms of AE damage, you have T15 and T30, that's it. Whilst in theory Consecration might be good (405% AP is nothing to sniff about for AE damage), it takes 9secs to do that damage, whereas what you want is to blow the mobs up now. Which more or less makes Final Verdict the go-to choice unless it's an add-free fight (and even then it's not like you won't be screwed if you take FV over ES).

The L30 talents offer some interesting choices, at least in principle, but I'm sure SimCraft will be along to tell us which is best for PvE (and Vanguards or someone will tell us what to pick for PvP if we're not sure or are new to Ret PvP :P ). I also very much doubt the line between "the best" and "the rest" will be blurry, to use Celestalon's words. Blizzard have historically never been very good at doing that: why do cookie-cutter builds exist after all?

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This is why these messy talent trees don't work very well. For the odd talent it's okay (eg +DPS, +DPS, +survival, where the last is aimed at PvPers), but the rest of the time it's really limiting.

Let's suppose you want to add talents that increase resource generation for a spec. In WoD and MoP you could have a whole row for it, and give various options: passive regen, active regen, and RNG regen, for example. But in Legion you'd throw those three talents all over the place, meaning someone could pick two or even three of them.

So you cut out one of them, and put the other two on the same row anyway because having both is just OP, and now you need a 3rd talent to somehow compete with them. Except that unless you're very lucky and make it only better if you are a skilled player, it'll be a simple case of being better or worse than the resource generation options. So really it'll either be a choice between the two resource generating options (until SimCraft says "this is best"), or it'll be a test to see if you know to avoid the two resource options.

Look at the Level 90 Ret talents: you have zero baseline mobility, so realistically you're going to need to pick Divine Steed or Seal of Light.

And finally, I notice that despite the "no more themed rows" stuff, druids still have their "Affinity" row in place, and CC-only rows are still a thing (see paladins, shamans, druids, blah blah).

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As an aside, I liked this bit from the first comment:

I've said many times before that talents should enhance the spec, not enable it. They should add tools which help the spec perform better, but not be necessary for it to function entirely, or else you become locked into choices with no alternatives.

Ohai Greater Judgement. And SoL/Divine Steed.

[Deleted]

Stay tuned for another bunch of fixes in 7.1, 7.2, ...

That worked well in MoP and to a lesser degree in WoD but then we had at least somewhat working speccs. In MoP beta we were in a really good place, they just decided to fuck up with the unwarranted nerfs 2 weeks before live. I WoD we knew beforehand that we meh and okwith the PvP set, and true to themselfs the gave us a kick in the balls 2 weeks into the content and curb stomped is not much later with the set nerf.
Since we already are in a shit place even before they take out their frustration on us on their final round.

I mean, when the vast majority of rets gets their fingers on their chars come Legion, the forums will be overflowing with sh*tstorms. We all know, where that leads to.

Nowhere? Do you remember the forums in the 2 weeks before MoP went live?

And we all do not understand, why they didn't give us a proper spec in the first place.

Tinfoil head says they do have an agenda against us. Jaded me says crappy time planning, miss communication and general lack of pressure since paladin population is relatively high anyway.

The clues and suggestions are all there...they just have to read. None of the devs can tell me, that playing ret in beta is fun. Maybe ok-ish, but definitely less fun than WoD. And that is all that counts.

If it fits their agenda or protects the company they will lie to your face with no regrets, not thinking twice and not even the slightest bit of bad conscious.

[garonne]

Haha, just read the post from that Cluelesstalon-guy about talent changes. Man, we are f*cked, they literally admit, that they don' t know, what they are doing.

Edit:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745254501

this is because of the stringent talent swap cost. it was too harsh for several classes and such they either had to reduce the cost or rearrange the talents to not be so huge of a gap

- - - Updated - - -

It didn't. It can be poped with bloodbath and avatar as fury and AoE collosus smash as arms. It will still melt faces.

you could always (besides bloodbath which is only 20% damage) do that before. and its a 1.5 cd. damage reduced by half and cd increased by 50%, that is A SIZABLE NERF!!!

[Deleted]

this is because of the stringent talent swap cost. it was too harsh for several classes and such they either had to reduce the cost or rearrange the talents to not be so huge of a gap

Exactly! People had to make choices and adapt their playstyle to the needs of the raid. God forbid that we have some kind of specialization... where would we end up when the mage or warrior can´t be top of everything due to talent selection... Such heresy!
Sarcasm aside I would have liked to see something like that. We do have 2 add phases where we need some really strong aor but we will have also have to bust through that 5% boss health before xyz happens. Warrior and rogue skill AE and blow everything up that`s smaller than the boss but for the rest of the fight they do medioric dmg. While the arcane mage and affli wl just burst on the boss to make sure those 5% are gone when they need to.
Problem is the arcane mage cries "I can´t top AOE!" and the warrior "I´m not top on the Boss!" and blizzard follows suite and cuts diversity for the sake of the crybabies.

you could always (besides bloodbath which is only 20% damage) do that before. and its a 1.5 cd. damage reduced by half and cd increased by 50%, that is A SIZABLE NERF!!!

do we really have to discuss warrior numbers? I mean mechanic wise Bladestorm will always be superior to our AE so why do we care for how much? Being reliably competitive on AOE Burst will never be a ret thing.

[Ulthane]

@Teleros the damage of JV has been changing each build

[garonne]

do we really have to discuss warrior numbers? I mean mechanic wise Bladestorm will always be superior to our AE so why do we care for how much? Being reliably competitive on AOE Burst will never be a ret thing.

because someone brought it up;looking at current numbers (until it gets nerfed) we have equal to better aoe in wake of ashes and ashes to ashes.

[Deleted]

because someone brought it up;looking at current numbers (until it gets nerfed) we have equal to better aoe in wake of ashes and ashes to ashes.

really? were we really close enough to be ahead now? This would be a first then
In that case all who have a beta access enjoy our moments of light in the darkness our specc is right now. But on the other side don´t drink to much from this cup filled with sweet poison.
As @garonne said the nerf will come and once the dev team is done with our only good major trait it will only be a broken shell of was it once was sobbing in the shower trying to feel clean again.

[Deleted]

I'm curious to know why Celestalon posted what he did, but my rather measured response is up: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4501?page=2#31

But, yes, not quite sure what he's trying to say other than screw gameplay, we want all talents to be equally meaningless. Apparently 'flavour' has taken over from 'class fantasy' for a while.

[Teleros]

the damage of JV has been changing each build

I doubt that's due to them tweaking the numbers for JV though; more likely it's other (a) gear changes, (b) talents/traits interacting oddly with it. I mean, Wowhead lists all the spell changes each build, and JV is never included, so... yeah, it's not JV that's changing.

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Not a bad response Thete .

[Ulthane]

I doubt that's due to them tweaking the numbers for JV though; more likely it's other (a) gear changes, (b) talents/traits interacting oddly with it. I mean, Wowhead lists all the spell changes each build, and JV is never included, so... yeah, it's not JV that's changing.

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Not a bad response Thete .

It is JV thats changing, i literally have seen the numbers change each build on characters i dont actually do anything with just to see if the number changes.

JV on both a fresh 100 and 110 has changed without me getting any different gear multiple times.

[Anardel]

Celestalon's post is a solid evidence that Blizzard doesn't know its own class design direction, they're shooting to everyone everywhere hoping to hit the bullseye with one fortunate shot.
The lasts changes to ret spec were not ret changes but global changes (like AoE dmg reduction to all specs). At least he said that this changes are going to require a cascade of other related changes.